Exploring Trinitarian Logic

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
If Jesus did not have God's divine nature... that would make Him not of God and like the devil

Jesus is God's Word manifest in the flesh and God's divine nature is in His Word

It's too bad that anyone would believe Jesus is not of God and has the nature of satan and not of God View attachment 55395
Johann was asked maybe three times last night to provide a single verse that shows Jesus had two natures or even a Divine Nature and do you know how many verses he provided?

Zip, zero...nottathing!

Do you know why he couldnt provide one verse?

Because the Apostle all knew Christ was raised up out of Sin Flesh, though the reason why is hid from you

F2F
 

Magdala

Active Member
Dec 25, 2024
617
113
43
Pacific Northwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My head is spinning, Johann, because it seems that not only you and Prodeo believe Christ was incapable of sin, but many others as well.

Yes, including Peter: "For you were called to this, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example, that you should follow his steps, Who didn’t sin, “neither was deceit found in his mouth.” (1 Pet. 2:21-22)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Johann

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I just can't believe there are so many ignorant Christians in this forum who reject Christ came in sin's flesh!

Astounding!

F2F
 
J

Johann

Guest
Johann was asked maybe three times last night to provide a single verse that shows Jesus had two natures or even a Divine Nature and do you know how many verses he provided?

Zip, zero...nottathing!

Do you know why he couldnt provide one verse?

Because the Apostle all knew Christ was raised up out of Sin Flesh, though the reason why is hid from you

F2F
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Yes, including Peter: "For you were called to this, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example, that you should follow his steps, Who didn’t sin, “neither was deceit found in his mouth.” (1. Pet. 2:21-22)
You don't know his sufferings if you believe sin was not possible.

Hebrews 12:4 states, “In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood

You know not the Christ because of a false doctrine devised hundreds of years after the true Gospel was preached.

All this time in this forum and I didn't know so many have been deceived.

F2F
 

Magdala

Active Member
Dec 25, 2024
617
113
43
Pacific Northwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I just can't believe there are so many ignorant Christians in this forum who reject Christ came in sin's flesh!

Astounding!

F2F

We agree that the Word became human, subjecting Himself to the temptation of evil like other humans, but He resisted committing sins (evil), unlike other humans: "For you were called to this, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example, that you should follow his steps, Who didn’t sin, “neither was deceit found in his mouth.” (1 Pet. 2:21-22)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Johann
J

Johann

Guest
We agree that the Word became human subjecting Himself to the temptation of evil like other humans, but He resisted committing sins (evil) unlike other humans: "For you were called to this, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example, that you should follow his steps, Who didn’t sin, “neither was deceit found in his mouth.” (1. Pet. 2:21-22)
I like what you are doing, just keep on quoting one verse and maybe that will sink in/repose in his heart-Isaiah 53.

J.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,238
5,137
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
Spiritually tired, as if I'm drained, groping at thin air.

J.
Only God changes the heart and grants repentance to know the truth

Acts 16
13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh. Heb 10:20

What it also means is the access "through" his flesh is closed to you, because you reject what was removed in him.

The new and living way is unknown
The Curtain is still up for you
Sin's Flesh was not conquered and you are still within your sins

You have no atonement for sin.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,238
5,137
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.

The First Epistle of Paul to Timothy​

1 Setting forth a perfect pattern of a true Pastor, whose office especially consisteth in teaching, 4 he warneth him that vain questions set apart, he teach those things, 5 which further charity and faith: 12 and that his authority be not condemned, 14 he showeth what an one he is made through the grace of God.

1 Paul [a]an Apostle of Jesus Christ, by the [b]commandment of God our Savior, and of our Lord Jesus Christ our hope,

2 Unto Timothy my natural son in the faith: Grace, [c]mercy, and peace from God our Father, and from Christ Jesus our Lord.

3 [d]As I besought thee to abide still in Ephesus, when I departed into Macedonia, so do, that thou mayest warn some, that they teach none other doctrine,

4 [e]Neither that they give heed to fables and [f]genealogies which are endless, which breed questions rather than godly edifying which is by faith.

5 [g] For the end of the [h]commandment is [i]love out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.

6 [j]From the which things some have erred, and have turned unto vain jangling.

7 [k]They would be doctors of the Law, and yet understand not what they speak, neither whereof they affirm.

8 [l]And we know, that the Law is good, if a man use it lawfully.

