Wrangler
Well-Known Member
That never happened nor could it. You’d know this if you knew what it means to be dead.
Jesus is NOT the Greek Phoenix God.
Exploring Trinitarian Logic
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Jesus is NOT the Greek Phoenix God.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
And you take this literally? HINT: The dead have no power.
There is no verse that states Jesus actually did this. There are many verses that state God raised Jesus from the dead. Why do you deny or ignore what Scripture explicitly said happened?
I’m not interested in the debates of other Christian theologians; I want to hear what you personally think.
J.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Yes, but only because being "found in the form of a man", He voluntarily humbled Himself and emptied Himself (as it were) in obedience to the Father and in complete reliance on Him. I think Hephzibah expressed it well. And being God, pure, holy, with no darkness in Him, He could not sin (or at the very least He just never ever would)....which means He could not go against the will of the Father. He had to be God (perfectly holy) in order to obey and do the Father's will perfectly. Like our new man cannot sin, when/if we are walking in him....our new man has been created in the image of Christ and is of His Spirit and nature.
I dont' know all the aspects of the "doctrine of the Trinity", it might be imperfect in some ways, the efforts of man to capture this in words, I'm not sure, but I do believe the Lord is a "triune" God, even if we may never fully understand it this side of heaven.
1Jo 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Beautiful words to me, the three are in perfect submission and harmony with one another, each selflessly glorifying the other I think we might say.
And as Johann pointed out, Christ pre-existed creation.
Are you not familiar with the scripture where Jesus said He has power to lay down His life and to TAKE IT UP AGAIN? Maybe the JW bible doesn't have that verse or it's not rendered accurately.
Jhn 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
And He did, let no one here convince you otherwise, @Lizbeth. All the Unitarian camp offers is relentless ad hominems, time and again.
J.
Only His body was dead, not His eternal spirit. God raising Jesus from the dead, and Jesus having power to take it up again........means Jesus is/was God. It appears He was even commanded by the Father to both lay down His life as well as to take it up again. Perfectly submitted to the Father to the very finish!
It's an interesting thought. The NT is rife with verses suggesting that God raised Jesus, not that Jesus raised himself. Equating the two based solely on John 10:18 just seems a bit of a stretch to me.
Why are you discouraged and despairing at what Amigo said? Might it be conviction you are feeling? Salt does have a sting to it where it needs to do its work of purifying and cleansing. Sound doctrine often needs to be "endured", it doesn't always make us feel good.
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John 10:18
"No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."
Matthew 12:40
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Matthew 17:9
"And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."
Matthew 26:32
"But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee."
Mark 8:31
"And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again."
Mark 9:31
"For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day."
Mark 10:34
"And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again."
Mark 14:28
"But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee."
Luke 9:22
"Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day."
Luke 18:33
"And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again."
Luke 24:7
"Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again."
John 2:19
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
John 2:21
"But he spake of the temple of his body."
John 10:11
"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."
John 10:17
"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again."
John 11:25
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."
John 12:32
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
John 14:19
"Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also."
John 16:16
"A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father."
I would advise exercising caution with this individual. @Lizbeth.
Keep the faith.
J.
God the Father raised Jesus:
Acts 2:24: "Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it."
Romans 6:4: "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Galatians 1:1: "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)"
Ephesians 1:20: "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places."
Jesus raised Himself:
John 2:19: "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
John 10:17-18: "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."
John 14:19: "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also."
The Holy Spirit raised Jesus:
Romans 8:11: "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
1 Peter 3:18: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit."
Acts 10:38: "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him."
These references illustrate the involvement of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in the resurrection of Jesus.
J.
Think and meditate on it prayerfully....seek the Lord for understanding, we cant' do this without Him.
Amen, and they are all one...if we have seen Jesus we have seen the Father.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
God the Father raised Jesus:
Acts 2:24: "Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it."
Romans 6:4: "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Galatians 1:1: "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)"
Ephesians 1:20: "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places."
Jesus raised Himself:
John 2:19: "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
John 10:17-18: "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."
John 14:19: "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also."
The Holy Spirit raised Jesus:
Romans 8:11: "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
1 Peter 3:18: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit."
Acts 10:38: "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him."
These references illustrate the involvement of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in the resurrection of Jesus.
Right here in Scripture @Lizbeth.
J.
Plenty-
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
Joh 1:4 In him was Chayyim (Life) and the Chayyim (Life) was the Ohr (Light) of Bnei Adam. [TEHILLIM 36:10 (9)]
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Joh 1:2 this one was in the beginning with God;
Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men,
Joh 1:5 and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with Elohim.
Joh 1:3 Everything existed through His hands, and without Him, not even one thing existed of the things, which have existed.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men;
Joh 1:5 and the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
was the Word. Note.—No title could be conceived more clearly expressive not only of the pre-existence of Christ, but of his essential Divinity as co-eternal with God than this—The Word, ο λογος;—for as the word of a person co-exists with himself, and is that in which the mind or thought of man is embodied, in order to be declared or made known, and by which the spirit in man is revealed, so did Christ in his eternal and pre-existent nature as "The Word" co-exist with God, who in him also is embodied for manifestation, declared and revealed, as below, Jhn_1:18—’the same, the self, the same very self as thought, or any act of the mind.’
