Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Magdala]

Water can exist in three primary states: solid (ice), liquid (water), and gas (steam).

Water exists in three states: solid, liquid, and vapor, united as one because they are the same substance: water. God exists in Three Persons: the Father, the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, united as one because They are the same Essence: love.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is your right to reject the biblical proof texts that clearly affirm the Messiah's deity and preexistence, but please spare me the philosophical arguments about Plato.

I am giving you good reason to believe that Plato is the Basis for the Trinitarian doctrine, which is NOT Biblical. I am giving you good reason to investigate the matter yourself and to free your mind from Constantine's syncretism.

This is not about Plato and his metaphysics-it's about what the Bible says.

Since Plato is the foundation of the Trinity Doctrine, then a reminder of Plato's metaphysics is certainly appropriate.

 

[APAK]

@APAK @Wrangler

Another issue theologians come across when debating the Trinity is they argue that the Trinity is 'implicit' in the New Testament and was 'implicitly understood' in the 1st century AD.

Any and all attempts to prove this have failed everytime!

They mention that evidence for an 'implicit Trinity' in the NT includes various 'triadic statements' such as Matt 28:19. However not one debater has ever claimed that these verses prove or explain the Trinity, but simply that they support an 'implicit Trinitarianism.

This begs the question of why the Trinity is merely ‘implicit’ in a book inspired by divine revelation, spanning almost 4,000 years of history, throughout which God claimed to be providing humanity with a complete picture of His identity and purpose.

Trinitarian debaters again have no answer for this, nor can they explain why the Trinity was not revealed in the Old Testament.

F2F

Face it....It's all so much horse manure F2F..they have nothing of substance to show. It makes me wonder then if many of the Trinis and Binis really believe that a man was born on that day of God; meaning also they do not believe this man Jesus came (created: conceived and born) in the flesh, of a body like mine although his genetically perfect (as the 1st Adam), as John meant it, without any Triune god model BS in his mind and not inspired by the Spirit.

 

[Lizbeth]

Bear in mind that Paul is talking about the man Jesus, when he says he appeared in the form of God.

I dont' know if we ever will be able to fully capture and understand these things this side of heaven, knowing only in part, and "who is sufficient for these things?", and sometimes I think I'm grasping it better than at other times. But I believe Jesus overcame as a man relying on God, to be our forerunner like the tip of the spear, to make the way before us, and be our example, and to be a perfect spotless sacrificial Lamb on our behalf, but the only reason He could overcome perfectly and never ever sin, was because He was also God. God manifest in the flesh. We, unlike Him, can't overcome by our own selves...without Him we can do nothing...we can only overcome through Him, because He dwells in us.

Remember Jesus said unless He went away (ascend to heaven) the Comforter would not come....I believe that had to do with His spirit within Him being God's spirit, and He needed His spirit to be alive on earth. Just like our human spirit within us is what makes us "us" and makes us alive, Jesus' spirit within Him was the Holy Spirit of God...meaning He was God, and that is why the Spirit of God is also called the Spirit of Christ in the bible. I think when He is in heaven He is in the form of God, not as a man, but as spirit, not in a body. "God is spirit". When He appears on earth He manifests in His glorified body.

I don't know how Christ's eternal spirit could come and dwell in the born again believer if He is not God. My heart knows He is God. As Thomas worshiped Jesus and said "My Lord and my God" when his eyes were opened to see the truth. When scripture says Christ is "worthy" to be praised etc, that is what it is saying in a lovely "understated" way. He is worthy because He is God.

 

[amigo de christo]

I dont' know if we ever will be able to fully capture and understand these things this side of heaven, knowing only in part, and "who is sufficient for these things?", and sometimes I think I'm grasping it better than at other times. But I believe Jesus overcame as a man relying on God, to be our forerunner like the tip of the spear, to make the way before us, and be our example, and to be a perfect spotless sacrificial Lamb on our behalf, but the only reason He could overcome perfectly and never ever sin, was because He was also God. God manifest in the flesh. We, unlike Him, can't overcome by our own selves...without Him we can do nothing...we can only overcome through Him, because He dwells in us.