9 [m]Knowing this, that the Law is not given unto a [n]righteous man, but unto the lawless and disobedient, to the ungodly, and to [o]sinners, to the unholy, and to the profane, to murderers of fathers and mothers, to manslayers,

10 To whoremongers, to buggerers, to menstealers, to liars, to the perjured, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to wholesome doctrine,

11 [p]Which is according to the glorious Gospel of the blessed God, [q]which is committed unto me.

12 [r]Therefore I thank him which hath made me [s]strong, that is, Christ Jesus our Lord: for he counted me faithful, and put me in his service:

13 When before I was a [t]blasphemer, and a persecutor, and an oppressor: but I was received to mercy: for I did it ignorantly through unbelief.

14 But the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant [u]with faith and love, which is in Christ Jesus.


15 [v]This is a [w]true saying, and by all means worthy to be received, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

16 Notwithstanding for this cause was I received to mercy, that Jesus Christ should first show on me all long suffering unto the ensample of them, which shall in time to come believe in him unto eternal life.

17 [x]Now unto the king everlasting, immortal, invisible, unto God [y]only wise, be honor, and glory, for ever, and ever, Amen.


18 [z]This commandment commit I unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies, which went before upon thee, that thou [aa]by them shouldest fight a good fight,

19 Having [ab]faith and a good conscience, [ac]which some have put away, and as concerning faith, have made shipwreck.

20 Of whom is Hymenaeus, and Alexander, [ad]whom I have [ae]delivered unto Satan, that they might [af]learn not to blaspheme.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,238
5,137
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.

Footnotes​

  1. 1 Timothy 1:1 First of all, he avoucheth his own free vocation, and also Timothy’s, that the one might be confirmed by the other: and therewithal he declareth the sum of the Apostolical doctrine, to wit, the mercy of God in Christ Jesus apprehended by faith, the end whereof is yet hoped for.
  2. 1 Timothy 1:1 Or, ordinance.
  3. 1 Timothy 1:2 There is as much difference betwixt mercy and grace, as is betwixt the effect, and the cause: For grace is that free good will of God, whereby he chose us in Christ, and mercy is that free justification which followeth it.
  4. 1 Timothy 1:3 This whole Epistle consisteth in admonitions, wherein all the duties of a faithful Pastor are lively set out. And the first admonition is this, that no innovation be made either in the Apostle’s doctrine itself, or in the manner of teaching it.
  5. 1 Timothy 1:4 The doctrine is corrupted not only by false opinions, but also by vain and curious speculations: the declaration and utterance whereof can nothing help our faith.
  6. 1 Timothy 1:4 He noteth out one kind of vain question.
  7. 1 Timothy 1:5 The second admonition is, that the right use and practice of the doctrine must be joined with the doctrine. And that consisteth in pure charity, and a good conscience, and true faith.
  8. 1 Timothy 1:5 Of the Law.
  9. 1 Timothy 1:5 There is neither love without a good conscience, nor a good conscience without faith, nor faith without the word of God.
  10. 1 Timothy 1:6 That which he spake before generally of vain and curious controversies, he applieth to them, which pretending a zeal of the Law, dwelled upon outward things, and never made an end of babbling of foolish trifles.
  11. 1 Timothy 1:7 There are none more unlearned, and more impudent in usurping the name of holiness, than foolish sophistical babblers.
  12. 1 Timothy 1:8 The taking away of an objection. He condemneth not the Law, but requireth the right use and practice of it.
  13. 1 Timothy 1:9 He indeed escapeth the curse of the Law, and therefore doth not abhor it, who fleeing and eschewing those things which the Law condemneth, giveth himself with all his heart to observe it: and not he that maketh a vain babbling of outward and curious matters.
  14. 1 Timothy 1:9 And such a one is he, whom the Lord hath endued with true doctrine, and with the holy Ghost.
  15. 1 Timothy 1:9 To such as make an art as it were of sinning.
  16. 1 Timothy 1:11 He setteth against fond and vain babbling, not only the Law, but the Gospel also, which condemneth not, but greatly commendeth the wholesome doctrine contained in the commandments of God, and therefore he calleth it a glorious Gospel, and the Gospel of the blessed God, the virtue whereof these babblers knew not.
  17. 1 Timothy 1:11 A reason why neither any other Gospel is to be taught than he hath taught in the Church, neither after any other sort, because there is no other Gospel besides that which God committed to him.
  18. 1 Timothy 1:12 He maintaineth of necessity his Apostleship against some that did carp at his former life, debasing himself, even to hell, to advance Christ’s only mercy, wherewith he abolished all those his former doings.
  19. 1 Timothy 1:12 Which gave me strength, not only when I had no will to do well, but also when I was wholly given to evil.
  20. 1 Timothy 1:13 These are the preparative works which Paul braggeth of.
  21. 1 Timothy 1:14 He proveth this change by the effects, for that, that he that was a profane man, is become a believer: and he that did most outrageously persecute Christ, burneth now in love towards him.
  22. 1 Timothy 1:15 He turneth the reproach of the adversaries upon their own head, showing that this singular example of the goodness of God, redoundeth to the commodity of the whole Church.
  23. 1 Timothy 1:15 Worthy to be believed.
  24. 1 Timothy 1:17 He breaketh out into an exclamation, even for very zeal of mind, for that he cannot satisfy himself in amplifying the grace of God.
  25. 1 Timothy 1:17 See John 17:3.
  26. 1 Timothy 1:18 The conclusion of both the former fatherly admonitions, to wit, that Timothy striving manfully against all lets, being called to the ministry according to many prophecies which went before of him, should both maintain the doctrine which he had received, and keep also a good conscience.
  27. 1 Timothy 1:18 By the help of them.
  28. 1 Timothy 1:19 Wholesome and sound doctrine.
  29. 1 Timothy 1:19 Whosoever keep not a good conscience, do lose also by little and little the gift of understanding: which he proveth by two most lamentable examples.
  30. 1 Timothy 1:20 Such as fall from God, and his religion, are not to be suffered in the Church, but rather ought to be excommunicated.
  31. 1 Timothy 1:20 Cast out of the Church, and so delivered them to Satan.
  32. 1 Timothy 1:20 That by their smart they might learn what it is to blaspheme.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,390
5,722
113
67
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To everyone! Imagine yourself as the “Bishops” of all the different Christian beliefs of the 4th century. Emperor Constantine has summoned you to Nicaea in 325 AD to come to an agreement on the one true Christian faith.

