Did ANYONE In Scripture (Including Jesus), Claim Jesus IS God?

[Taken]

My point is logic works. Contradictions do not exist b reality. Either Jesus is a man as the Bible explicitly teaches repeatedly or the Bible is wrong.

If the Bible is wrong, there is still no reason to suppose Jesus is God incarnate.

The LORD has Appeared to human Earthly men ……. IN the Likeness…Appearance to the EYES of human men….AS a human man.

Even called a men….because He Appeared AS a man….
Does that MEAN The LORD IS a Created man?

Bruce Jenner…appears AS a Female…is called a woman…Does that mean he is a female?

As / IS little words matter.

God IS Spirit…That which is IN God IS Spirit.
That which comes forth out from God, Remains IN God.

Any Clue Where Jesus Came From?

Hint….within God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

Any Clue Where Jesus Came From?

Hint….within God.

See Deut 18:15-18. The logos of YHWH, his detailed plan unfolded in Luke 2 and Matthew 2.

 

[MA2444]

My point is logic works. Contradictions do not exist b reality. Either Jesus is a man as the Bible explicitly teaches repeatedly or the Bible is wrong.

If the Bible is wrong, there is still no reason to suppose Jesus is God incarnate.

You know what though? Jesus walked into my room and spoke to me, audibly. I could not see Him, but I knew who it was before He even spoke. Believe me Brother, when Jesus walks into the room...there is no mistaking what and who is going on.

That's one of the cool things about experience, I'm never at the mercy of one who has doctrine! He is alive, He is incarnate, and He wrote the book that you can believe every single word of.

I prolly have 20 or 30 good testimonies of some eyebrow raising miracles have been presented to me. And maybe 30 big things that are exciting enough to share. He does little things for me every day. Because the first couple were given to me and beyond the miracle it gave me more confidence in my faith and in Him. So that I would walk in a deeper faith with Him. And I have done it in my own struggling way, lol. And I have come to understand that if there is a seemingly contradiction in scripture, it's not because it's untrue. The problems lies in me and my lack of understanding. But the more faith that you walk in, the more you progress and grow spiritually.

He wants unknowing so we have to have Faith in Him. We either trust Him or we don't. It's like we build a resume of trust between us. He shows me something, then I show Him something. Then He does something else for me, then He says, hey Ed where did you go? (Lol) and I say oh, yes Lord and walk i a greater faith than I had before and push the edge of the envelope of Faith!

I asked why Lord, why so much? (lazy man that I am, lol) and the Lord pointed me to the parable about the Donkey that they took for Jesus to ride for His triumphant entry into Jerusalem. A stupid little donkey that is untrained and has never had to bear a burden yet...That's us! He will ride that Donkey again to His victory, and the donkey's name is "Us"

I never thought about it that way before. but I certainly see what He was saying. Plus there's those verses what say hold your faith until the end and endure. So there's that...Lol. It's all an exercise in trust.

He don't always answer all my questions either! One time I asked Him something and it was like, He ignored the question and He changed the subject on me! What it was was, I didn't ask the right question and He spoke of an aspect of the question's answer that I hadn't even come to my mind yet and it was significant and I was able to catch up with Him in convo once I considered something else and it's effects! I was being dumb, lol. It happens.

 

[MA2444]

He wants unknowing so we have to have Faith in Him. We either trust Him or we don't. It's like we build a resume of trust between us. He shows me something, then I show Him something. Then He does something else for me, then He says, hey Ed where did you go? (Lol) and I say oh, yes Lord and walk i a greater faith than I had before and push the edge of the envelope of Faith!

The Lord wants us to walk in a deeper faith today than we did yesterday.

Think about it, Jesus in scripture, when He was healing someone, Jesus didn't pray to God to heal them. He just healed them by His authority in the Father.
When Jesus cast out evil spirits from people, He didn't pray to God to do it. Not even for the epileptic! He did in in His Authority...then He completed his task on earth to give His life for His sheep...but before He went back to heaven, He gave all us Believers the same authority, which is in Christ, in His name. Jesus said, all that I do you will do and more, I give you authority to do these things. So go! Go out and cast out evil spirits, raise the dead, heal people...and these signs will follow those who Believe. (That part means not just for the disciples, but all of us)

So most Christians are having an identity crises in the Lord. Stand on your spiritual feet, let your light so shine before men. But you have to take the steps. You have to lay hands on the people, or speak directly to the evil spirit like Jesus did when He casted them out of people.

Do something today which requires more faith then you had yesterday, and just trust God and do it. Just do it! You may be pleasantly surprised!