Remember Jesus said unless He went away (ascend to heaven) the Comforter would not come....I believe that had to do with His spirit within Him being God's spirit, and He needed His spirit to be alive on earth. Just like our human spirit within us is what makes us "us" and makes us alive, Jesus' spirit within Him was the Holy Spirit of God...meaning He was God, and that is why the Spirit of God is also called the Spirit of Christ in the bible. I think when He is in heaven He is in the form of God, not as a man, but as spirit, not in a body. "God is spirit". When He appears on earth He manifests in His glorified body.

I don't know how Christ's eternal spirit could come and dwell in the born again believer if He is not God. My heart knows He is God. As Thomas worshiped Jesus and said "My Lord and my God" when his eyes were opened to see the truth. When scripture says Christ is "worthy" to be praised etc, that is what it is saying in a lovely "understated" way. He is worthy because He is God.

that is why JESUS also said ME and MY FATHER shall make our abode upon that man .
Later paul even writes the Spirit of Christ
and in the same line says the Spirit of GOD .

 

[ProDeo]

I find it odd

What I find odd is that you still rely on the JW bible with all its deliberate changes of the original Greek.

And what about the cross that is replaced with stake or pole in the whole NT, why ??

Is the apostle John a liar?

He witnessed the crucifixion.

 

[Scott Downey]

What I find odd is that you still rely on the JW bible with all its deliberate changes of the original Greek.

And what about the cross that is replaced with stake or pole in the whole NT, why ??

Is the apostle John a liar?

He witnessed the crucifixion.

They consider all the other bible versions corrupted.
Yet they are slaves of their own corruption making up stories to suit themselves.

It is very well known, the Romans used wooden crosses in executions. They are so anti-catholic, seeing people wearing crosses, they changed the word, as they want nothing to do with real christianity.

 

[Marvelloustime]

that is why JESUS also said ME and MY FATHER shall make our abode upon that man .
Later paul even writes the Spirit of Christ
and in the same line says the Spirit of GOD .

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

They consider all the other bible versions corrupted.
Yet they are slaves of their own corruption making up stories to suit themselves.

It is very well known, the Romans used wooden crosses in executions. They are so anti-catholic, seeing people wearing crosses, they changed the word, as they want nothing to do with real christianity.

 

[amigo de christo]

They consider all the other bible versions corrupted.
Yet they are slaves of their own corruption making up stories to suit themselves.

It is very well known, the Romans used wooden crosses in executions. They are so anti-catholic, seeing people wearing crosses, they changed the word, as they want nothing to do with real christianity.

let us take note of what paul wrote to the church . he says SPIRIT OF GOD
and the SPIRIT of CHRIST . same Spirit

 

[CadyandZoe]

Water exists in three states: solid, liquid, and vapor, united as one because they are the same substance: water. God exists in Three Persons: the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit, united as one because They are the same Essence: love.

Okay, but be aware that the Creeds use a different definition of "substance" than we do. Today, in modern times, a "substance" is the material from which something is made. When the Creed was developed, a "substance" (Greek: "ousia") is considered the fundamental reality that exists independently and underlies all other properties and changes.

I'll give you an example.

Early in my life, I sat on a wooden chair with four wooden legs and a wooden backrest. Now, I am sitting on a computer chair with four caster wheels mounted to a central, cylindrical leg attached to the bottom of my seat. Both items, easily recognized as a "chair" are different in both design and material composition. The concept of "chair-ness" is universal and does not depend on the particulars or properties of the chair itself. There are hundreds of chair designs and each of them participates in the overall concept of "chair."

Follow me? In Greek thought, the idea of "chair" is the substance of the chair.

Next, consider what would happen to my wooden chair if I removed one of the legs. Although the chair's design has changed, if I redistribute the legs so that they support my weight equally, it will still remain a chair. The "substance" of the chair is its "chair-ness."

Now, I chop up the chair and place it in the fire. The fire will destroy this particular instance of chair, but the fire will not touch the idea of "chair-ness." And to the Greek mind, the idea of "chair-ness," which is its substance, is indestructible and eternal.

Christians believe that God is indestructible and eternal, but unlike the "ideals" God is a living being who has a will, personality, values, morals and etc. In a sense, God is the most real being that exists. God created "chair-ness" and so God is more real than "chair-ness."

When the Creeds were developed, the debate was whether Jesus was an instantiation of "God-ness", participating in the "ousia" we know as God, or whether Jesus was the hypostatic union of God and Man. Or what? That was the question -- the quiddity of Jesus.

