Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Johann]

Very well put! I look forward to the mental pretzel Trinitarians contort themselves to respond to this one!

The Triune Godhead makes sense, not your ad hominems.

J.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Since when did the Deity become a philosophical fiction?

It's what seminaries teach (so called higher criticism)

 

[Johann]

It's what seminaries teach (so called higher criticism)

We are in the last days @Dan Clarkston.

J.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

We are in the last days @Dan Clarkston.

Yes, and in the last days many will come in Jesus Name and will deceive many (Math 24)

This is why we are seeing so much false doctrine being taught by people who claim to be Christians who are actually tares speaking in behalf of the devil

 

[Magdala]

If God is one being in three persons, then what happens to one of the persons happens to them all.

If God is three persons in one essence, then why does John treat them as distinctly different? If we assume that God is three persons in one essence, then why does John say that the Word became flesh?

Let me ask this a different way. Trinitarians use the term "Godhead" to indicate the one God. If John wanted to say that the Godhead became flesh, why didn't he say so? What I mean is, why do Trinitarians believe, on the one hand, that God is one in three persons, while at the very same time they believe that only one of the persons became flesh? Either God is ONE essence in three persons or he isn't.

Do you understand what I am asking?

Essence
The being of God, or what God is. The word "essence" comes from the Latin "esse", meaning "to be", so "one essence" means "one being".

Person
The mode of existence of God, or who God is. The term "person" comes from the Latin "persona", which has multiple meanings, including mask, role of an actor, and self-existence.

• One God: God is one being in Essence
  
  
• Three Persons: God is Three distinct Persons (the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit)
  
  
• United as one: The Three Persons are united as one in Essence

"[...] God is love" (1 Jn. 4:8)
The term "Godhead" refers to the Essence (love) of God existing in Three Persons: the Father (First Person), the Word (Second Person), and the Holy Spirit (Third Person). To help you better understand, water, for example, exists in three forms: solid, liquid, and vapor, each quite distinct, and not confused in relation to one another, but, rather, quite distinct, and one is not the other, but is still considered one substance. The Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit, each working differently and yet not working in a contrary fashion, united as one because They are the same Essence: love, and equal in all respects as regards Divinity, Eternity, Immensity, and Omnipotence, but not confused in relation to one another, but, rather, quite distinct, and One is not the Other, and yet there are not three gods, but a single God, Who in and of Himself has given being to the individual Divine Persons in generating the Son and, by that very act, originating the procession of the Holy Spirit.

"God is spirit [...]" (Jn. 4:24)
Matthew wrote, "an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, [...] Behold, the virgin shall conceive and give birth to a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel ( Ἐμμανουήλ)", which translated means “God is with us" (Matt. 1:23). John wrote, "The Word (Second Person) became flesh (man) and lived among us [...]" (Jn. 1:14). God, Who, as Man, was and is a visible King and, as God, is an invisible King because He is a most pure Spirit, to whom faith is tributed out of pure faith because human sight or any other human sense never saw God before He became incarnate and cannot physically see the First and Third Persons (the Father and the Holy Spirit), but sees Them in the works which were or are carried out by Them.

Jesus (the Word, the Son), when he was baptized, went up directly from the water: and behold, the heavens were opened to him. He saw the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) descending as a dove, and coming on Him. Behold, a Voice out of the heavens (the Father) said, “This is My beloved Son, with Whom I am well pleased.” (Matt. 3:16-17)

"Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19)

Is that understandable?

 

[ProDeo]

And you deliberately imply that Jesus the Christ = YHWH; without having the courage to say it explicitly.

I am on the same page as Johann, consider John 8

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Jesus referring to the burning bush revelation to Moses

Ex 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

The Jews understood what Jesus was saying about Himself [YHWH] and wanted to stone Him. You, me, if we had been there then maybe we would have picked up stones as well.

