Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[face2face]

In the beginning was not Jesus.

This is a strong point! As soon as one accepts that Jesus has a God the trinity falls over! @ProDeo @David in NJ

If everything which is "Of God" was made from His Logos then John 1:1 has been abused by Trinitarians for centuries!

By the word (Logos) of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. Psalm 33:6

You cannot create a "God the Son" out of the Word that came from the breath of God's mouth (which is clearly not another person, but a metaphor for God's power), no matter how much you twist John 1:1 with your Greek grammar rules (@Johann). The term was already used, and the psalmist provides a clearer understanding that is often overlooked by those trying to turn the Word into something it’s not—either another person of God, or a god, both interpretations being absurd.

Paul used the term in its intended context, which you all ignore (except Wrangler), referring to two individuals in 2 Timothy 2:17: "And their word/logos will eat as doth a canker, of whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who concerning the truth have erred."

Paul did not sanctify the term Trinitarians do, using it exclusively to refer to another person of God, and neither did John!

All of you would be wiser to thoroughly explore the Scriptures, rather than adding a new interpretation that was never intended by John or taught by any Apostle.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I get why the Trinitarian want's Jesus to be God because they can't comprehend how a man can live a sinless life.

So how did He do it?

You might want to read the Scriptures! Jesus said, "The Father that dwells in Me, He does the works" (John 14:10).

Jesus, a real man, also stated,

"I can of My own self do nothing" (John 5:30).

He didn’t even know the time of his own second coming—only the Father knew (Mark 13:32).

This is because it was the Father, as God, indwelling Him, performing the works and miracles. The Father gave the Spirit to the Son without measure (John 3:34).

So your awe and wonder misguided and misdirected into T dogma should be directed to the One True God who raised up an obedient Son out of sins flesh and conquered sin's power in the sacrifice of the flesh.

The mode of operation in the issue!

The phrase "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself"

2 Corinthians 5:19:

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word/Logos of reconciliation."

NOT

God was Christ....BUT working in and through him as a willing Son

F2F

 

[Magdala]

No thank you, I'll pass!
I'm more interested with engaging with those who are honest and make their beliefs known
F2F

So, you're making assertions that I'm dishonest and withholding, but not upholding them, seemingly because you don't have a response to post #666 and want to save face. That's not honest.

 

[face2face]

So, you're making assertions, but not upholding them up, seemingly because you don't have a response to post #666 and want to save face. That's not honest.

I've put forward all the facts during our discussing and you avoided them which you are entitled to do. I have nothing more to add at this time.

F2F

 

[Bladerunner]

Can you provide some evidence for this? All we have is the Bible’s account, and this scenario is entirely missing from Scripture. The sons of Anak were a very tall race of people who seemed like giants to the people of Israel. Remember Goliath and his brother, were exceedingly tall probably suffering from gigantism. Even today we have the Maasai in Africa who are a very tall race of people.

You might start with 'Antiquities of the Jews', by Josephus., Also you might look at the 'Defending the Book of Enoch' Rob Skeba., We know the giants, even those who are above average today have the gene (gigantism). before the angels browsed among the daughters of men, this gene was not. Again, God tells us Noah and His Family (sons) was perfect...they had not been tainted by the world at that time..Not so for the women of Noah's Sons..

Noah and his wife were the offspring of Adam...not perfect at all in their DNA. It was not the time for Messiah’s arrival and the demon angels had brought the human race to such abhorrent wickedness too soon, so that God had to intervene and produce a stop gap to reset the human race.....there was no redemption in the flood, and humans lived who had no right to, introducing a level,of wickedness that would be seen only upon Christ’s return. (Matt 24:37-39).....

God tells us that Noah and his family (sons) were perfect. From this one can gather their DNA did not have the gigantism gene. By the way, the blood carries the curse of Adam for if it were DNA, some would not have it and some would have double. By the way, there were only 8 people who lived through the flood. they were in God's Hands so they had every right.

God cleansed the earth and started afresh, eliminating the Nephilim and sending their errant father’s back to the spirit realm, where he dealt with them, putting them under restraint so that they could never materialised again.
Faithful angel’s continued to bring messages to God’s earthly servants, but the rebel angels caused trouble from the invisible realm, as we see in the accounts of those who were demon possessed in Bible times.
And even today there are people who have trouble with evil spirits.....

The evil spirits that roam the earth are the spirits of the giants. God pitted them against each other and forced the parents to watch. Those spirit will roam the earth until the Great White Throne Judgement.