Our question is whether Plato's metaphysics, which forms the basis of the Trinitarian Doctrine is the best explanation of the Biblical witness.

 

[Magdala]

Okay, but be aware that the Creeds use a different definition of "substance" than we do. Today, in modern times, a "substance" is the material from which something is made. When the Creed was developed, a "substance" (Greek: "ousia") is considered the fundamental reality that exists independently and underlies all other properties and changes.

I'll give you an example.

Early in my life, I sat on a wooden chair with four wooden legs and a wooden backrest. Now, I am sitting on a computer chair with four caster wheels mounted to a central, cylindrical leg attached to the bottom of my seat. Both items, easily recognized as a "chair" are different in both design and material composition. The concept of "chair-ness" is universal and does not depend on the particulars or properties of the chair itself. There are hundreds of chair designs and each of them participates in the overall concept of "chair."

Follow me? In Greek thought, the idea of "chair" is the substance of the chair.

Next, consider what would happen to my wooden chair if I removed one of the legs. Although the chair's design has changed, if I redistribute the legs so that they support my weight equally, it will still remain a chair. The "substance" of the chair is its "chair-ness."

Now, I chop up the chair and place it in the fire. The fire will destroy this particular instance of chair, but the fire will not touch the idea of "chair-ness." And to the Greek mind, the idea of "chair-ness," which is its substance, is indestructible and eternal.

Christians believe that God is indestructible and eternal, but unlike the "ideals" God is a living being who has a will, personality, values, morals and etc. In a sense, God is the most real being that exists. God created "chair-ness" and so God is more real than "chair-ness."

When the Creeds were developed, the debate was whether Jesus was an instantiation of "God-ness", participating in the "ousia" we know as God, or whether Jesus was the hypostatic union of God and Man. Or what? That was the question -- the quiddity of Jesus.

Our question is whether Plato's metaphysics, which forms the basis of the Trinitarian Doctrine is the best explanation of the Biblical witness.

I didn't say that God is a substance. I'm using the substance water as a comparison to God, though inexact, in the following sense: Water exists in three states: solid, liquid, and vapor, united as one because they are the same substance: water. God exists in Three Persons: the Father, the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, united as one because They are the same Essence: love.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I dont' know if we ever will be able to fully capture and understand these things this side of heaven, knowing only in part, and "who is sufficient for these things?", and sometimes I think I'm grasping it better than at other times. But I believe Jesus overcame as a man relying on God, to be our forerunner like the tip of the spear, to make the way before us, and be our example, and to be a perfect spotless sacrificial Lamb on our behalf, but the only reason He could overcome perfectly and never ever sin, was because He was also God. God manifest in the flesh. We, unlike Him, can't overcome by our own selves...without Him we can do nothing...we can only overcome through Him, because He dwells in us.

I agree with your insightful statement except Jesus would say the same thing about himself. In fact, he did.

John 5:19
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:30
“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Remember Jesus said unless He went away (ascend to heaven) the Comforter would not come....I believe that had to do with His spirit within Him being God's spirit, and He needed His spirit to be alive on earth.

Hmm. That's interesting. I always thought that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit.

 

[amigo de christo]

I didn't say that God is a substance. I'm using the substance water as a comparison to God, though not exact, in the following sense:

Water exists in three states: solid, liquid, and vapor, united as one because they are the same substance: water.

God exists in Three Persons: the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit, united as one because They are the same Essence: love.

their example of the chairness was all human reasoning . people do as they do .
Sheep heed and believe The voice of the Great shepard of the sheep .
Sheep beleive what is written and will not omit parts to fit their own minds belief .
It is written I am alpha and omega , the first and the last . GOD said that .
Christ said that . While it is true we might not fully grasp this
Let no man , woman or child DENY the diety of CHRIST .
Many things were written and recorded for our learning . We see the good examples
and the bad examples .
Peter said LORD this shall not be so ..........
The LORD rebuked peter sharply and told him ye savor the things of men .
The LORD often rebuked the error of even his own and taught them .
He even rebuked THOMAS for his unbelief .
AND YET HE never once rebuked that same thomas when HE kneeled before HIM and said MY LORD and MY GOD .
the angel rebuked john for kneeling in worship unto it .
JESUS did not rebuke thomas for kneeling and saying what HE said .
And we clearly see HIM say in the book of revelation I am alpha and omega , first and the last and behold I COME quickly .
GOD IS HIS WORD , HE IS HIS SPIRIT . His essence .
I sure notice a lot of worship in heaven unto GOD , unto the lamb .
I sure notice when JOHN fell down at JESUS feet in heaven , HE never said GET UP and WORSHIP GOD ,
as did the angel say to john . You see the CREATOR is worthy of all worship .
And i sure seem to notice it says that GOD and the LAMB ARE THE TEMPLE OF IT . john saw the city
and saw no temple therein for GOD and THE LAMB are THE TEMPLE .