 

[Johann]

I am on the same page as Johann, consider John 8

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Jesus referring to the burning bush revelation to Moses

Ex 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

The Jews understood what Jesus was saying about Himself [YHWH] and wanted to stone Him. You, me, if we had been there then maybe we would have picked up stones as well.

I "liked" this not because we are on the same page but because it is the truth-see the LXX.

God bless @ProDeo.

J.

 

[Wrangler]

The Jews understood what Jesus was saying about Himself [YHWH]

Ever read the next verse; Ex 3:15?

 

[Wrangler]

This is why we are seeing so much false doctrine being taught by people who claim to be Christians who are actually tares speaking in behalf of the devil

Projecting. The trinity is not in the Bible.

 

[Johann]

Ever read the next verse; Ex 3:15?

Did you read the context and consider who the recipients are?

J.

 

[Wrangler]

Did you read the context and consider who the recipients are?

J.

Yes. God’s name is not Jesus or I am but YHWH according to Ex 3:15. This is his eternal name to be remembered for all generations.

‘I am’ is not even what YHWH said to Moses. It’s closer to eternal, I was, am and becoming. Still, I find it telling that trinitarians are forced to rely on fallible Jews to make their case, who later determined he not only sinned but deserved execution on a stake for committing blasphemy. Relying on their authority in the first instance means you have to rely on their authority in the second instance, making the whole Christian religion a sham. And if you accept their authority in the first instance, why do you reject it in the second instance?

 

[CadyandZoe]

In Latin terms, essence is often translated as "substantia", while personhood is rendered as "persona".

Would "persona" suffice?

No, not really.

In Trinitarian theology:

Substantia (Essence) refers to the one divine nature that is fully possessed by each of the three persons of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). All three persons share the same substantia, which means they are all fully and completely God.

I understand the concept of the Trinity, but your definition is contradictory. If we accept the idea that a single Substantia is comprised of three persona, as such, it isn't possible for each of them to individually "fully possess" the divine nature. The unity, taken as a whole, possesses the divine nature. The three persons don't share the same substantia; they ARE the same substantia. A Trinity is not three people with the same attributes; They are one entity that shares three people as attributes.

Thus, it isn't possible for one of the persona to become flesh. This is a major contradiction that needs to be addressed.

Makes perfect sense to me--but--

Since when did the Deity become a philosophical fiction? Is this really your belief?

Yes. The Trinity doctrine was developed by Platonists who were attempting to deal with a problem their Platonism produced. Rather than abandoning Plato, they developed a way to syncretize Plato with the New Testament. Since I am not a follower of Plato, I don't have that problem. I have no reason to tweak the New Testament to serve my philosophical beliefs.

I see no evidence for the idea that The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit share qualitative or numerical identity. Therefore, I am not in the market for philosophical fiction to help me understand how a human being can be qualitatively identical to God. The New Testament teaches us that Jesus is representationally equal to God instead.

I've noticed that you tend to disregard the Early Church Fathers, yet I believe I have adequately explained the doctrine of the Triune Godhead.

Yes, in my opinion, they can't be trusted as a source of correct doctrine.

Also, if you’ve observed, I don’t use the term "Trinity," but rather refer to the Triune Godhead.

I don't know the difference.

I have send you links, did you open them, or do you just want to pontificate?

J.

I have already spent many hours researching the subject. I'm sure I have already heard the arguments.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes. God’s name is not Jesus or I am but YHWH according to Ex 3:15. This is his eternal name to be remembered for all generations.

‘I am’ is not even what YHWH said to Moses. It’s closer to eternal, I was, am and becoming. Still, I find it telling that trinitarians are forced to rely on fallible Jews to make their case, who later determined he not only sinned but deserved execution on a stake for committing blasphemy. Relying on their authority in the first instance means you have to rely on their authority in the second instance, making the whole Christian religion a sham. And if you accept their authority in the first instance, why do you reject it in the second instance?

I agree with my friend and Bible teacher who said that YHWH means "I am he who is" a reference to the fact that he exists and that he is the only self-existent being.

