Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Johann]

@David in NJ
@Johann
@Wrangler
@APAK
@ProDeo
@Lizbeth
@RLT63

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin" Heb 4:15

What was the point of Christ being tempted in the flesh if it was impossible for him to sin?

Be interested to see your answers

F2F

Already answered-learn what a Asham is.

J.

 

[face2face]

It's like telling a 66.6lb kid that he can have the House if he can lift the the 300lb ROCK over his head.

Elohim the FATHER said: "Go ahead Satan, give it your BEST SHOT"

This is an admission that Christ in the flesh was of no importance at all.

Interesting

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

It seems there’s some confusion about what it means for Jesus to be our Asham (אָשָׁם, guilt offering) and the idea that He "became sin" on the cross.

In Isaiah 53:10, it is prophesied:
"But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself as a guilt offering (אָשָׁם, Asham)."
This identifies Jesus as the fulfillment of the sacrificial system, specifically the Asham, which was an offering to atone for guilt, not the guilt itself. Jesus bore the penalty of sin, but He Himself remained holy and undefiled.

Now, regarding 2 Corinthians 5:21, it says:
"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us."
The Greek phrase here is ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν ("made Him sin"), which is often misunderstood.

In the context of the Hebrew sacrificial system, ἁμαρτία (sin) is better understood as a sin offering (see Leviticus 4:24 in the Septuagint, where the same term is used for sin offerings).

This aligns with the Hebrew understanding of the Asham=Jesus became the offering that dealt with sin,-

Furthermore, consider Deuteronomy 21:23, which says that one hung on a tree is cursed by God. Paul references this in Galatians 3:13, explaining that Jesus took on the curse of the law for us. However, taking on the curse of sin is not the same as becoming sin. The Torah and the prophets make it clear that a guilt offering remains spotless and undefiled; otherwise, it would not be acceptable to God.

Jesus was the Pesach (פֶּסַח), the spotless Lamb (Exodus 12:5; 1 Peter 1:19), whose blood delivers us from judgment. To claim that He "became sin" would contradict His holiness, as Hebrews 4:15 explicitly states:
"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin."

In summary, Jesus did not "become sin" in the sense of inheriting or embodying sin. He was the Asham, the guilt offering, the holy and spotless Lamb who bore the consequences of sin without becoming sinful Himself.

To say otherwise misunderstands the profound holiness and perfection of His sacrifice.

Isaiah 53:4-6 describes the suffering servant:
"Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows... He was pierced for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities."

The Hebrew word for "borne" (נָשָׂא, nasa) conveys the idea of lifting or carrying a burden, not embodying it.

Similarly, "carried" (סָבַל, sabal) indicates taking responsibility for something without internalizing it.

2 Corinthians 5:21 says:
"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

In the Greek, ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν (literally, "made Him sin") is best understood in the context of the Hebrew sacrificial system, where sin (ἁμαρτία, hamartia) often refers to a sin offering (e.g., Leviticus 4:24 in the Septuagint).

Jesus became the offering that dealt with sin.

Hebrews 4:15 affirms Christ's sinlessness:
"He was tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin."

The phrase χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας ("without sin") unequivocally states that Jesus did not become sinful, even as He bore the weight of humanity’s sin.

2. Jesus Dealt with Sin’s Power, Guilt, and Consequences

Romans 8:3 explains the purpose of Jesus’ incarnation:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh."

The phrase ἐν ὁμοιώματι σαρκὸς ἁμαρτίας ("in the likeness of sinful flesh") emphasizes that while Jesus fully participated in human nature, His flesh was not sinful. He "condemned sin in the flesh," meaning He rendered sin powerless and dealt with it judicially.

1 Peter 2:24 says:
"He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness." The phrase "bore our sins" (Greek: ἀνήνεγκεν) refers to Jesus carrying the penalty and judgment of sin, not becoming sin itself.

3. Jesus’ Role as the Perfect Sacrifice
The sacrificial system in the Torah required that offerings be unblemished and spotless (e.g., Exodus 12:5; Leviticus 1:3). If Jesus had "become sin" in a literal sense, He would no longer have been a perfect sacrifice, disqualifying Him from atoning for sin.

As the Asham (guilt offering, אָשָׁם) of Isaiah 53:10, Jesus fulfilled this requirement. The guilt offering was holy, set apart, and acceptable to God-it did not take on the nature of sin itself but bore the penalty on behalf of the sinner.