 

[Taken]

See Deut 18:15-18. The logos of YHWH, his detailed plan unfolded in Luke 2 and Matthew 2.

See …

John 16:
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I (Jesus speaking) came out from God.

John 14:
[11] Believe me that I (Jesus speaking) am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 10:
[30] I (Jesus speaking) and my Father are one.

One what?
One Being?
One Truth?
One Word?
One All Knowing?
One God?
One Spirit?
One All Mighty Power?
One Seed?
One Power?
One Wisdom?
One Savior?
One Creator and Maker?
One without Beginning or Ending?


Yes…ONE Lord God Almighty, that WAS, IS, and IS to Come.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler, it's astonishing how a false doctrine can lead a sincere believer like Marks to believe that a dead man can raise himself. Such is the power of self-deception. Jesus warned us that in the last days, many would be led astray.

Anything goes when one abdicates reason and embraces contradiction. The most basic contradiction of the man-is-god thesis is this:

1. The term “God” refers to a plurality of persons, a committee of 3, if you will.
2. One person, Jesus is “fully” God.

Rationalizations to make Jesus God do not logically stop with this one man. For instance, if God’s spirit, given to Jesus, makes him God, it makes us all God also. So, no matter how you look at it, the trinity is intrinsically defeated because it is internally contradictory.

 

[Taken]

Anything goes when one abdicates reason and embraces contradiction. The most basic contradiction of the man-is-god thesis is this:

1. The term “God” refers to a plurality of persons, a committee of 3, if you will.
2. One person, Jesus is “fully” God.

Rationalizations to make Jesus God do not logically stop with this one man. For instance, if God’s spirit, given to Jesus, makes him God, it makes us all God also. So, no matter how you look at it, the trinity is intrinsically defeated because it is internally contradictory.

Disagree.

Your Own Three Separate Make up…
Is Body
Is Soul
is Spirit

Are you Three men?

 

[Wrangler]

Disagree.

Your Own Three Separate Make up…
Is Body
Is Soul
is Spirit

Are you Three men?

A person is a whole. Can’t compare equally to attributes of a person, which is much more than the magic, Pagan 3.

 

[Johann]

@Wrangler, it's astonishing how a false doctrine can lead a sincere believer like Marks to believe that a dead man can raise himself. Such is the power of self-deception. Jesus warned us that in the last days, many would be led astray.

@marks is biblically sound.

Acts 2:24: "Whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it."

The Spirit raised Jesus:

Romans 8:11: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

Jesus raised Himself:

John 10:18: "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

 

[Taken]

A person is a whole. Can’t compare equally to attributes of a person, which is much more than the magic, Pagan 3.

No clue your comment intent or meaning, that magic has anything to do with a Spiritual conversation.

Components of Three makeup One Individual; God and manKind made in His Likeness.

whole spirit
and
whole soul
and
whole body

1 Thes 5:23

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[face2face]

And why do they have to disrespect Jesus’s sacrifice, which was TOTAL, not 1/2, only 1 of his natures?

They all need to think about this! They won't but they should!

 

[face2face]

@marks is biblically sound.

Acts 2:24: "Whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it."

The Spirit raised Jesus:

Romans 8:11: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

Jesus raised Himself:

John 10:18: "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

Correct, God's Spirit raised Jesus from the dead and not Christ himself.

 

[face2face]

@marks is biblically sound.

Acts 2:24: "Whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it."

The Spirit raised Jesus:

Romans 8:11: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

Jesus raised Himself:

John 10:18: "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

Now I have more time to address your (and Marks') inferences.

Acts 2:24 speaks of Yahweh raising His Son.

Romans 8:11 explains the method, stating that it was the Spirit of God (Yahweh) who raised Christ from the dead, granting Him everlasting life. This aligns with Romans 1:4, which proclaims, "who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord."

The Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit are synonymous terms!

John 10:18 speaks of Christ receiving the command to lay down His life willingly, fully aware of His Father's promise that He would not be left in the grave to experience corruption.

Lets test this knowledge:

For you (God) will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. Psalm 16:10

AND

Therefore he says also in another psalm, “‘You (God) will not let your Holy One see corruption.’ Acts 13:35

So what was the commandment God gave Jesus?

Isaiah records: "By his knowledge shall My just servant justify many" (ch. 53:11)

And what of Jeremiah?

Jeremiah wrote: "I (God) will raise unto David a just branch" (ch. 23:5).

But wait - did this apply only to Jesus? This knowledge?

