Did ANYONE In Scripture (Including Jesus), Claim Jesus IS God?

[MA2444]

Subordinating your lesser understanding to one with great understanding is logical.

Hey! Spock made a joke! If you take it to mean my lesser understanding of spiritual matters as compared to my soul of worldy knowledge. So there's sort of a pun there.

But you could have (and probably did) mean subordinating my lesser being to the Almighty Truth which would be logical thing to do! You see, as you grow in spirit and in truth your soul gets to witness all these truths for himself and I can't decide if the Soul starts falling into line with the spirit's wishes or merely that our spirit is growing stronger and soon outclasses the soul in strength? Either way, good deal! How could anyone in their right mind, refuse a relationship with the Lord of Creation?! That's idiocy.

 

[Wrangler]

How do you tell the difference between a wrong, invalid claim and a claim that is incomprehensible to the natural man?

What if someone says, "The moon is made of green cheese, and if you don't accept it, you lack spiritual discernment?" Is that fair?

Another Strawman in the OP question is to falsely equate random claims to an authoritative reference.

In any book, we might know what the characters say and even think. This is not authoritative. The narrative is what is authoritative.

No where in the narrative of God’s word does the author claim Jesus is God. Recording what fallible people say is not authoritative.

For instance, consider the schizophrenia Trinitarians must embrace in relying on Jewish religious leaders who say Jesus is claiming to be God. If we take them as the authoritative reference, we must accept their later determination that Jesus was NOT the son of God and was rightfully crucified for blasphemy.

Thomas’ exclamation is, likewise, not authoritative. He said as an exclamation, my lord and my God. Emphasis on his personal determination. He did not even claim that Jesus is God but that shows the lengths trinitarians must go to to manufacture ‘support.’ One must ask themselves If Thomas was making a universal statement, why was it not confirmed in the narrative, such as John 20:31?

The only conclusion is the narrative is the authoritative reference and never is Jesus called God. Most importantly, Jesus himself, never calls himself God.

Trinitarians never give up there IDOL. They claim he did not rebuke such claims. 1st, does he have to? 2nd, he did rebuke every time!

 

[Nancy]

I already answered that, the child that IS. Born at the time of Isaiah’s writing 500BC.

Just because this child is not named in Scripture does not mean it must be Jesus - who is also not named in Isaiah.

"And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

So, you are saying that there is yet more than ONE Mighty God and EVERLASTING FATHER?
Really, who else can this magnificent figure be??

 

[Wrangler]

So, you are saying that there is yet more than ONE Mighty God and EVERLASTING FATHER?
Really, who else can this magnificent figure be??

I already answered your question many times. An Appeal to Ignorance does not help your cause.

In the Cultural Bible NSRV, it points out that common hyperbolic tropes now associated exclusively with Jesus were not the case in ancient times. For instance, ‘lord of lords and kings of kings’ referred to many kings of the near East, including the Persian Xerxes.

 

[Taken]

Nonsense! Nothing from the Spirit of God demands we abdicate logic. Nothing.

The carnal mind and ciphering with LOGIC IS beneficial For humans “IN and “OF”, this World.

The Carnal mind, trying to Logically Cipher Understanding of
……SPIRITUAL THINGS…IS A FAIL!……

Did you not grasp the Difference?

1Cor 2:
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

If you take it to mean my lesser understanding of spiritual matters as compared to my soul of worldy knowledge. So there's sort of a pun there.

But you could have (and probably did) mean subordinating my lesser being to the Almighty Truth which would be logical thing to do!

I meant a simple and general truth. There have been times in my life when I tried to help students understand the answer to a difficult math problem. While I too was a student, I got the answer correct and they either got it wrong or could not find any solution.

There were times when they argued with my (correct) approach.

I resorted to asking them if they wanted to understand how I got the right answer or argue about how to get the right answer is wrong? Most of the time, they’d humble themselves and listen. However, there were times they’d storm off, convinced they were right and the answer - provided by the authoritative reference, the text book answer key at the back of the book - was wrong.

These were the students who didn’t graduate.

I suspect this ego based problem, this opposition to being disciplined, spurring this opportunity to demonstrate humility presents itself in more than just a college setting. Don’t you?

 

[Nancy]

I already answered your question many times. An Appeal to Ignorance does not help your cause.