 

[RedFan]

Water exists in three states: solid, liquid, and vapor, united as one because they are the same substance: water. God exists in Three Persons: the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit, united as one because They are the same Essence: love.

Problem: water cannot exist in three "states" (solid, liquid, and vapor) SIMULTANEOUSLY. But God exists in three "persons" (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) simultaneously. Unlike water states, two of the three "persons" don't cease to exist as such whenever the third is present. So the analogy limps.

 

[APAK]

that is why JESUS also said ME and MY FATHER shall make our abode upon that man .
Later paul even writes the Spirit of Christ
and in the same line says the Spirit of GOD .

Amigo, you know why Paul placed the spirit of Christ alongside the spirit of God right, in Romans? He was not necessarily pointing out that the Spirit of God is the Father of all spirits, although this is true. And in Ephesians it says:

(Eph 4:4) There is one body and one Spirit, even as also you were called in the one hope of your calling.
(Eph 4:5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(Eph 4:6) one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

So in Romans 8:9
(Rom 8:9) " But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. "

The spirit of Christ was given by the Spirit of God, the Father of all spirits. And of course he sent this spirit of his Son for us to grow in as to become Christlike....

It is not meaning that the spirit of Christ is the same as the spirit of God whatsoever, under any circumstances. And it's not at all.
Even Jesus spoke of the Father, his Spirit sending the spirit of truth; another of many spirits that comprise or are 'within' the spirit of God.

The spirit of Christ was created by the Spirit of God in the first place.....as all other spirits designed for a specific purpose...to his pleasure

Paul loves to speak of various spirits as a note.

Paul identifies many spirits in his writings and Christ's is the most important to us and had to be mentioned:

Reference
Romans 1:4
Romans 8:9
Romans 8:9
Romans 8:15
2 Corinthians 3:17
2 Corinthians 4:13
Galatians 4:6
Ephesians 1:17
TR
πνευμα αγιωσυνης
πνευμα θεου
πνευμα χριστου
πνευμα υιοθεσιας
πνευμα κυριου
πνευμα της πιστεως
πνευμα του υιου αυτου
πνευμα σοφιας
KJV
spirit of holiness
spirit of God
spirit of Christ
spirit of adoption
spirit of the Lord
spirit of faith
spirit of his son
spirit of wisdom

 

[Johann]

I agree with your insightful statement except Jesus would say the same thing about himself. In fact, he did.

John 5:19
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:30
“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.


Hmm. That's interesting. I always thought that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit.

Which proves that the Triune Godhead is biblical-correct?

J.

 

[amigo de christo]

Amigo, you know why Paul placed the spirit of Christ alongside the spirit of God right, in Romans? He was not necessarily pointing out that the Spirit of God is the Father of all spirits, although this is true. And in Ephesians it says:

(Eph 4:4) There is one body and one Spirit, even as also you were called in the one hope of your calling.
(Eph 4:5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(Eph 4:6) one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

So in Romans 8:9
(Rom 8:9) " But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. "

The spirit of Christ was given by the Spirit of God, the Father of all spirits. And of course he sent this spirit of his Son for us to grow in as to become Christlike....

It is not meaning that the spirit of Christ is the same as the spirit of God whatsoever, under any circumstances. And it's not at all.
Even Jesus spoke of the Father, his Spirit sending the spirit of truth; another of many spirits that comprise or are 'within' the spirit of God.

The spirit of Christ was created by the Spirit of God in the first place.....as all other spirits designed for a specific purpose...to his pleasure

Paul loves to speak of various spirits as a note.