It means David could anticipate his own resurrection to immortality (2 Sam. 7:16)

7:16 Your house and your kingdom will stand before me permanently; your dynasty will be permanent.’ ” 2 Sa 7:16.

Ironically, both you, Johann, and Marks, in this rebuttal, have revealed yourselves to be those who would reject the saving knowledge that, like Christ, could save you both.

It's utter madness!

F2F

@Wrangler you see how the Trinity in this thread (theme) is so distructive it removes all dependancy on the Father to save His Children. Consider that for a moment - they rob God the Victory over Sin's Flesh AND they rob Him of His own Power to raise His Son. There is nothing the Trinity cannot polute in the Word of God.

 

[face2face]

Anything goes when one abdicates reason and embraces contradiction. The most basic contradiction of the man-is-god thesis is this:

1. The term “God” refers to a plurality of persons, a committee of 3, if you will.
2. One person, Jesus is “fully” God.

Rationalizations to make Jesus God do not logically stop with this one man. For instance, if God’s spirit, given to Jesus, makes him God, it makes us all God also. So, no matter how you look at it, the trinity is intrinsically defeated because it is internally contradictory.

Correct, the correlation between Jesus and the children God has given him cannot be downplayed. We participate in his death, resurrection, and life. Every aspect of his life and sacrifice serves as a living example of how we, too, can put the flesh to death and live by the Spirit. John 17 speaks of the glory that Jesus shared with God (in Logos and Mind), a glory we will also receive by God’s grace when Christ appears.

"Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

Now, I ask you, if you apply Trinitarian methodology to this verse, what conclusion do you reach?

F2F

 

[CadyandZoe]

I think that's a fair statement. Because if it were truth, and you didn't believe it, it would be a lack of spiritual discernment, a lack of the truth in you.

I get that, but I was hoping to dialog about the opposite case. What if something is NOT true and I don't believe it? Would it be fair to conclude that I was lacking spiritual discernment?

In other words, is it fair to accuse someone of lacking spiritual discernment simply because they disagree with me? Maybe I am wrong, and the other person is right.

Everyone affirms their own beliefs as being true. To do otherwise would be irrational. Suppose I say that the passage means 'X' and my opponent claims that a passage means 'Y'. We both believe we are correct. But one or both of us are incorrect.

I understand the temptation to conclude that my opponent lacks spiritual discernment, but it would be unfair and unrighteous to do so because there might be good reasons for his conclusions that I can't yet see.

Those who are seeking the truth from the Bible must remain humble before the passage and adopt the following attitude: I think I am right but I could be wrong. Those who are humble before the text are seeking the actual meaning of the text, and as such, they are willing to change their mind in the light of new evidence.

How do you tell the difference between a wrong, invalid claim and a claim that is incomprehensible to the natural man?

That's a good question. The Lord has within us many ways to talk to us. Ask 1000 different people and you'll get 1000 different answers!

I can only tell you how He has talked to me and encouraged my faith. And that's sort of a deep answer because of the different ways He has used to speak to me. I have prayed so long and so much for Wisdom & Understanding and spiritual discernment that it almost seems redundant to any more, lol. But still I ask.

Praise the Lord. You are truly blessed.

Let's focus on the Bible and how it communicates with us. While the Lord may share personal messages with me (and He has), I do not expect other Christians to take my word for it. I understand that I have not been assigned a role similar to that of Jesus or the Apostles. Consequently, I do not speak with their authority, and I do not expect anyone to believe me simply because I say something is true.

In a back-and-forth internet dialog, all we can do is make our best case for what we believe and leave it on the table for others to pick up if they find our reasons to be compelling.

One way was, I was watching a teaching video on youtube, or maybe it was a testimony video? And it was a great Testimony (if it was real and true)! And I remember wondering if that was really true what I was watching? And I phrased it in my mind like it was a question to God, Lord is this true?! And He answered immediately in Spirit. Not with words, but something happened to me inside of me and I felt this...I don't know what it was but it felt good and put my spirit at peace. It was like, He pinged my spirit like submarines pinging each other. I didn't know what it was, I was a young Christian! So I called it, He "pinged" my spirit, and He let me now that what I was watching was true.
But over time, I think I have it figured it out and what He did was to quicken my spirit. That must be what He did to answer me. And ever since then, He still does it sometimes with other videos too but not with all videos.

Thanks for sharing your testimony and your experience.