 

[Johann]

You cannot create a "God the Son" out of the Word that came from the breath of God's mouth (which is clearly not another person, but a metaphor for God's power), no matter how much you twist John 1:1 with your Greek grammar rules (@Johann).

You might want to try again.

The Logos (λόγος) is presented in the New Testament, particularly in John 1:1-18, as more than just a concept, word, or divine plan-it is explicitly identified as a person. This personhood is central to understanding the nature of the Logos in Trinitarian theology. The scriptural basis for this includes the following:

John 1:1-4:

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men."

This passage affirms that the Logos pre-existed creation, coexisted with God, and is divine. The use of "with God" (πρὸς τὸν θεόν) implies relational distinction. The Logos is also described as the agent of creation, an action attributed to a personal being.
John 1:14:

"And the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Here, the Logos takes on human nature, clearly identifying the Logos as the incarnate Christ. The "dwelling" among us (ἐσκήνωσεν) reflects personal, tangible interaction.
John 1:15-18:

John the Baptist testifies about the Logos: "John bore witness of him and cried, saying, 'This was he of whom I spoke, He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me.'"

This testimony emphasizes the preexistence and superiority of the Logos as a person who interacts with humanity.

Colossians 1:16-17:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible... all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

This passage parallels John 1, identifying Christ as the Creator and Sustainer of all things-a role requiring personhood.

Hebrews 1:2-3:

"In these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power..."

This identifies the Logos (as the Son) not as an abstract concept but as the active, personal agent of God’s revelation and creation.

Revelation 19:13:

"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Logos of God."

This verse directly names the victorious Christ as the Logos, showing his personal identity.

Marvin R. Vincent, in his seminal work Word Studies in the New Testament, provides an insightful examination of the term "Logos" as used in John 1:1.

Vincent emphasizes that the Logos is far more than a mere spoken word or abstract concept; it is a dynamic and personal expression of God. Here are the key elements from his commentary:

The Logos as Preexistent and Divine:
Vincent notes that "In the beginning was the Word" (John 1:1) points to the Logos's eternal existence. The term "was" (ἦν) in the Greek denotes continuous, timeless existence, which aligns with the divine nature of the Logos.

Vincent rejects any interpretation that reduces the Logos to an impersonal attribute, such as God's reason or plan. And so do I-shame on you!

The Logos and Relationship with God:
On the phrase "the Word was with God" (πρὸς τὸν θεόν), Vincent highlights that the preposition "πρὸς" (with) indicates not mere proximity but an active, dynamic relationship. This suggests the Logos exists as a distinct person who has a deep, intimate relationship with God the Father.

The Logos as God:
Vincent shows that "the Word was God" (θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος) affirms the full divinity of the Logos. The absence of the definite article before "God" (θεὸς) in the Greek text avoids modalism (confusing the persons of the Trinity) and instead affirms the qualitative essence of the Logos as truly divine.

The Logos as Creator and Agent of Revelation:
Vincent draws attention to the Logos as the active agent of creation, as seen in John 1:3: "All things were made by him."

This creative activity is not attributed to an abstract force but to a personal being capable of intentional action.

Additionally, in John 1:14, the Logos becomes incarnate, further affirming personal identity through the act of dwelling among humanity.

The Philosophical and Theological Context:
Vincent explores the background of the term Logos in both Greek and Hebrew thought. While Greek philosophy (e.g., Heraclitus, Stoics) viewed the Logos as the rational principle of the universe, and Jewish theology saw it as the creative Word of God (as in Genesis 1), Vincent asserts that John's Gospel transcends both frameworks. The Logos, in John's presentation, is not an abstract principle but a person—the Son of God—who reveals and embodies divine truth.

Key Takeaways from Vincent:
The Logos is a person who is both distinct from God the Father and fully divine.

The Logos is the eternal and active agent in creation and revelation, capable of personal relationships with both God and humanity.

John’s use of "Logos" harmonizes with and surpasses philosophical and theological antecedents by presenting the Logos as the incarnate Christ.

Vincent’s analysis strongly supports the interpretation of the Logos as a personal being, consistent with the traditional Christian understanding of Jesus Christ as the eternal Son of God.

J.

 

[face2face]

You might want to try again.
J.

You don't have the T formula J, or the context.

As soon as the Word made....you have Psalm 33:6-9

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Johann,

Let me ask you a question.

How would you prefer the Trinity to be revealed in the Word of God, if you could shape it? Would you want it presented in a complex theological form, or would you prefer it to be revealed in pieces throughout the text? Would you like the doctrine to be outlined in a specific chapter of a book, perhaps in Romans or Hebrews?