Moreover that "The Word" or "Logos" denotes a person, and not merely an attribute—as Wisdom or Reason—is evident from this passage, as well as all the places where mentioned in the references here given. For evidence that by "The Voice" or "Word of Jehovah," the Jews at and before the coming of Christ had been accustomed to designate the Messiah, see Townsend’s Dissertation on the Logos, N.T. Chronology, pp. 7 and seq. (William De Burgh, New Marginal Readings and References to the Gospels, p. 222). FS101, +Deu_32:42, Jhn_1:14, Isa_49:1-2, Heb_4:12-13; Heb_6:1, 1Pe_1:25, 1Jn_1:1-2; 1Jn_5:7, *Rev_19:13.
and. FS148, +Gen_8:22.
with God. Jhn_1:2; Jhn_1:18, Jhn_3:12; Jhn_14:10; Jhn_16:28; *Jhn_17:5, *Pro_8:22-31, *Zec_13:7, Col_2:2, 1Jn_1:2.
and the Word. FS101, +Deu_32:42, By Hyperbaton, the subject, "the Word," being defined by the article which is prefixed to it, can be placed at the end of two of the clauses, and in each case we are to put the stress on "the Word." FS77, +Exo_3:19,
Bengel notes that "when the predicate precedes the subject, there is an epitasis (an emphatic enlargement of the subject)" as also in Jhn_4:24 (New Testament Word Studies, vol. 1, p. 543). *Jhn_10:30-33; +**Jhn_20:28, +*Psa_45:6, +*Isa_7:14; +*Isa_9:6; Isa_40:9-11, Mat_1:23, *Rom_9:5, **Php_2:6 note. *1Ti_3:16, **Tit_2:13, *Heb_1:8-13, **2Pe_1:1 g. 1Jn_5:7; 1Jn_5:20.
was God. Not "a god," for the lack of the Greek article here does not make "God" indefinite, but determines which term ("Word" or "God") is to be the subject of the linking verb "was." Greek word order is somewhat more flexible than English, for in English statement sentences the predicate nominative always follows the linking verb. But the literal order of the Greek words here is "and God was the Word" (kai theos ēn o logos), the subject "Word" follows the verb, and the predicate nominative "God" precedes the verb, the reverse of English word order.
Since this clause uses a linking verb, both the subject and the predicate nominative are in the nominative case, so case endings do not serve to identify the subject in this construction; rather, the article "the" points out the subject of the clause. Greek uses the article "the" to accomplish what English does by word order. Thus, if John had placed the article "the" before "God," the meaning would be "God was the Word;" if he had placed the article "the" before both "Word" and "God," the meaning would be convertible or reversible: it would mean equally "God was the Word," and "The Word was God," but this John did not do. By placing the article "the" before "Word," "Word" must be the subject of the linking verb "was," and the statement can only be rendered "the Word was God." Just as mistaken is the rendering "the Word was divine," for "God," lacking the article, is not thereby an adjective, or rendered qualitative when it precedes a linking verb followed by a noun which does have the article. See the note on Mat_27:54 for scholarly documentation and an explanation of this construction known technically as the "anarthrous noun." Translators and translations which choose to render this phrase "a god" or "divine," are motivated by theological, not grammatical, considerations. The phrase "a god" is particularly objectionable, because it makes Christ a lesser "god," which is polytheism, and contrary to the express declaration of Scripture elsewhere (Deu_32:39). For clearly if Christ is "a god," then he must be either a "true god" or a "false god." If "true," we assert polytheism; if "false," he is unworthy of our credence. John’s high view of Christ expressed throughout his Gospel, climaxing in the testimony of Thomas, who addressed Christ as "my Lord and my God," is asserted from this opening statement, "the Word was God." There is no legitimate basis for understanding his declaration in any lesser sense than affirming the full deity of our Savior. **Jhn_5:18; +*Jhn_8:35; +*Jhn_8:58; +*Jhn_8:59; +*Jhn_10:30; +*Jhn_10:33; +*%+Jhn_10:34; Jhn_14:7; +**Jhn_20:28, +*Deu_32:39, +*Job_19:26, Isa_7:14; Isa_9:6; *Isa_43:10; **Isa_44:6, **Jer_23:5; **Jer_23:6, +*Mic_5:2, %Act_12:22; **Act_20:28, Rom_9:5, %*2Co_4:4, Eph_5:5 g. **Php_2:6 note. 2Th_1:12 g. 1Ti_3:16, **Tit_2:13 g. +*Heb_1:8, **2Pe_1:1 g. Rev_21:7.
Do look up the references.
J.
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That's why I believe with all my heart the Triune Godhead is biblical @Lizbeth-just read the prologue of John 1.1 and prayerfully meditate upon that.
Johann.
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