I have been watching a movie before, and he touches my spirit and brings me to tears at spots to try to teach me about compassion and love. I never creied to a movie in my life (until the Lord!) I was the guy who always always was cracking jokes during chick flick night with the wife when she would cry at some part of the movie. WHo cries? Men don't cry! The first movie that was ever to bring me to tears was the first time I watched Passion of the Christ. He hit me hard with that movie and the only thing He seemed to say was, it was actually worse than that for me but it is the best depiction of Him so far and that they captured His Character very well! Wow.

I hear you. I had a similar reaction to the movie.

I think being led by he Spirit is talking to Him so much that we become sensitive to His presence within us. (The Friend, who sticks closer than a Brother!) I ca feel His presence within me. But can feel Him is sort of misleading because it isn't an emotional response or of the flesh, but it is a perceiving within us nonetheless.

And what do we do with our best friend with us? Well, you can't ignore Him so you talk to Him. And eventually I started becoming able to here His still small voice! That one's too long for this post, lol. But what do you think that did my prayer life?! Brother, I wanted to talk to Him all the time! Even about trivial stuff! The Lord loves small talk, but not all the time.

Thanks. I appreciated hearing about your being led by the Lord. Keep on praying, meditating and studying. And keep up the dialog with other Christians. :)

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Point of Having available The written Word of God…is reliance On His Word for Verification for what you hear.

Is the Moons Makeup Material even an Issue that requires your consideration to wonder or believe someone with no firsthand knowledge?

It Is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with Spiritual Belief in God.

Glory To God,
Taken

I understand the concept of spiritual belief. But I take issue with an appeal to spiritual discernment because it unfairly and unjustly condemns those with which we disagree. I don't know another person's heart. And I should never presume that I am always right. I might be the one who is wrong.

 

[Taken]

I understand the concept of spiritual belief. But I take issue with an appeal to spiritual discernment because it unfairly and unjustly condemns those with which we disagree. I don't know another person's heart. And I should never presume that I am always right. I might be the one who is wrong.

True…Agree…regarding knowing an others heart.

Nor on a forum of strangers is intent clearly revealed…
Genuine interest for godly path walkers?
Genuine interest in a point not thought of?
Get a rise with nonsense issues?
A place to daily whine about silly stuff?
On and on there is a mix.

As far as myself…I go to the SOURCE.
Meaning I read Gods Word, Study Gods Word…and Consult God for His Understanding.

I notice others citing long lists of their sources outside of Scripture…which neither impressed me or captures my time.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

Rationalizations to make Jesus God do not logically stop with this one man. For instance, if God’s spirit, given to Jesus, makes him God, it makes us all God also. So, no matter how you look at it, the trinity is intrinsically defeated because it is internally contradictory.

"Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

Now, I ask you, if you apply Trinitarian methodology to this verse, what conclusion do you reach?

As I said, the formula leads to the conclusion that we are all God.

In addition to expanding beyond 3 is rationalizations to support the man-is God thesis necessarily cut off the HS.

• If “the Father and I are one” means Jesus is God, why is the HS excluded from this account? It becomes a very strong anti-trinitarian verse.
• If ‘Jesus was given all authority’ proves he is God, then one must conclude the HS is NOT God since he has no authority.

 

[MA2444]

I get that, but I was hoping to dialog about the opposite case. What if something is NOT true and I don't believe it? Would it be fair to conclude that I was lacking spiritual discernment?

In other words, is it fair to accuse someone of lacking spiritual discernment simply because they disagree with me? Maybe I am wrong, and the other person is right.

Everyone affirms their own beliefs as being true. To do otherwise would be irrational. Suppose I say that the passage means 'X' and my opponent claims that a passage means 'Y'. We both believe we are correct. But one or both of us are incorrect.

I understand the temptation to conclude that my opponent lacks spiritual discernment, but it would be unfair and unrighteous to do so because there might be good reasons for his conclusions that I can't yet see.

Those who are seeking the truth from the Bible must remain humble before the passage and adopt the following attitude: I think I am right but I could be wrong. Those who are humble before the text are seeking the actual meaning of the text, and as such, they are willing to change their mind in the light of new evidence.

Those sound like good questions for a moderator, who am I?

If one guy says a passage means X and you believe it to mean Y, then someone is lacking in spiritual discernment for sure.

Accusing someone of having a lack of spiritual discernment isn't the best course of action because it will touch the other mans pride and the argument is on. So that would be sort of a distraction into a rabbit hole and not even the topic any more? How edifying is that?

Let's focus on the Bible and how it communicates with us. While the Lord may share personal messages with me (and He has), I do not expect other Christians to take my word for it. I understand that I have not been assigned a role similar to that of Jesus or the Apostles. Consequently, I do not speak with their authority, and I do not expect anyone to believe me simply because I say something is true.