Hebrews has Jesus made a little lower than the Angels BUT given a name and position higher than them due to his obedience. Could you rewrite Hebrews 1 to show how God transformed Himself into a Man and died holding dual natures etc etc?

I know I'm asking you to write your own Bible but curious how you would want it revealed if it were true, which we know it is not.

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

You might want to try again.

The Logos (λόγος) is presented in the New Testament, particularly in John 1:1-18, as more than just a concept, word, or divine plan-it is explicitly identified as a person. This personhood is central to understanding the nature of the Logos in Trinitarian theology. The scriptural basis for this includes the following:

John 1:1-4:

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men."

This passage affirms that the Logos pre-existed creation, coexisted with God, and is divine. The use of "with God" (πρὸς τὸν θεόν) implies relational distinction. The Logos is also described as the agent of creation, an action attributed to a personal being.
John 1:14:

"And the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Here, the Logos takes on human nature, clearly identifying the Logos as the incarnate Christ. The "dwelling" among us (ἐσκήνωσεν) reflects personal, tangible interaction.
John 1:15-18:

John the Baptist testifies about the Logos: "John bore witness of him and cried, saying, 'This was he of whom I spoke, He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me.'"

This testimony emphasizes the preexistence and superiority of the Logos as a person who interacts with humanity.

Colossians 1:16-17:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible... all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

This passage parallels John 1, identifying Christ as the Creator and Sustainer of all things-a role requiring personhood.

Hebrews 1:2-3:

"In these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power..."

This identifies the Logos (as the Son) not as an abstract concept but as the active, personal agent of God’s revelation and creation.

Revelation 19:13:

"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Logos of God."

This verse directly names the victorious Christ as the Logos, showing his personal identity.

J.

@Johann @face2face @Wrangler

i am signing out for i am very tired - THEREFORE - i leave you THREE with this TRUTH

Psalm 16:1-2

Preserve me, O God, for in You I put my trust.
O my soul, you have said to the Lord,
“You are my Lord,
My goodness is nothing apart from You.”

SHALOM & Good nite

 

[Johann]

@Johann,

Let me ask you a question.

How would you prefer the Trinity to be revealed in the Word of God, if you could shape it? Would you want it presented in a complex theological form, or would you prefer it to be revealed in pieces throughout the text? Would you like the doctrine to be outlined in a specific chapter of a book, perhaps in Romans or Hebrews?

Hebrews has Jesus made a little lower than the Angels BUT given a name and position higher than them due to his obedience. Could you rewrite Hebrews 1 to show how God transformed Himself into a Man and died holding dual natures etc etc?

I know I'm asking you to write your own Bible but curious how you would want it revealed if it were true, which we know it is not.

F2F

I present the Scriptures to address your inadequate view of the Messiah's divine nature and do not wish to engage in further discussion.

J.

 

[Magdala]

I've put forward all the facts during our discussing and you avoided them which you are entitled to do. I have nothing more to add at this time.

F2F

That's another baseless assertion about me added to the previous two you've made. I don't know the reason for why you would do that, except for the one given in post #764.

 

[Johann]

You don't have the T formula J, or the context.

As soon as the Word made....you have Psalm 33:6-9

Flawed hermeneutics: The Greek term Logos refers to a message or discourse, not merely a single word. In this context, it serves as a title, used by the Greeks to denote "world reason" and by the Hebrews as synonymous with "Wisdom." John intentionally chose this term to emphasize that God's Word is both a person and a divine message.

Additionally, there is a lack of proper cross-referencing and contextualization in interpreting this concept on your end.

J.

 

[face2face]

I present the Scriptures to address your inadequate view of the Messiah's divine nature and do not wish to engage in further discussion.

J.

Jesus didn't have divine nature J...we have been over this so many times.

Jesus was like you in "every respect!"

F2F

 

[face2face]

Flawed hermeneutics: The Greek term Logos refers to a message or discourse, not merely a single word. In this context, it serves as a title, used by the Greeks to denote "world reason" and by the Hebrews as synonymous with "Wisdom." John intentionally chose this term to emphasize that God's Word is both a person and a divine message.

Additionally, there is a lack of proper cross-referencing and contextualization in interpreting this concept on your end.

J.

Are you denying God used His Logos (breath) to create the Heavens? And the same Logos to make a man called Jesus?

Your hermeneutics is based in the philosophies of men.

F2F

 

[Johann]

Jesus didn't have divine nature J...we have been over this so many times.

Jesus was like you in "every respect!"

F2F

You are digging a hole for yourself--

John 1:1:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Jesus (the Word) is declared to be God, coeternal and coexistent with the Father.
John 1:14:

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

The Word, already affirmed as God in verse 1, became incarnate in Jesus Christ.
John 20:28:

"And Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God.'"