4. Victory Over Sin and Death
Colossians 2:14-15 shows that Jesus dealt decisively with sin:
"Having canceled the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands, this He set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in Him."

Jesus’ death and resurrection destroyed the power of sin, fulfilling His mission without compromising His sinless nature.

1 Corinthians 15:56-57:
"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Jesus dealt with sin itself, defeating its power and granting freedom to believers.

Jesus fully dealt with sin itself-its guilt, power, and consequences-without becoming sinful. He bore the penalty of sin as the perfect, spotless Lamb of God (ἀμνὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ) and fulfilled the role of the Asham guilt offering, satisfying God’s justice and securing our redemption.

To say He "became sin" in a literal sense misunderstands both the nature of His atonement and the biblical portrayal of His sinless perfection.

@face2face is out of the picture.

J.

However, taking on the curse of sin is not the same as becoming sin. The Torah and the prophets make it clear that a guilt offering remains spotless and undefiled; otherwise, it would not be acceptable to God.

BINGO

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin."

Our Confidence that goes beyond the Veil, into the HOLIEST of ALL on our behalf.

Jesus’ death and resurrection destroyed the power of sin, fulfilling His mission without compromising His sinless nature.

HE entered the TEN-FOLD LAW CHAMBER of DEATH and Came out the VICTOROIUS GLORIOUS ONE

Jesus dealt with sin itself, defeating its power

TAG TEAM wrestling SMACK-DOWN

fulfilling His mission without compromising His sinless nature.

HE took His Crown, His Belt and His Robe off in Heaven and WON the Battle in the flesh on the Cross = without sin

 

[David in NJ]

This is an admission that Christ in the flesh was of no importance at all.

Interesting

F2F

See Post 968 for DETAILS

 

[face2face]

1 Corinthians 15:56-57:
"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

J.

What is Paul doing with the word sin here which speaks to Christ being raised up out of sin's flesh?

"he was made sin for us"

In what way was Christ made sin.

F2F

 

[face2face]

See Post 968 for DETAILS

You blamed it all on satan!

 

[David in NJ]

You blamed it all on satan!

dammit, you're right

 

[Magdala]

One newbie twisted my post, which said there is only one God, the Father, to be an equal expression that there cannot be 2 gods. He claimed we agree on that - while simultaneously ignoring my point entirely.

That newbie is myself and I said that we agree the idea of two or more seperate gods isn't scriptural. Then, you asserted that's false, so I asked, "Do you not believe the idea of two or more gods isn't scriptural?", and no response yet.

 

[Johann]

Was your God the sin offering Johann?

Yes, Jesus was/is the perfect sin offering.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.

Isa 53:11 He [Hashem] shall see of the travail of his [Moshiach's] nefesh, and shall be satisfied; by knowledge of him [Moshiach] shall Tzadik Avdi ["My Righteous Servant," Moshiach, Zecharyah 3:8, Yirmeyah 23:5; Zecharyah 6:11-12, Ezra 3:8 Yehoshua, Yeshua shmo] justify many (Ro 5:1); for he [Moshiach] shall bear their avon (iniquities).

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his nefesh unto mavet (death); and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he nasah (Lv 16:22, carried) (like the Yom Kippur scapegoat) the sin of many, and made intercession [did the work of a mafgi'a, intercessor] for the transgressors [see Lk 23:34 OJBC].

You have much to learn, do it quickly.

J.

 

[Johann]

BINGO


Our Confidence that goes beyond the Veil, into the HOLIEST of ALL on our behalf.


HE entered the TEN-FOLD LAW CHAMBER of DEATH and Came out the VICTOROIUS GLORIOUS ONE


TAG TEAM wrestling SMACK-DOWN


HE took His Crown, His Belt and His Robe off in Heaven and WON the Battle in the flesh on the Cross = without sin

LOL!!

J.

 

[David in NJ]

LOL!!

J.

Out of the conglomerate, which one did you like the best?

They are all true -ya know!

 

[Wrangler]

What was the point of Christ being tempted in the flesh if it was impossible for him to sin?

Implied premise is flawed. If he cannot sin, it follows that he cannot be tempted to sin.

So, either the manmade dogma of not being able to sin is wrong OR Scripture is wrong.