 

[Wrangler]

The New Testament teaches us that Jesus is representationally equal to God instead.

And Jesus is not the only one. Scripture is filled with agents, doing the bidding of their principle. This applies to all prophets, by definition and angels. Hagar was seen by an angel and spoke for God, saying God sees you. (One could take the angels words as speaking about himself in the 3rd person).

And this leads to rationalizations that Jesus, explicitly said in Hebrews to NOT be an angel is ‘the angel of the LORD’ AS IF there are any other kind of angels.

Isaac’s servant was sent on a mission to find his son a wife. Joseph sent his agents to accuse his brothers of stealing. God sent Moses to Pharaoh and led the people to the Promised Land. God had Jacob conquer Canaan. God apparently delegated forgiving sins to Jesus, who, in turn, delegated forgiving sins to the Apostles.

In all cases, including up to the present time, agents represent their principle in the capacity they were delegated responsibility. Healthcare power of attorney does what? Make healthcare decisions for the principle in the event they cannot. Agency is a very common means of getting things done throughout all of the human experience. While the agents do the bidding of who they represent, everyone knows they are not their principle. This is also the case with how YHWH operates - through Jesus and through us. Being an agent for God does not make us God.

 

[Wrangler]

I agree with my friend and Bible teacher who said that YHWH means "I am he who is" a reference to the fact that he exists and that he is the only self-existent being.

The Bible is filled with such play on words in the original language, lost in translation. Jacob’s wife named their son one thing, which has negative meaning but after her death he renamed him Benjamin, which has a positive meaning.

Adam acted with remarkable faith in naming the women AFTER they were kicked out of the Garden. “Eve” is a word that in Aramaic means something like “mother of many”. Adam audacity to suppose they would live that long is remarkable in context.

Abram to Abraham. Jacob to Israel. Simon to Peter. Even Jesus says he will get a new name in Rev 3:12. But getting back to the name of God, YHWH; his name is different from what it means.

 

[Magdala]

If we accept the idea that a single Substantia is comprised of three persona, as such, it isn't possible for each of them to individually "fully possess" the divine nature. The unity, taken as a whole, possesses the divine nature. The three persons don't share the same substantia; they ARE the same substantia. A Trinity is not three people with the same attributes; They are one entity that shares three people as attributes.

Thus, it isn't possible for one of the persona to become flesh. This is a major contradiction that needs to be addressed.

This isn't an exact comparison, but if it's possible for water to exist in three forms: solid, liquid and vapor, each quite distinct, and not confused in relation to one another, but, rather, quite distinct, and one is not the other, but be united as one because they're the same substance: water, then why isn't it possible for God, Who's Essence is love, exist in three Persons: the Father, the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, each quite distinct, and not confused in relation to One another, but, rather, quite distinct, and One is not the Other, each working differently and yet not working in a contrary fashion, but be united as one because They are the same Essence: love?

 

[Wrangler]

if water can exist in three forms

4 forms of matter, not 3. What Are the States of Matter?

 

[Magdala]

4 forms of matter, not 3. What Are the States of Matter?

"States of matter" is a broad category encompassing all substances, while "states of water" focuses solely on the different forms of water itself: solid, liquid, and vapor.

 

[Johann]

I have already spent many hours researching the subject. I'm sure I have already heard the arguments.

What exactly are you doing here, interrogating me? One of us is wrong, and it’s not me. This is subtle-ekpeiradzo rather than dokimazo.

Be honest and upfront next time, @CadyandZoe.

J.

 

[face2face]

I don't think anyone here is denying the Man Christ Jesus-right? God manifest in the flesh-right?

J.

My head is spinning, Johann, because it seems that not only you and Prodeo believe Christ was incapable of sin, but many others as well. I understand why you must hold this belief, but it places you outside the body of Christ, and your Gospel is powerless to save if you don't acknowledge that Christ came in the flesh.

You do realize what that makes you, right?

F2F