In a back-and-forth internet dialog, all we can do is make our best case for what we believe and leave it on the table for others to pick up if they find our reasons to be compelling.

Yeah, it usually comes across as I know I'm right because the Lord said thus...so thus sayeth the Lord is not prone to be accepted by many people. It sounds sort of arrogant. If you know something is true and someone don't believe you, so what? They might not have eyes to see or ears to hear with yet, so arguing with them never edifies anyone. If one soul comes along and has eyes to see and ears to hear then you hve planted a seed, right?

But if you argue with the non-believer for 3 pages then it's easy to lose your credibility through emotions and poor choices of words.

Thanks for sharing your testimony and your experience.

That's what I do Brother. I've been sharing more and more of my testimonies lately and I decided, I don't care if people believe me or not. The time is short and people need to know these things about God, so you can believe me if you want to or not believe me if you want to. I don't argue about my testimonies any more, I know the truth and it's a distraction to start talking oh coincidence blah blah blah and all that crap from non spiritual people who have no ears or eyes.

Like when I prayed for help because I was behind in rent, and so the Lord sent an Angel (looked like a man) to my garage sale and bought a pile of junk from me for $2400! Just to help me. I got raked over the coals for that testimony! That was a man and he was simply being stupid with money....Uhhh, yeah right, lol. I know better, I was there!

When that Angel walked in to my garage sale, he came right to the point and asked me, how much do you need? Before he even looked at anything! I had no clue it was an Angel and so I went into salesman mode and started talking about the merchandise, I'd show him something and talk about it and he took it and said, that's nice and set it down again and looked right at me and said again, How much do you need? I didn't even know what he was talking about so I ignored the question. And that guy asked me prolly 10 more times after that, how much do you need? Then he said well how about $1900 for everything on that table? Now that stuff wasn't worth $1900, no way. SO I ignored it. I was going (TILT) like a pinball machine! SO he says, well how about $2400 then?

And I had had enough and wanted to hear this punch line that he kept leading up to with his ow much do you need. Now if that stuff on that table (4X8 plywood) wasn't worth 1900 then it wasn't worth 2400, lol. So I wanted to hear the punch line. So I said, that's fine...and the punch line was 24 $100 bills counted out for me! He put the rest of a huge wad of cash back in his wallet! I helped him box everything up with some boxes and he started taking stuff out of the boxes and putting them back on the table...?!
I wont need that you can keep it. This too, and that oh and that too! I couldn't believe what he was doing. He left aproxx 25% of the stuff behind that he had just paid for, that don't make sense somwhere! We shook hands and I bid him farewell and he drove off.

I locked up the garage and went back in the house. As I'm walking down the basement stairs to the family room I out my hand in my pocket and felt that wad of cash and I said, Praise the Lord and it was at that exact moment that it hit me...I had prayed to God for help less than 2 hours ago one goofy customer and I had the 2 grand for behind rent, the 300 for my Utility bill shut off notice for this Monday (it was Saturday) and an extra $100 for groceries. It was weird, I knew that was the truth in every fiber of my being. Praise the Lord Indeed!

That's a huge testimony! One fervent prayer and in less than 2 hours I had everything I needed. It was for a bunch of household knick knacks and house stuff and one tool left over from my divorce. It wasn't worth that much money. I've had lots of garage sales over the years and people dont act like that in a garage sale. People don't talk the price up, they say, will you take a dollar instead of 5? A couple hundred bucks for everything on the table and I would have jumped on it without a thought. But he said 1900? How about 2400?

Oh, he was prolly a Flea Market seller and was restocking...(Ha!) They still don't talk the price up!

Well then a stupid kid with more money than brains? No way, he was full grown and filled out as a man, maybe 35 - 38 yrs old. He looked fit and healthy, that was no stupid kid. it was the Lord. It Was the Lord! That WAS the LORD!

He's done even cooler things for me too but not with the same price tag, that was pretty big in my mind!

I don't even know the Angels name or anything. I'd like to shake his hand one day and meet him again, and Praise the Lord.

 

[Wrangler]

If one guy says a passage means X and you believe it to mean Y, then someone is lacking in spiritual discernment for sure.

Hmmm. I subscribe to Hebrews 4:12, the Word of God is alive. Did you ever read Confessions by St. Augustine? It delves into this point very eloquently.

Consider Jesus simple command, “Follow me.” Objectively, it is a simple thing to be led. However, one can discern it means quite a bit more than merely literally following in the foot steps of another.