In the Cultural Bible NSRV, it points out that common hyperbolic tropes now associated exclusively with Jesus were not the case in ancient times. For instance, ‘lord of lords and kings of kings’ referred to many kings of the near East, including the Persian Xerxes.

I hardly think that the words Everlasting Father belonged to some unknown person, king or not. There is NO other than Christ/God Almighty that can fit this, not some overexaggerating or figure of speech. It is clear to me and many others.
I can see that this is going nowhere, I will pull out as I'm not interested in the arguments and back and forth posts that just keeps arguments going.
God be with you.

 

[Wrangler]

The carnal mind and ciphering with LOGIC IS beneficial For humans “IN and “OF”, this World.

Logic being valid is not limited to carnal minds of this world.

 

[Wrangler]

I hardly think that the words Everlasting Father belonged to some unknown person, king or not.

Yet, Jesus has never been called the everlasting father. So, how do you square that?

 

[Taken]

How do you tell the difference between a wrong, invalid claim and a claim that is incomprehensible to the natural man?

What if someone says, "The moon is made of green cheese, and if you don't accept it, you lack spiritual discernment?" Is that fair?

The Point of Having available The written Word of God…is reliance On His Word for Verification for what you hear.

Is the Moons Makeup Material even an Issue that requires your consideration to wonder or believe someone with no firsthand knowledge?

It Is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with Spiritual Belief in God.

Glory To God,
Taken

 

[Nancy]

Yet, Jesus has never been called the everlasting father. So, how do you square that?

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6, ESV).

Revelation 1:8
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

This statement of eternality could apply only to God.
Byeee

 

[Taken]

Logic being valid is not limited to carnal minds of this world.

So what’s your Point?

It is Mindfully Logical to You To Believe IN…
And Invisible God, you can neither…
See, Hear, Smell, taste, Touch, Feel?

 

[MA2444]

How do you tell the difference between a wrong, invalid claim and a claim that is incomprehensible to the natural man?

What if someone says, "The moon is made of green cheese, and if you don't accept it, you lack spiritual discernment?" Is that fair?

I think that's a fair statement. Because if it were truth, and you didn't believe it, it would be a lack of spiritual discernment, a lack of the truth in you.

How do you tell the difference between a wrong, invalid claim and a claim that is incomprehensible to the natural man?

That's a good question. The Lord has within us many ways to talk to us. Ask 1000 different people and you'll get 1000 different answers!

I can only tell you how He has talked to me and encouraged my faith. And that's sort of a deep answer because of the different ways He has used to speak to me. I have prayed so long and so much for Wisdom & Understanding and spiritual discernment that it almost seems redundant to any more, lol. But still I ask.

One way was, I was watching a teaching video on youtube, or maybe it was a testimony video? And it was a great Testimony (if it was real and true)! And I remember wondering if that was really true what I was watching? And I phrased it in my mind like it was a question to God, Lord is this true?! And He answered immediately in Spirit. Not with words, but something happened to me inside of me and I felt this...I don't know what it was but it felt good and put my spirit at peace. It was like, He pinged my spirit like submarines pinging each other. I didn't know what it was, I was a young Christian! So I called it, He "pinged" my spirit, and He let me now that what I was watching was true.
But over time, I think I have it figured it out and what He did was to quicken my spirit. That must be what He did to answer me. And ever since then, He still does it sometimes with other videos too but not with all videos.

I have been watching a movie before, and he touches my spirit and brings me to tears at spots to try to teach me about compassion and love. I never creied to a movie in my life (until the Lord!) I was the guy who always always was cracking jokes during chick flick night with the wife when she would cry at some part of the movie. WHo cries? Men don't cry! The first movie that was ever to bring me to tears was the first time I watched Passion of the Christ. He hit me hard with that movie and the only thing He seemed to say was, it was actually worse than that for me but it is the best depiction of Him so far and that they captured His Character very well! Wow.

I think being led by he Spirit is talking to Him so much that we become sensitive to His presence within us. (The Friend, who sticks closer than a Brother!) I ca feel His presence within me. But can feel Him is sort of misleading because it isn't an emotional response or of the flesh, but it is a perceiving within us nonetheless.

And what do we do with our best friend with us? Well, you can't ignore Him so you talk to Him. And eventually I started becoming able to here His still small voice! That one's too long for this post, lol. But what do you think that did my prayer life?! Brother, I wanted to talk to Him all the time! Even about trivial stuff! The Lord loves small talk, but not all the time.