Paul identifies many spirits in his writings and Christ's is the most important to us and had to be mentioned:

Reference
Romans 1:4
Romans 8:9
Romans 8:9
Romans 8:15
2 Corinthians 3:17
2 Corinthians 4:13
Galatians 4:6
Ephesians 1:17
TR
πνευμα αγιωσυνης
πνευμα θεου
πνευμα χριστου
πνευμα υιοθεσιας
πνευμα κυριου
πνευμα της πιστεως
πνευμα του υιου αυτου
πνευμα σοφιας
KJV
spirit of holiness
spirit of God
spirit of Christ
spirit of adoption
spirit of the Lord
spirit of faith
spirit of his son
spirit of wisdom

lots of words there to try and explain this away .
So here is a simplier question .
I am alpha and omega the first and the last , behold i come quickly and my reward is with me .......
ONLY GOD said that , yet its seen in heaven with JESUS saying this too .
Many words do men use and often can bring an essay and yet in the end their words ONLY DENIED THE WORDS of
GOD HIMSELF . i would not heed such men my friend .

 

[APAK]

lots of words there to try and explain this away .
So here is a simplier question .
I am alpha and omega the first and the last , behold i come quickly and my reward is with me .......
ONLY GOD said that , yet its seen in heaven with JESUS saying this too .
Many words do men use and often can bring an essay and yet in the end their words ONLY DENIED THE WORDS of
GOD HIMSELF . i would not heed such men my friend .

Oh my, you defy scripture again, and then in desperation try to add a gotcha that is not at all.
Do you want me to explain this one to you as well? ..you might learn something more precious in scripture than your words of discouragement and despair today? One day you might stop running on your own and listen to the Spirit.

 

[Wrangler]

This begs the question of why the Trinity is merely ‘implicit’ in a book inspired by divine revelation, spanning almost 4,000 years of history, throughout which God claimed to be providing humanity with a complete picture of His identity and purpose.

Trinitarian debaters again have no answer for this, nor can they explain why the Trinity was not revealed in the Old Testament.

Here is the simple answer; The trinity is not in the Bible. It is not in either the NT or the OT.

The trinitarian intellectual corruption is total. Even their claim of it being implied is false; reading into unitarian text a trinitarian doctrine is extreme eisegesis not an implication. Let’s examine the full weight of evidence against the trinity by these 5 pillars, which is the only proper way to process their extreme eisegesis.

1. Definition. There are a whole set of words trinitarians need to redefine to make their doctrine make sense. Someone recently posted a fairly long list. Two examples. Son is a created Being. Death is redefined in such a way to deny that Jesus fully died.
2. Logic. The art of the non-contradictory identification of truth. The trinity is inherently contradictory. Trinitarians reject logic in favor of dualism. That Jesus died is proof text that he is not God - but only if logic applies.
3. Language Usage. The purpose of language is to communicate, not obscure communication. Jesus said he has a God. This is not how language is used to show Jesus IS God. Scripture repeatedly says Jesus is OF God - son, word, lamb, priest, apostle, servant. OF is a preposition, not a verb, like IS.
4. Explicit Verses. I am YHWH, your God and there is no other. For us, there is one God, the Father. God - in his Unitarian nature (not the Father) is the head of Christ. Every epistle acknowledges only God the Father.
5. Implication of Verses. This implies there is only God the Father. Why imply Jesus is a liar when he says our Fatheris the only true God, since it implies the trinity is a false God? Jesus is a man, implies he is not God. Jesus is the Son of God, implies he is not God, just as Hunter Biden, the son of the President, is not the President. Jesus said to pray to the Father, which implies the trinity is not God.

The trinity is the most common form of IDOLATRY in Christendom. Many of these IDOLATORS sacrifice Christ to this IDOL, claiming without it, there is no Christianity or one cannot even be. Christ follower without it!

One must ignore these 5 pillars of analysis in favor of extreme eisegesis. They use the term ‘implication’ of Scripture, which is a lie, an abuse of language as they hope to maintain the veneer of sounding logical, while simultaneously abandoning logic. They are actually speculating contrary to context and doctrinally investing in ambiguous verses precisely because they have no where else to go. See reliance on ECF.

For instance, Genesis 1:26 has God saying about humans, ‘Let us make man in our image.’ Moses wrote this Unitarian verse in Unitarian text about 1700 BC. 2,100 years later the 4th century trinitarians re-invented how to properly interpret this

The more I learn about the Bible the more obvious it is that the trinity is a total fraud. Only one could propagate such a lie to detract from YHWH’s glory. They don’t have eyes to see or ears to hear.