Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[face2face]

His death quite proves Jesus is not God because God cannot die. And there is only God the Father in Scripture.

Jesus didn't really die
Jesus couldnt really be tempted to sin
Jesus was incapable of sin
Jesus wasn't a high priest taken from among men
Jesus didn't allow God to remove the law of sin and death from his own body (curtain rent in his flesh)
Jesus didn't pass through the Heavens into the Holiest of Holies for the first time on our behalf

It's mind blowing the foolishness of men that they would write themselves out of the atoning sacrifice of their Christ...and what for? So they can make a god in their own image after their own likeness!

Since the beginning of time, men have sought to assert their own significance through the forging of steel or the crafting of words.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Appeal to Ignorance. We are not required to abandon our god-given reasoning mind to embrace spiritual truth.

This is a good point Wrangler and reminds me of Pauls words "Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it" Romans 2:14

This idea may even take yours further!

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

Spiritual truth of scripture can't be apprehended with logic.

Appeal to Ignorance. We are not required to abandon our god-given reasoning mind to embrace spiritual truth.

This is a good point Wrangler and reminds me of Pauls words "Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it" Romans 2:14

This idea may even take yours further!

Honestly, these trinitarians have no shame in rejecting logic to embrace mystical dualism needed for their heresy … I can’t (logically) explain the trinity but just know - even though it contradicts Scripture - that it is spiritually true, if not logically true.

Pitiful IDOLATRY.

 

[face2face]

Honestly, these trinitarians have no shame in rejecting logic to embrace mystical dualism needed for their heresy … I can’t (logically) explain the trinity but just know - even though it contradicts Scripture - that it is spiritually true, if not logically true.

Pitiful IDOLATRY.

It's interesting how some, like Brakelite, have become convinced that the Trinity has humanistic origins, yet even he hasn't fully explored this idea. Over the years, I've often wondered whether it's worth earnestly contending for the faith or simply leaving others to their own beliefs.

If you were to remove the scales from their eyes and reveal everything that must be rejected in order to accept the Trinity, it would be a day of great lamentation.

F2F

 

[RLT63]

I did not say anything about the Holy Spirit. You may be thinking of someone else.

And born of a virgin.....how?

I'm not continuing a conversation with someone who claims that God had sex with Mary in the missionary position

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I should mention that Genesis 10:5 states that the descendants of Noah dispersed through the region "with their own tongues." Thus, there were multiple languages prior to the tower, EVEN ACCORDING TO GENESIS! So much for Genesis 11:1's declaration that the whole earth had one language!

As Revelation is not in chronological order, other passages are confused to be as well.
In reference to Gen. 10:5:
"As is true with many accounts in Scripture, the events are not listed in chronological order. Genesis tells of the disbursement of the different language groups throughout the world. It is a broad outline of where the various language groups settled. Genesis 11, on the other hand, explains how these different languages came about-through the events at the tower of Babel. Thus we have no contradiction." Don Stewart
There was one language for at least the first 2k years.

 

[ProDeo]

Unmade they say. They also believe that 2 spirits were implanted at Jesus' conception, one that existed from some place from some being or thing, and the other a brand new human spirit given by the Father, by his Spirit. I wonder actually how they would both get along with each other if all this sci-fi charade were true? Like a psychotic freak show. The human mind of Jesus would be so chaotic, and he would be a severe mental case! He would hear things buzzing and torturing his mind, day and night...

Blasphemy.

Matt 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
Matt 3:17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

 

[The Learner]

We can express the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity (three “persons” in one God) as a set of propositions in this way:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
7. The Holy Spirit is not the Son.

For simplicity’s sake we need consider only 1 through 4 (for 5 through 7 will stand or fall on the same logical analysis we apply to 1 through 4):

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.

The difficulty in defending the Trinity has always been that these four propositions are, as a group, logically inconsistent when analyzed from the standpoint of the three basic rules of logical equivalence: self-identity (everything is identical to itself, i.e., x = x); symmetry (if two things are equivalent, they are equivalent in any order, i.e., if x = y, then y = x); and transitivity (if one thing is the same as another and that other is the same as a third, then the first is the same as the third, i.e., if x = y and y = z then x = z). The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity fares ill in this analysis.