 

[Taken]

Yet, Jesus has never been called the everlasting father. So, how do you square that?

Be Patient….

Prophecy is Revealed….(the Foretelling of who, what, when, where, why)

Trust the Prophecy…(your individual FREEWILL option)

Be Patient For the Prophecy to manifest (Come to pass).

Read, Study the History….of
*WHO revealed Ancient Prophecy
*DID it manifest (Come to pass)?

Does THAT MAKE “YOU” Trusting of The ONE “WHO” …
Gave AND FULFILLED ancient/historical/accomplished Prophecy?….
Or Not? …your Option to Trust, Believe, Prophecy…Revealed…but Not Yet Fulfilled….
SHALL BE Fullfilled….DONE!

Your own words seemingly imply A teetering DOUBT.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[MA2444]

I meant a simple and general truth. There have been times in my life when I tried to help students understand the answer to a difficult math problem. While I too was a student, I got the answer correct and they either got it wrong or could not find any solution.

There were times when they argued with my (correct) approach.

Well, the Lord wants us to learn how to think and reason and stand on our own two feet, within the Lord. So He encourages us to this end all the time, and we are guaranteed not to understand everything so therein we must trust Him and walk in Faith! Do you think Abraham understood where he was going and why? Not a clue. But he trusted God and so it was reckoned as faith to him. The Lord fixed a furnace for me one time that had a short in the wiring somewhere and I couldn't find it! I left one last fuse in place but didn't turn on the power. I had been there 5 hours testing every single conponant and wire on the unit, and I couldn't find it and was running out of fuses fast! I gave up, I was packing up my tools wondering what I was going to tell the guy. I also prayed about it and asked for the Lord's help. And before I knew it the Customer was there in front of me reaching for the unit to turn on the power as he says, got it working yet? And it fired right up real smooth, no blown fuses! I knew what it was the Lord so went with the flow, lol. But honestly? I don't know where the short was. It escaped me and I had given up. I still don't know to this day what the problem was! So He didn't answer that but just made it work, lol.

Trust. Faith.
I remember my wife used to stand there and argue with me bout some stpid thing that I know about and am versed in, I knew the truth and she was wrong. And in the womanly way of I aint never wrong she would poilitely explain to me why she was right and I was wrong. And I knew better!

I resorted to asking them if they wanted to understand how I got the right answer or argue about how to get the right answer is wrong? Most of the time, they’d humble themselves and listen. However, there were times they’d storm off, convinced they were right and the answer - provided by the authoritative reference, the text book answer key at the back of the book - was wrong.

These were the students who didn’t graduate.

I suspect this ego based problem, this opposition to being disciplined, spurring this opportunity to demonstrate humility presents itself in more than just a college setting. Don’t you?

I think that's mostly a woman thing, even though much feminine thinking has got into the gen Z'ers head also in many cases.

Me? I'm a slow learner, lol. All mankind are slow learners. I used to think that I was the smart kid out of us four, whoo, I got a 136 IQ! Wow, must be smart! I remember when I was at the age that I knew everything. I shook it off before I went into the trades.

My Dad gave me some real good advice. You don't need to lie to get a job. You don't need to steal to get ahead. So I didn't. I didn't exaggerate my skills to get a job. Tat's counter-productive. Can you fix roof top units? Uh no but I'm willing to learn, but you need to hire an RTU fuy! They did, and sent us right out to fix a rtu. The guy asked me what I thought it was that was wrong! He didn't know even how to start. yeah I can RTU's, no sweat! I'm not sure if he lasted the whole week.

Another guy in the shop took something out of a customers house when he was there working, a watch or something like that. They wanted the watch or $200 when they called the shop. He lost his $800 a week job for a couple hundred bucks, lol. Yeah, he's getting ahead, huh?! Lol. I thought it before. Once I found a $10 bill underneath the HWH I was changing, it was all dusty and clearly had been there a long time. nobody would miss this $10 bucks! Then my sanity kicked in and I thought, it prolly is a plant, I wonder where the cameras are?! I don't want to be featured on 20/20 lol. So I gave it to the Customer like I should have and felt good about it!