 

[Johann]

Out of the conglomerate, which one did you like the best?

They are all true -ya know!

TAG TEAM wrestling SMACK-DOWN!!

I play the damn game on my computer.

J.

 

[Johann]

Implied premise is flawed. If he cannot sin, it follows that he cannot be tempted to sin.

So, either the manmade dogma of not being able to sin is wrong OR Scripture is wrong.

Thanks for admitting your dogma is error.

J.

 

[Magdala]

What was the point of Christ being tempted in the flesh [...]

In part, to be an example that humans can conquer the temptation of evil with a strong willpower and God's assistance.

 

[David in NJ]

To be an example that humans can conquer the temptation of evil with a strong willpower and God's assistance.

Humans CANNOT conquer evil/temptation.

Therefore, God sent His Son in the "likeness" of sinful flesh, yet without sin.

the RCC religion that i was raised in is a PERFECT example of the weakness of the flesh in it's FAILED attempts at combatting sin.

Your sins are NEVER forgiven in the confessional with works of penance.

 

[Johann]

In part, to be an example that humans can conquer the temptation of evil with a strong willpower and God's assistance.

I wouldn't say through "willpower" brother.

Overcoming temptation is not fundamentally a matter of sheer "willpower" in the biblical sense. While human effort plays a role in resisting sin, the Bible emphasizes reliance on God’s grace, the Holy Spirit’s empowerment, and the application of divine truth as the primary means of victory over temptation.

1. Human Willpower Alone Is Insufficient

Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

This highlights the flawed nature of human will and its inability to consistently resist sin without divine help.

Romans 7:18-19: Paul writes, "For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out."

Human willpower alone is not enough to overcome the pull of sin, as it is weakened by the flesh.

2. Victory Comes Through the Holy Spirit
Galatians 5:16: "Walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." AHHH!

The indwelling Holy Spirit provides believers with the power to resist sin and live righteously. This is far more effective than relying on one’s own strength.

Romans 8:13: "If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." The Spirit enables believers to mortify sinful desires.

3. The Role of God’s Word
Matthew 4:4, 7, 10: In the wilderness, Jesus resisted Satan’s temptations by quoting Scripture. He modeled reliance on God’s Word rather than merely exercising willpower.

Psalm 119:11: "I have stored up Your word in my heart, that I might not sin against You." Internalizing Scripture equips believers with truth to combat temptation.

4. Prayer as a Weapon Against Temptation

Matthew 26:41: "Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Jesus instructed His disciples to pray, acknowledging the inadequacy of human effort alone.

Hebrews 4:16: "Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." Prayer invites God’s help during moments of temptation.

5. Recognizing God’s Faithfulness in Temptation

1 Corinthians 10:13: "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and He will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation He will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."
God ensures that believers are never left to face temptation alone. He provides strength and a way out.

6. Christ as Our Example and High Priest
Hebrews 2:18: "For because He Himself has suffered when tempted, He is able to help those who are being tempted." Jesus identifies with our struggles and offers help.

Hebrews 4:15-16: "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin." We can approach Him confidently for strength in temptation.

My "willpower" is rather weak.

J.

 

[Magdala]

Humans CANNOT conquer evil/temptation.

Therefore, God sent His Son in the "likeness" of sinful flesh, yet without sin.

the RCC religion that i was raised in is a PERFECT example of the weakness of the flesh in it's FAILED attempts at combatting sin.

Your sins are NEVER forgiven in the confessional with works of penance.

Conquer the temptation of evil by resisting giving in to it. The Word became human, thereby subject to the temptation of evil, and He resisted it, hence why Peter said Jesus didn't commit sins, and that we should follow His example (1 2:21-22). He wouldn't have said that if it was impossible. God showed, as a human, that it's possible for us, through our willpower and His assistance.

 

[Magdala]

I wouldn't say through "willpower" brother.

Overcoming temptation is not fundamentally a matter of sheer "willpower" in the biblical sense. While human effort plays a role in resisting sin, the Bible emphasizes reliance on God’s grace, the Holy Spirit’s empowerment, and the application of divine truth as the primary means of victory over temptation.

I didn't say only through willpower, but rather willpower and God's assistance.

 

[Johann]

I didn't only say willpower, but rather willpower and God's assistance.

--through the indwelling Holy Spirit-but I understand what you are saying brother.

J.