To make them logically consistent, it is tempting to sacrifice one of the four tenets – and most early heresies took this tack. Thus, Arius sacrificed the third one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
3′. Therefore the Son is not God.

and Sabellius sacrificed the fourth one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4′. Therefore the Father is the Son.

Both Arius’ argument and Sabellius’ argument are logically consistent because, unlike the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, they satisfy all three of the aforementioned principles of logical consistency. Arius and Sabellius, although approaching the inconsistency from different perspectives, each preferred rationality to irrationality―even if it meant preferring heresy to orthodoxy.

Now, we Trinitarians have two choices. We can simply throw up our hands and declare that God does not have to play by the rules of logical consistency, thereby forever assigning the Trinity to the status of unfathomable mystery. Or, we can allow for identity and equivalence to be relative to their contexts. Thus, “Robert is good” can be consistent with “Robert is not good” as long as a different sense of “good” holds for each proposition (e.g., he is a good theologian; he is not a good golfer.)

To say that “The Father is not the Son” is likewise context-dependent and predicate-specific. One can maintain without contradiction both that “The Father is not the same person as the Son” and “The Father is the same God as the Son” by separating out personhood from Godhood. How to tease them apart is the ultimate challenge of orthodox Trinitarian theology.

Who want to take a deep dive with me here?

Oh no, not math again

 

[RedFan]

As Revelation is not in chronological order, other passages are confused to be as well.
In reference to Gen. 10:5:
"As is true with many accounts in Scripture, the events are not listed in chronological order. Genesis tells of the disbursement of the different language groups throughout the world. It is a broad outline of where the various language groups settled. Genesis 11, on the other hand, explains how these different languages came about-through the events at the tower of Babel. Thus we have no contradiction." Don Stewart
There was one language for at least the first 2k years.

Would you be quoting THIS Don Stewart?

 

[Lizbeth]

Appeal to Ignorance. We are not required to abandon our god-given reasoning mind to embrace spiritual truth.

1Co 2:13-16

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Rom 8:7-8

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[APAK]

Blasphemy.

Matt 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
Matt 3:17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

I hope you are not that shallow-minded and think what I posted and you response is analogous or similar? I hope not.

I spoke hypothetically, although Trinitarians believe it, of two internal spirits, intrinsically, compromising the essence of the man Jesus, that is impossible. Scripture indicates that the spirit of God resided in Jesus' human spirit that the Father, along with his body, both made upon his conception.

This is the thing, from you post, the Spirit of God empowered Jesus after his baptism, eventhough he was already resident in Jesus from birth or before. He added more power...to now perform miracles..

And this leads me logically into a similar supplemental subject that you should enjoy, although you won't, as my last post.

-------follow closely and know the difference between the residence of different spirits versus being born with 2 different spirits/natures that is impossible...
//
Trinitarian logic on display....once again

(Joh 10:30) I and the Father are one.

Trinitarians and Binitarians mean Jesus is divine, a deity, the same as the Father, along with the separate reclusive Holy Spirit, period, and no further questions.

----------------------------------

Scripture says otherwise:
Four different times at least, Jesus made mention of he being one with his Father, and then also with us. They are of the same subject.
Jesus was in his Father when he performed miracle works. The disciples and later many others were in Christ in the same/similar power of the Father's spirit of power. Today genuine believers are in Christ' spirit and because Jesus is in his Father's spirit we are also in the Father' spirit. We are all in one and the Father is in all.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, even as also you were called in the one hope of your calling.
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

(Joh 14:10) Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not from myself; but the Father abiding in me does His works.
(Joh 14:11) Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the very works' sake.
(Joh 14:16) And I will ask the Father, and He shall give you another comforter, that he may be with you for ever-
(Joh 14:17) the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive. For it neither sees him nor knows him. You truly know him, for he abides with you and shall be in you.
(Joh 14:18) I will not leave you desolate as orphans. I will come to you.
(Joh 14:19) Yet a little while, and the world sees me no more; but you will see me. Because I live, you shall live also.
(Joh 14:20) In that day, you shall truly know that I am in my Father, and you in me and I in you.
(Joh 17:11) I am no more in the world; but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them whom You have given me in Your Name, that they may be one, even as we are one.
(Joh 17:21) that they may all be one, even as You, Father, are in me and I in You, that they may also be one in us; that the world may believe You did send me.
(Joh 17:22) And the glory which You have given me, I have given to them, that they may be one, even as we are one.
(Joh 17:23) I in them and You in me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know You did send me and that You have loved them just as You loved me.