 

[christsavedme]

Certainly, Jesus is acknowledged as the Word of God and is referred to as the Lord. Thomas, often known as Doubting Thomas, touched the holes in Yeshuas hand which the nails had went through and the side of the Lord Jesus, thereby recognizing His divinity. In the same chapter, Jesus speaks to Martha after His resurrection, and it is during the time which he would now become known and He is referred to as the Begotten Son of God, saying, "Jesus said to her, ‘Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’" I find nothing wrong with Thomas's statement; he is simply acknowledging the resurrected Yeshua as divine. We have to consider, Thomas was someone who doubted. There are many people that doubt even so today, however when it comes to truth, Jesus was the Lord, and the Word of God, known as "God with us," Emmanuel. We can also consider what Paul stated to the people in Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 8:6 But for us, There is one God, the Father, by whom all things were created, and for whom we live. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created, and through whom we live.

I do not subscribe to the concepts of God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. However, I do accept the ideas of God, the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit of God. This may be where my perspective differs from that of many others; ultimately, what is most important is that our connection is with the Father and the Son. The beliefs people hold do not make them any more right with God than the next devoted individual who has undergone a transformation in their understanding of the Father and the Son, acknowledging them in Spirit and in truth. 1 John 1:3 states, "We proclaim to you what we ourselves have actually seen and heard so that you may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ." Today, I believe that Yahavah and his Son (now known as the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY) are united once more , as they were in the beginning. I have conducted a study in the bible study section regarding "Who is the Word of God, the Word of Life."

All the best!

I find this perspective fascinating. Although I respect your personal journey, there are some historical points worth noting. The interpretation presented here diverges significantly from both early Christian understanding and documented Church history.

Your rejection of the Trinity while accepting Jesus' divinity creates an interesting theological tension. Historically this exact debate was actually settled at the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE, where the Church formally addressed similar interpretations.

What's psychologically interesting is how you process cognitive dissonance - accepting Jesus' divinity while rejecting the concept of "God the Son." This reminds me of various syncretistic beliefs I've studied where people merge different theological concepts to create personally meaningful frameworks.

The reference to Thomas's doubt is particularly relevant to my psychological work. It's a classic example of how direct experience can transform skepticism into belief - something we still see in modern conversion narratives.

Just my two cents. I think understanding these historical contexts helps us better appreciate why these theological questions were so important to early Christians and why they continue to resonate today.

Thoughts?

 

[MatthewG]

I find this perspective fascinating. Although I respect your personal journey, there are some historical points worth noting. The interpretation presented here diverges significantly from both early Christian understanding and documented Church history.

Your rejection of the Trinity while accepting Jesus' divinity creates an interesting theological tension. Historically this exact debate was actually settled at the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE, where the Church formally addressed similar interpretations.

What's psychologically interesting is how you process cognitive dissonance - accepting Jesus' divinity while rejecting the concept of "God the Son." This reminds me of various syncretistic beliefs I've studied where people merge different theological concepts to create personally meaningful frameworks.

The reference to Thomas's doubt is particularly relevant to my psychological work. It's a classic example of how direct experience can transform skepticism into belief - something we still see in modern conversion narratives.

Just my two cents. I think understanding these historical contexts helps us better appreciate why these theological questions were so important to early Christians and why they continue to resonate today.

Thoughts?

Hello @christsavedme,

It was from the help of a teacher, that use to believe in the trinity but then rejected it himself (founder of a school www.cult.love - Cult = Christian Ultra-Libertarians for Truth; a play on words no doubt (Cult)). Anyway, while I do find historical evidences presented in and from the bible concluding the age that they had lived in (good). The early church fathers and all that, do not have any effect on personal decisions. I find your assessment quite engaging and thoughtful as it's something that is rare. In the case of DT (Doubting Thomas), I believe he recognized Jesus for who he really was "The Word of God" and this is the reason why I accept what John states in John 1:1-3, as without the Word of God which is an expression of Yahavah's heart nothing would have been created. And therefore there lies a difference between God, and God's Word. They are the same, however they are different in one is God, and one is God's word. This is why, in Revelation, the One whom is sitting on the throne to me, is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, this "transfiguration on the mountain" became true, which only three of the chosen disciples had witnessed and where told not to speak about until he had resurrected. This is why Johns Gospel, but not only his, all of them are interesting, is written like it is, he is writing after the resurrection, you also have his first letter, which he expresses his and the apostles that had came with him, handled the "Word of life" speaking of the resurrected Lord Yeshua, whom was raised by the Holy Spirit of God. Touching back on those creeds and stuff. They do not mean anything. Least to me personally, because who cares... what they may have said, it doesn't make them always right... as though they need to be honored for doing what they did. They are just men. Whom truly needs to be honors is Yahavah, the one whom Jesus taught about as being his God, and Mary's God. Our Father whom adopts us into the kingdom of his Son (though the Kingdom of his Father whom is above his Son - if Jesus is giving all authority and all things back to his Father and his subjected to him, there seems to be positioning in place), translated from darkness to light.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @christsavedme,

