To the only God our Savior

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Matthias

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I’m finishing the year reading the book of Revelation.

”This is the revelation of Jesus Messiah, which God gave him …”

(Revelation 1:1, ISV)

To a Jewish monotheist, “God” is Yahweh, the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah.
 

Scott Downey

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They are connected in Spirit. In Jewish monotheism the Spirit isn’t a third person who is God. The Spirit is God’s operational presence and power; personal, but not another person.
Of course God's Spirit is all powerful, but it is ALSO a He, not impersonal.
Christ calls Him the Spirit another comforter-helper for when He goes away.

15 “If you love Me, [a]keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [b]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
 

Matthias

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That is because Christ humbled Himself and was born as a man, but prior to that He had His own glory.
He made Himself of no reputation.

The glory which he had with his God before he was begotten by his God was glory in prospect.


Philippians 1, God became a man

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it [b]robbery to be equal with God, 7 but [c]made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 17
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

And
Matthew 25:31
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
 

Matthias

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Of course God's Spirit is all powerful, but it is ALSO a He, not impersonal.
Christ calls Him the Spirit another comforter-helper for when He goes away.

Your spirit is you. If I were to say “Scott’s spirit told me …” it was would the same as me telling some “He, Scott, told me …”

Your spirit is personal, but it isn’t another person who is you.

15 “If you love Me, [a]keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [b]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Jesus later identifies himself as the comforter. Right?
 

Ritajanice

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Your spirit is personal, but it isn’t another person who is you.
His spirit is Born Again, so no, it’s not personal....he belongs to the Spirit Of God, he was bought for a price.

His spirit is in Christ?..how else can he be a partaker Of the divine nature?
 

Matthias

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By "in prospect" do you mean anticipatory and not then extant?

Yes. He was praying to receive the glory that was stored up for him with God. What he didn’t have at the time of his prayer, he has now.

Yahweh doesn’t share his glory with anyone. The Messiah shares his glory with all of his disciples.

As a disciple of the Messiah, I have the glory that the Messiah asked God for in the 1st century, but I only have it in prospect at this time. I haven’t been glorified yet. I will be when the Messiah returns.
 
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APAK

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Of course God's Spirit is all powerful, but it is ALSO a He, not impersonal.
Christ calls Him the Spirit another comforter-helper for when He goes away.

15 “If you love Me, [a]keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [b]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
More precisely, the so-called comforter/helper is the spirit of truth, just one of many, many spirits under the umbrella of the Spirit of God. So in a general sense it still is the Spirit of God that dwells within, and it is personified as an 'he' representing its source, the Father, who is God.
 
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Matthias

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His spirit is Born Again, so no, it’s not personal....he belongs to the Spirit Of God, he was bought for a price.

His spirit is in Christ?..how else can he be a partaker Of the divine nature?

Jesus is filled with his Father’s Spirit. His disciples are also to be filled with our Father’s Spirit.
 

Ritajanice

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Jesus is filled with his Father’s Spirit. His disciples are also to be filled with our Father’s Spirit.
We are Born Of the Spirit just as His word says, we are not filled with our Fathers Spirit, we are in Christ, our spirit has been birthed, not filled.

We are regenerated, Spirit gives birth to spirit.

God permanently indwell my spirit, who is his Holy Spirit ,who is part of God Spirit...he does not fill my spirit, that makes no sense to my spirit.


I believe Gods Spirit was entwined with Jesus Spirit, after all he was God’s Son, in Spirit..

God, Jesus, Holy Spirit are all joined in Spirit.....they are of God..Holy, pure, and perfect...I didn’t say that they were God, but, they are 100% part of His Spirit.
 
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Matthias

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More precisely, the so-called comforter/helper is the spirit of truth, just one of many, many spirits under the umbrella of the Spirit of God. So in a general sense it still is the Spirit of God that dwells within, and it is personified as an 'he' representing its source, the Father, who is God.

Well said. I pair this with John 6:63 - his words are spirit and life.
 

Matthias

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While we’re on the subject of the Spirit, it is important to note that the Nicene Creed (AD 325) didn’t define who or what the Spirit is.

As late as AD 380, Gregory of Nazianzus (another important figure in trinitarian history, which few Protestants at this level know or care anything about) tells us that the wise men among the Church were divided on the question. That is why the Nicene Creed was modified in AD 381 at the Council of Constantinople.

The history of the doctrine of the Trinity is, as Fortman said, “amazing”.

Be amazed, trinitarians. Read Church history.

Be amazed, non-trinitarians. Read Church history.

P.S.

I’ve posted the quote from Gregory of Nazianzus many times, and in many threads, on the forum. I’ll post it again in this thread if anyone requests it. Every trinitarian should read it, and I recommend that non-trinitarians interested in learning about the history of the doctrine of the Trinity read it too.
 
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RedFan

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Yes. He was praying to receive the glory that was stored up for him with God. What he didn’t have at the time of his prayer, he has now.

Yahweh doesn’t share his glory with anyone. The Messiah shares his glory with all of his disciples.

As a disciple of the Messiah, I have the glory that the Messiah asked God for in the 1st century, but I only have it in prospect at this time. I haven’t been glorified yet. I will be when the Messiah returns.
Wouldn't John have used the imperfect subjunctive rather than the imperfect indicative in John 17:5 if the glory Jesus referenced were prospective only.
 