So, therefore, and further regarding the Pharisees ignorance of their own scriptures and their effort to maintain their Law of Judaism and the control of the people:

Pharisees Misinterpret Jesus' Work as most Trinitarians do today. The former did not believe Jesus was God only a man. The latter think he is God, period. At least the Pharisees knew better.

The Pharisees viewed Jesus as claiming to be God due to his teachings and actions, which they perceived as equating himself with God Jesus often spoke of his close relationship with God, his Father, and his role in salvation (John 10:30 – “I and the Father are one”). This was seen as a claim of divine status, eventhough it was not possible, and which the Pharisees considered blasphemy.

For example, Jesus said in John 5:18, “For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”

The Pharisees were deeply concerned about maintaining the strict monotheism of Judaism, and any suggestion that Jesus might be considered divine or on par with God was a direct challenge to their beliefs, and even the control of the people.

Additionally, Jesus’ miracles and healings were seen as further evidence of his potential divinity, and that was not really the case at all. The Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub, the prince of demons, rather than by the power of God, indicating their belief that Jesus was claiming supernatural powers that only God could possess.

In summary, the Pharisees thought Jesus was claiming to be God because of his teachings about his relationship with the Father and his performance of miracles, which they interpreted as potential divine acts that only God, the Father could do. And the irony is that the Father was the only one who actually could perform miracles still at that time.

(Joh 10:26) But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.
(Joh 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me.
(Joh 10:28) And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
(Joh 10:30) I and the Father are one.
(Joh 10:33) The Jews answered him: For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself as God!

//

BL

(Eph 4:4) There is one body and one Spirit, even as also you were called in the one hope of your calling.
(Eph 4:5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(Eph 4:6) one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (ONLY IN GENUINE BELIEVERS OF COURSE)

Blessings....

 

[face2face]

1Co 2:13-16

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Rom 8:7-8

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

I hope you would understand this mind is developed over a period of time. Milk --> Meat...we have an High Priest who can deal with the ignorant of mind. But ultimately you are correct! Our spiritual reasoning ought to be on the Spirit and our actions should follow.
F2F

 

[face2face]

This is the thing, from you post, the Spirit of God empowered Jesus after his baptism, eventhough he was already resident in Jesus from birth or before. He added more power...to now perform miracles..

I'm glad you caught that! In this forum T beleivers say Jesus was born with the full measure of God's Power which is not so.

Did you ever notice the Lord included John in his Baptism and to fullfill all righteousness?

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

Then notice Hebrews 2:10-11

10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God (Yahweh), for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer (Jesus) of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. 11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters

We see him as one of ourselves, though verily in his quiet dignity, the majesty of heaven and earth. We see ‘the captain of our salvation,’ but ‘made perfect through sufferings.’ (Not Perfect like the Father!)

Consider this fact @Wrangler @ProDeo @David in NJ

Jesus being born in the Spirit and having the Spirit without measure, did not of itself make Jesus Perfect! He was raised up out of a fallen line to demonstrate the obedience to that Spirit!

He is ‘a man of sorrows;’ of ‘travail of soul;’ of bitterness and grief, of strong crying and tears, offering prayers and supplications to Him that was able to save, and was heard in that he feared (Heb 5:7-9).

In this we see that ‘both he (Jesus) that sanctifieth, and they (the saints) who are sanctified, are all of one’ – one Father, one stock, one experience: ‘for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren…"

God calls no-one brethren!

A recognition of this fact helps us to take our part in that bowing of the knee and confessing of the tongue which God requires of all flesh towards His Son Jesus Christ.