It was from the help of a teacher, that use to believe in the trinity but then rejected it himself (founder of a school www.cult.love - Cult = Christian Ultra-Libertarians for Truth; a play on words no doubt (Cult)). Anyway, while I do find historical evidences presented in and from the bible concluding the age that they had lived in (good). The early church fathers and all that, do not have any effect on personal decisions. I find your assessment quite engaging and thoughtful as it's something that is rare. In the case of DT (Doubting Thomas), I believe he recognized Jesus for who he really was "The Word of God" and this is the reason why I accept what John states in John 1:1-3, as without the Word of God which is an expression of Yahavah's heart nothing would have been created. And therefore there lies a difference between God, and God's Word. They are the same, however they are different in one is God, and one is God's word. This is why, in Revelation, the One whom is sitting on the throne to me, is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, this "transfiguration on the mountain" became true, which only three of the chosen disciples had witnessed and where told not to speak about until he had resurrected. This is why Johns Gospel, but not only his, all of them are interesting, is written like it is, he is writing after the resurrection, you also have his first letter, which he expresses his and the apostles that had came with him, handled the "Word of life" speaking of the resurrected Lord Yeshua, whom was raised by the Holy Spirit of God. Touching back on those creeds and stuff. They do not mean anything. Least to me personally, because who cares... what they may have said, it doesn't make them always right... as though they need to be honored for doing what they did. They are just men. Whom truly needs to be honors is Yahavah, the one whom Jesus taught about as being his God, and Mary's God. Our Father whom adopts us into the kingdom of his Son (though the Kingdom of his Father whom is above his Son - if Jesus is giving all authority and all things back to his Father and his subjected to him, there seems to be positioning in place), translated from darkness to light.

For what it is worth, I think it's interesting that Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, and also to pray ending the Lord Jesus when we do pray. He didn't teach us to pray to himself. And for my last two cents I believe people honor people more than they do the Living God sometimes. And no one should ever believe anyone, even myself, they should read the bible and see what it says, and read it for what it contains and explore these things for themselves. I might not even be right, but everything I do is now subjective. It's my own decision to choose how I see these things, and not for other people to dictate how I should see things. This is pretty much how my teacher taught me, while he is just a man, he did help me by the spirit of Christ through him, and in thanks to the Father, in the name of Jesus do I give them credit for helping me reach liberty and not be so subjective to peoples and what they deem is correct or the correct method about going in this life in faith to the one whom has helped me in my life, though sometimes I feel as though I do not do a single thing that is truly worth while. I continue to believe and hope in the Lord Yeshua, and that one day after this life, he will be the one that gets me into the Kingdom. Not what everyone else thinks or may believe. They subject themselves to those things, and it's personal. Everything that we do is personal, unless we are being controlled by a majority group, that would mean bondage to men in my own thoughts and ways of thinking.

 

[Wrangler]

So what’s your Point?

My point is logic works. Contradictions do not exist in reality. Either Jesus is a man as the Bible explicitly teaches repeatedly or the Bible is wrong.

If the Bible is wrong, there is still no reason to suppose Jesus is God incarnate.

 

[MA2444]

I can only tell you how He has talked to me and encouraged my faith. And that's sort of a deep answer because of the different ways He has used to speak to me. I have prayed so long and so much for Wisdom & Understanding and spiritual discernment that it almost seems redundant to any more, lol. But still I ask.

One time after I had learned to hear the still small voice of the Lord, I asked Him to please grant me more discernment...and His answer bewildered me sorts, I'm still chewing on it, lol. He said practice discernment by looking for Him within other people...

Do you get that? I'm not sure I do yet!