Matthias

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Wouldn't John have used the imperfect subjunctive rather than the imperfect indicative in John 17:5 if the glory Jesus referenced were prospective only.

No. Elsewhere I’ve quoted Professor H.H. Wendt on the subject of glory in prospect contained in scripture. Have you seen it? If you have, what did you find unpersuasive about it? If you haven’t, I’ll repost it for your consideration if you would like for me to.

Do you believe Jesus was and still is a Jewish monotheist?
 

RedFan

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No. Elsewhere I’ve quoted Professor H.H. Wendt on the subject of glory in prospect contained in scripture. Have you seen it? If you have, what did you find unpersuasive about it? If you haven’t, I’ll repost it for your consideration if you would like for me to.
I would appreciate the repost, as I haven't seen it. But my concern right now is Greek grammar.
 
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Scott Downey

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Here is more confirmation, regarding the creation and God's nature

Isaiah 44

There Is No Other God​

6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

7 And who can proclaim as I do?
Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me,
Since I appointed the ancient people.
And the things that are coming and shall come,
Let them show these to them.
8 Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”



24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens [c]all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;


We have First and Last as pertaining to God, and how He is the Rock, and God who makes all things by Himself

All those things are also shown in scriptures as Christ who says He is the First and Last, the Rock that followed Israel in the wilderness and the Rock was Christ, and for by Him all things were made in heaven and earth for Him, through Him, and in Him all things are.

Rev 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, [g]“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches [h]which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying [i]to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

1 Cor 10

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

1 Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or [f]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
 

Scott Downey

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Now the above, written by one of the prophets was spoken to them by the Spirit of Christ as are all the OT scriptures.
For it is they who speak to you of Christ and His grace that would come.

1 Peter 1
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to [a]us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.
 

Matthias

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I would appreciate the repost, as I haven't seen it. But my concern right now is Greek grammar.

“It rests on a misconception of the New Testament mode of speech and conception if we immediately infer that the declaration of Jesus [in John 17:5], that he had glory with the Father before the world was created is simply and necessarily identical in meaning with the thought that he himself preexisted. … According to the mode of speech and conception prevalent in the New Testament, a heavenly good, and so also a heavenly glory, can be conceived and spoken of as existing with God and belonging to a person, not because the person already exists and is invested with glory, but because the glory of God is in some way deposited and preserved for this person in heaven. We remember how, according to the report of Matthew, Jesus also speaks of the treasure (Matt. 5:34); and how also (Col. 1:5 and 1 Pet, 1:4) the hope of salvation of the Christian is represented as a blessing laid up in heaven for them. … Jesus asks for himself not something arbitrary, but what was given to him according to God’s decree and what had always ideally belonged to him. …; the presupposition for this declaration, however, is certainly the thought, which finds decided expression at the close of the prayer in verse 24, that Jesus himself, as the Messiah, did not indeed really exist from the beginning with God, but was the object of the love of God, of His loving thoughts, plans and purposes.”

(H.H. Wendt, The Teaching of Jesus, Vol 2, pp. 169-172)

Brackets are mine.

This is a description of how a Jewish monotheist reads and understands scripture. John, like Jesus, is a Jewish monotheist.

I’ve mentioned to others that trinitarianism (binitarianism and some forms of unitarianism) stand on the literal preexistence of the Son of God. In Jewish monotheism (which is unitarian) it doesn’t; it stands on ideal preexistence - that persons, in this case the Messiah, preexisted in the mind and foreknowledge of God before the person was brought into existense.

In Luke 1:35, the angel tells Mary that the reason the child would be called the Son is God is causal. “For this reason” - the begetting of Jesus by the overshadowing of the Father’s Spirit (the Father’s operational presence and power, personal, but not another person) and the conception of Jesus in the womb of the virgin - is the reason Jesus is called the Son of God.

That isn’t the reason Jesus is called the Son of God in trinitarian theology (nor in binitarian theology, nor some forms of unitarian theology.)

The genesis of Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of God, is in time and place and not, as a child might say, in outer space.
 
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Matthias

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There is no God besides Yahweh @Scott Downey. Yahweh is the Messiah’s God. Yahweh is the Messiah’s Father.


“Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh.” The trinitarian scholar who makes this assertion says it because he is speaking from the constraints of history.

Trinitarianism isn’t bound by the constraints of history. Jewish monotheism is.

We have to remember this when speaking with a Jewish monotheist who believes that a fellow Jewish monotheist (in my case, Jesus of Nazareth) is our God’s Messiah and Son.

This is why I ask people if they believe Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist. The historical Jesus is.
 
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Scott Downey

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There is no God besides Yahweh @Scott Downey. Yahweh is the Messiah’s God. Yahweh is the Messiah’s Father.


“Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh.” The trinitarian scholar who makes this assertion says it because he is speaking from the constraints of history.

Trinitarianism isn’t bound by the constraints of history. Jewish monotheism is.

We have to remember this when speaking with a Jewish monotheist who believes that a fellow Jewish monotheist (in my case, Jesus of Nazareth) is our God’s Messiah and Son.

This is why I ask people if they believe Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist. The historical Jesus is.
Well, seeing I am believing in a Triune God, then of course, I understand the Father is not the Son and Son is not the Father, yet if you have seen Christ, you have seen the Father.

I also understand the Father is in Christ, and Christ is in the Father, just as Christ so says about Himself. And all the verses I believe, it is just that some of you do not believe.

John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

John 14:11
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Some of you guys think Jesus just a man having no pre-existence, is that you too?