But on several questions regard God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit ….you, the Bishops (around 300 Bishops) cannot come to an agreement on several points. Just like what is happen on this thread!

Some believed that Yahweh was the Creator God and some believed that Yeshua was the Creator God.
Some believed in a pre-existent Christ and some did not.
Some believed in a hierarchy, that God the Father was senior to God the Son and the Creator God and some believed that Yeshua was the primary God and the Creator God.
Some saw a difference in the character of Yahweh and Yeshua, and a difference in their nature and actions.
Some believed that because God the Father begot a Son that was a God, that was proof of two Gods and then you had the Holy Spirit.
Some believed in the three aspects of the Trinity and defined it differently.
Some did not believe in three aspects and saw the holy spirit, not as a God or “person” but as the spirit of Yahweh. So it was a duo, not a trio.
At this point there is no document belief in the one God formula for the Trinity.

But Emperor Constantine insisted on an agreement or heads would roll. To keep your heads….what do you do!?

Background….the various “churches” of Christianity did not have Bibles at the time. They collected texts and favored some texts more than others. Each church having their own favorites and forming their beliefs on those texts. That is why they arrive in Nicaea with different beliefs on a varsity of things.
 
Last edited:
J

Johann

Guest
by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh. Heb 10:20

What it also means is the access "through" his flesh is closed to you, because you reject what was removed in him.

The new and living way is unknown
The Curtain is still up for you
Sin's Flesh was not conquered and you are still within your sins

You have no atonement for sin.
APAK is on ignore, you are next-nothing edifying from you.

Fools
All men are, without the knowledge of God
Tit_3:3;

Deny God
Psa_14:1; Psa_53:1;

Blaspheme God
Psa_74:18;

Reproach God
Psa_74:22;

Make a mock at sin
Pro_14:9;

Despise instruction
Pro_1:7; Pro_15:5;

Hate knowledge
Pro_1:22;

Delight not in understanding
Pro_18:2;

Sport themselves in mischief
Pro_10:23;

Walk in darkness
Ecc_2:14;

Hate to depart from evil
Pro_13:19;

Worship of, hateful to God
Ecc_5:1;
ARE

Corrupt and abominable
Psa_14:1;

Self-sufficient
Pro_12:15; Rom_1:22;

Self-confident
Pro_14:16;

Self-deceivers
Pro_14:8;

Mere professors of religion
Mat_25:2-12;

Full of words
Ecc_10:14;

Given to meddling
Pro_20:3;

Slanderers
Pro_10:18;

Liars
Pro_10:18;

Slothful
Ecc_4:5;

Angry
Ecc_7:9;

Contentious
Pro_18:6;

A grief to parents
Pro_17:25; Pro_19:13;