Thomas directly addresses Jesus as God, and Jesus accepts this declaration.

Colossians 2:9:

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

Paul states that the entirety of God’s divine nature resides in Jesus in bodily form.

Titus 2:13:

"Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

Jesus is explicitly called "God and Savior" in this verse.

Hebrews 1:8:

"But to the Son He says: 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.'"
The Father addresses the Son as God, affirming His divine kingship.

Divine Titles
Emmanuel (God with Us):

Matthew 1:23: "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
This title affirms Jesus as God dwelling among humanity.

The Alpha and the Omega:

Revelation 22:13: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
Jesus claims the same divine title used for God in Revelation 1:8.
Son of God:


"Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God."

Jesus is described as possessing the very nature of God.

These passages clearly and emphatically affirm that Jesus Christ possesses a divine nature, coequal with God the Father.

I have already corrected you three times using Scripture alone, without any commentary.

J.

 

[face2face]

@Johann @face2face @Wrangler

i am signing out for i am very tired - THEREFORE - i leave you THREE with this TRUTH

Psalm 16:1-2

Preserve me, O God, for in You I put my trust.
O my soul, you have said to the Lord,
“You are my Lord,
My goodness is nothing apart from You.”

SHALOM & Good nite

And later in that Psalm we have a Man of God called the Son of Man who trusted in his God to raise him from the Grave.

"For You will not abandon my soul (life / existence) to Sheol (grave), nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay,"

The issue here for many is if Christ remained in the tomb his body would have broken down to dust as he was a man like you and I.

The reason God couldnt leave him in the grave was due to his sinless life so death (its dominion) called not hold him. God had removed sins power in the life and death of His Son.

So your quote is rather ironic as you have shown us how Jesus put his trust in His God and He redeemed Jesus from the grave.

Hebrews calls it the "eternal redemption" which Christ obtained through his own sacrifice.

he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Heb 9:12

F2F

 

[Johann]

Are you denying God used His Logos (breath) to create the Heavens? And the same Logos to make a man called Jesus?

The Logos is not simply God’s breath or spoken word; it is the eternal Son, fully divine and the agent of creation. Jesus is not a man created by the Logos; He is the Logos who became flesh.

This interpretation aligns with the biblical witness to the divinity of Christ and His role in creation and redemption.

You have it backwards.

J.

 

[face2face]

You are digging a hole for yourself--

John 1:1:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Jesus (the Word) is declared to be God, coeternal and coexistent with the Father.
John 1:14:

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

The Word, already affirmed as God in verse 1, became incarnate in Jesus Christ.
John 20:28:

"And Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God.'"

Thomas directly addresses Jesus as God, and Jesus accepts this declaration.

Colossians 2:9:

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

Paul states that the entirety of God’s divine nature resides in Jesus in bodily form.

Titus 2:13:

"Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

Jesus is explicitly called "God and Savior" in this verse.

Hebrews 1:8:

"But to the Son He says: 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.'"
The Father addresses the Son as God, affirming His divine kingship.

Divine Titles
Emmanuel (God with Us):

Matthew 1:23: "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
This title affirms Jesus as God dwelling among humanity.

The Alpha and the Omega:

Revelation 22:13: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
Jesus claims the same divine title used for God in Revelation 1:8.
Son of God:


"Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God."

Jesus is described as possessing the very nature of God.

These passages clearly and emphatically affirm that Jesus Christ possesses a divine nature, coequal with God the Father.

I have already corrected you three times using Scripture alone, without any commentary.

J.

Which verse above states Jesus had divine nature J?

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Johann

17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Your Jesus cannot be a High Priest Johann,

Not sure if you know this but you would still be in your sins if Christ wasn't born into Sin's Flesh.

You have no atonement with your god-man!

F2F

 

[APAK]

Jesus didn't have divine nature J...we have been over this so many times.

Jesus was like you in "every respect!"

F2F

And I would say much more humble that J. and myself. He was and is a true servant of both man and his God, his Father.

It's a shame that these Bini and Trini -tarians ...miss out on knowing the true Jesus written in scripture and as the Spirit would want them to read and understand him. They are instead constantly wrestling with scripture and even the Spirit to find loop-holes and weaknesses in order to install their pagan hooks of their three not so co-operative and not-so-equal gods as called only one god, not found in scripture.

Now I believe I read that J. as he does change his definitions a lot, now views logos akin to 'world reason' and to the Hebrews use of it as wisdom that employs both a personage to it. What next I wonder is he going to come up with.....