Again, this bring the Master close to us because only he can mediate the things of God, between God and Man, even the Man Christ Jesus.

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

Since the Bible reveals that God orchestrated history to place Jesus at the focal point and elevate him to the highest authority, then the Fall of Adam is included in God's plan.

God doesn’t really have “plans” per se….he has a purpose that he outlined in the beginning……he told the first humans to ….”fill the earth” with their children…..logically “the earth” was not just the garden, but a long range purpose to have the earth filled with human beings.

Were humans designed to live for so long and then grow old and die? Can you find me any natural cause of death mentioned to Adam?

Death was only mentioned as a punishment for disobedience…..so again logically, if they had not disobeyed, they never would have died…..living forever in paradise on earth was God’s first purpose for the human race.
Is there Scripture to back that up?

Gen 3:22-24….
”The Lord God said, “Since man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God sent him away from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove man out and stationed the cherubim and the flaming, whirling sword east of the garden of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life.” (HCSB)

There were two trees in the garden….the eating of one was life giving…there other incurred death.
Which one did the humans choose? And therefore which one were they denied?

Where were humans designed to “live forever”? It wasn’t in heaven….and no human needed to go to heaven….nor would God have to send his son to earth to die, if Adam had not thrown us all under the bus.

In John chapter one, the term "logos" means "plan," "promise," or "script."

The “Word of God” can mean a few different things….

“of speech

1. a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
2. what someone has said
   1. a word
   2. the sayings of God
   3. decree, mandate or order
   4. of the moral precepts given by God
   5. Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
   6. what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim

The “word of God” can be the written word, the spoken word, or as a title for Jesus, “one who speaks for God” like Aaron spoke for Moses.….Like an angel spoke for Yahweh in Gen 18.

I agree that Jesus is our mediator. But Jesus taught his disciples to pray directly to the Father.

He taught us to pray to the Father in his name….or under his God given authority. (John 16:23; Matt 28:18)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Would you be quoting THIS Don Stewart?

Yes, just borrowing random commentaries from scholars smarter than I.

Here's a few more all saying the same thing.
"Every one after his tongue, i.e. according to their several languages, into which they were divided at Babel. By which it appears that this division, though mentioned before, was not executed till after the confusion of languages at Babel". Matthew Poole

"Divided in their lands; every one after his tongue. Indicating a time posterior to the building of Babel (Genesis 11:1)". Pulpit

"everyone after his tongue, after their families, in their nations;

• this shows, that what is said concerning the division of countries to the sons of Japheth is by way of anticipation; and that, though thus related, was not done till after the confusion of languages, since the partition was made according to the different languages of men; those that were of the same language went and dwelt together, the several nations of them, and the several families in those nations; by which it appears that this was done by consultation, with great care and wisdom, ranging the people according to their tongues; of which nations were formed, and with them were taken the several families they consisted of." John Gill

Gen. 10 is just a genealogy of many generations of Noah's sons that spread throughout the world it's a summarized outline. Then Gen. 11 goes back and fills in particular details. You should know this was a style of writing. Gen. 1 and Gen 2 are organized that way. Not chronological.
The Flood to Abraham was 300-350 years. So as Noah's son's families migrated and grew, one language remained until probably 300 years after the Flood, Babylon grew to probably tens of thousands by then - do the math.

 

[face2face]

God doesn’t really have “plans” per se….he has a purpose that he outlined in the beginning……he told the first humans to ….”fill the earth” with their children…..logically “the earth” was not just the garden, but a long range purpose to have the earth filled with human beings.

@CadyandZoe

God's "plan" was in place prior to the creation of this age.

Acts 2:23 speaks to God's plan

This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

In the Mind of God Jesus was offered for a sacrifice for sins before the Creative acts began.

God (Yahweh) utilized the tools of the flesh to fulfill the purposes of the Spirit. His will in Christ was carried out through the sinful actions of evil men. Yet, to ensure His beloved Son could complete the sacrifice needed for mankind's redemption, God maintained control, even though the flesh could not comprehend this.