Come to shame
Pro_3:35;

Destroy themselves by their speech
Pro_10:8; Pro_10:14; Ecc_10:12;

The company of, ruinous
Pro_13:20;

Lips of, a snare to the soul
Pro_18:7;

Cling to their folly
Pro_26:11; Pro_27:22;

Worship idols
Jer_10:8; Rom_1:22; Rom_1:23;

Trust to their own hearts
Pro_28:26;

Depend upon their wealth
Luk_12:20;

Hear the gospel and obey it not
Mat_7:26;

The mouth of, pours out folly
Pro_15:2;

Honour is unbecoming for
Pro_26:1; Pro_26:8;

God has no pleasure in
Ecc_5:4;

Shall not stand in the presence of God
Psa_5:5;

Avoid them
Pro_9:6; Pro_14:7;

Exhorted to seek wisdom
Pro_8:5;

Punishment of
Psa_107:17; Pro_19:29; Pro_26:10;

Exemplified
Rehoboam
1Ki_12:8;
Israel
Jer_4:22;
Pharisees
Mat_23:17; Mat_23:19;

J.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
"I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I distressed (agony) until it is accomplished!" (Luke 12:50).

Knowning now that so many think Christ incapable of sin must also imply he suffered no distress and agony in overcoming temptation every day till he finally crucified that flesh on the cross.

Basically, you've created a "choose your own adventure" that disregards the fundamental tenet of Scripture.

You must also believe his baptism was just for show! That his words, "to fulfill all righteousness," were said in vain.

@Wrangler do you realise these people are wasting their time being Christian if they fail to comprehend the living example Christ showed to crucify the flesh if you are in Christ Jesus? Gal 5:24

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin Heb 4:15

They must remove Christ sympathy & empathy and add to this verse, "who could not sin"

@APAK

Do you think they can see this or have they been blinded and hardened in the same way the Jews cannot see their Messiah?

F2F
 
J

Johann

Guest
Only God changes the heart and grants repentance to know the truth

Acts 16
13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.
You think I'm not reborn? Must I speak in tongues? Hmm?

J.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
18,228
7,599
113
56
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They must remove Christ sympathy & empathy and add to this verse, "who could not sin"

Do you think they can see this or have they been blinded and hardened in the same way the Jews cannot see their Messiah?
Their dualism covers all the bases, the rational and correct and irrational and contrary to Scripture.

One newbie twisted my post, which said there is only one God, the Father, to be an equal expression that there cannot be 2 gods. He claimed we agree on that - while simultaneously ignoring my point entirely.

This is pathological dualism; claim there is agreement while there is total disagreement on the point.
 

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
4,051
2,604
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I just can't believe there are so many ignorant Christians in this forum who reject Christ came in sin's flesh!

Astounding!

F2F
He came in the flesh but he was born of a virgin, the immaculate conception, not born under sin.
Could he have sinned? Good question. I'm sure volumes have been written debating that question
 
  • Like
Reactions: David in NJ

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
You think I'm not reborn?

J.
How can you be Johann, if you speak as the anti-Christ.

Trinitarians, along with those who deny the sinfulness of the flesh, constitute the antichrist, for they reject two fundamental doctrines of the Word: the nature of flesh and God manifest in that flesh.

The Apostle John showed those who do so deny the Christ.

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 1:7

Johann, you deny that Christ was raised up out of sinful flesh to enable God to righteously remove its weakness, for God is a God of the living, not the dead!

F2F
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
He came in the flesh but he was born of a virgin, the immaculate conception, not born under sin.
Could he have sinned? Good question. I'm sure volumes have been written debating that question
So are you saying the virgin birth somehow changed his nature?
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@Wrangler
@ProDeo
@APAK
@David in NJ
@RedFan

See how Johann uses the word identification?

It's not Paul's "every respect" or is it in the likeness of sin's flesh BUT its a word which allows Johann's Christ to be distant enough from it sufficient for him to identify. Not fully man as Paul taught!

by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh.

The enmity (Gen 3) between the mind of the flesh and the mind of the Spirit was removed in Christ's sacrifice - in the offering of his body on the tree.

Here is the challenge for Johann - as far as you go with forcing the god-man try reading up on what God achieved "through" Christ flesh.

I think you would remove the word "identification" and replace it with Paul's inspired example/words!

For our sake he (God) made him (Jesus) to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinth 5:21

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:9

In other words Christ died to the flesh (sin) once but now lives unto (for) God

F2F
What is the point yo are trying to make here?

The scriptures are cyrstal clear!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.