The divine plan for reconciliation was established by Yahweh from the very beginning, necessitating a perfect "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8; Gen. 3:21) to offer a covering for sin.

The word prognosei also appears in 1 Peter 1:2, referring to the choosing of true believers.

Cady, Aunty Jane has no understanding of Rev 13:8; Gen. 3:21 because these things have been hid from her.

God never intended His children to be flesh and blood as no flesh can glory in Gods presence, in fact His Spirit would consume flesh instantly. 1 Timothy 6:16 and John 1:18:

Jesus was the Spiritual Creation that God envisioned, and all things (including Adam and Eve) are part of the natural creation that must be revealed before the New Spiritual Creation in Christ Jesus can be fully understood.

Were humans designed to live for so long and then grow old and die? Can you find me any natural cause of death mentioned to Adam?

Adam was made of the earth, earthy and nowhere are we told Adam was anything but mortal. Sin confimed his nature "deing you shalt die"

Death was only mentioned as a punishment for disobedience…..so again logically, if they had not disobeyed, they never would have died…..living forever in paradise on earth was God’s first purpose for the human race.
Is there Scripture to back that up?

Impossible as flesh is weak, was always going to be weak and was destined to always die and return to the earth.

Gen 3:22-24….
”The Lord God said, “Since man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God sent him away from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove man out and stationed the cherubim and the flaming, whirling sword east of the garden of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life.” (HCSB)

There were two trees in the garden….the eating of one was life giving…there other incurred death.

If, as Jane suggests, God wanted Adam and Eve to live in the flesh forever, He would not have placed the tree of consequence in the Garden. However, God knew that when tested, they would sin. Acts 2:23

Which one did the humans choose? And therefore which one were they denied?

The tree of life was always the Living Christ in whom is hid all the hidden treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Where were humans designed to “live forever”? It wasn’t in heaven….and no human needed to go to heaven….nor would God have to send his son to earth to die, if Adam had not thrown us all under the bus.

Jane's animosity towards Adam is a challenge for her. She has been taught from a young age that Adam and Eve cannot be forgiven and are eternally cursed. Unfortunately, she doesn't understand the grace and mercy of God, who covered the first couple with a sacrifice showing them how to remove their own fig leaf coverings. (First shedding of blood / life principle)

Jane also lacks understanding of Genesis 3:15 and the covenant God made with Adam and Eve (this is a real issue!).

There is a deeper truth that she has yet to embrace in her spiritual journey.

F2F

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I'm not continuing a conversation with someone who claims that God had sex with Mary in the missionary position

Wow! Anyone claiming that definitely has devils!

And born of a virgin.....how?

God said Jesus was born of a virgin... those questioning the truthfulness of God's Word are separating themselves from the Lord by accusing Him of being a liar. That ends badly for such peoples.

reminds me of Pauls words "Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it" Romans 2:14

That's a faulty translation where ever it came from...

Romans 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Honestly, these trinitarians have no shame in rejecting logic to embrace mystical dualism needed for their heresy … I can’t (logically) explain the trinity but just know - even though it contradicts Scripture - that it is spiritually true, if not logically true.

Pitiful IDOLATRY.

Who is it that believes... this scripture is a lie???

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Clearly the scripture says that there are 3 that bare witness in Heaven, and these 3 are One, so whassup wit dat?

Matt 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
Matt 3:17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

This is just confusing them with the Truth of God's Word

 

[face2face]

That's a faulty translation where ever it came from...

Romans 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Carries the same meaning.

Gentiles though ignorant of the law practice the wisdom and guidence of the law. i.e stealing, do not murder etc.

F2F

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Gentiles though ignorant of the law practice the wisdom and guidence of the law. i.e stealing, do not murder etc.

That's just the morality the Lord put in to all men.... it's not the wisdom of God which is far, far more reaching that just morality

Big difference in God's Wisdom which is found in His Word versus basic morality

 

[face2face]

That's just the morality the Lord put in to all men.... it's not the wisdom of God which is far, far more reaching that just morality

Big difference in God's Wisdom which is found in His Word versus basic morality

Agree, but many today are not that far from making the step toward the Wisdom of God.