It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[rebuilder 454]

Ooops wrong thread

 

[WPM]

You just might be surprised.
But at least, I am a fellow Christian and what I believe my task is; to promote the Prophetic Word as it is Written in a modern, accredited translation.
This often results in people making vehement objections, as the true understanding of scripture often conflicts with their well entrenched beliefs. Either that, or my posts are simply ignored, as being incomprehensible to those locked into fables and false teachings.

For example; your favourite doctrine of AMillenniumism, simply does not conform to what Revelation 20 actually does say and messes up Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind.

Where in the Bible teaches "Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind"? You seem to make it up as you go.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Where in the Bible teaches "Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind"? You seem to make it up as you go.

And making claims that Revelation 16:8-9 is about the sun going to literally scorch the Earth without spiritual understanding what the Lord is talking about here. Yeah his are nothing but fables and false interpretations.

 

[Keraz]

Where in the Bible teaches "Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind"? You seem to make it up as you go.

I have proved the 7000 year Plan of God several times here and elsewhere. People like you are locked into your delusions and will only realize these Bible truths, as they take place.

And making claims that Revelation 16:8-9 is about the sun going to literally scorch the Earth without spiritual understanding what the Lord is talking about here. Yeah his are nothing but fables and false interpretations.

Rev 16:8 The Fourth Angel poured out his Bowl upon the sun......
A literal sun, with literal effects. Why must you spiritualize it?

 

[WPM]

And making claims that Revelation 16:8-9 is about the sun going to literally scorch the Earth without spiritual understanding what the Lord is talking about here. Yeah his are nothing but fables and false interpretations.

True. This is his pattern. He makes it up as he goes.

 

[WPM]

I have proved the 7000 year Plan of God several times here and elsewhere. People like you are locked into your delusions and will only realize these Bible truths, as they take place.

Rev 16:8 The Fourth Angel poured out his Bowl upon the sun......
A literal sun, with literal effects. Why must you spiritualize it?

You have proved nothing apart from you are an expert at avoidance.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Rev 16:8 The Fourth Angel poured out his Bowl upon the sun......
A literal sun, with literal effects. Why must you spiritualize it?

What you fail to understand is that the plagues are for God's House, the Church. Don't forget that the judgment BEGINS at the House of God, the Church! Not the world, nor the physical spots like sun, air, water. See, the Church instituted God as a BEACON, and the unadulterated Word of God is this LIGHT that was to ever shine in the darkness. The sun represents the Church, the earthly representative of the light of the world, which is Christ. It is a sad fact of the Church that many Christians today are happy to point at the leaders, politicians, unbelievers as to the apostasy in the WORLD, but God points right at them. They have neglected to look in the mirror at their own wilfully voluntarily neglect of the Word of God. This is the "why" and "how"! The "why" of the judgment is because o f their falling away, the forsaking the precepts of God in favor of the precepts of men. The "how" of the judgment is by God recompensing upon their heads exactly what they desire. For they desire the word of men over the Word of God, and thus God send them strong delusion because they had no love for His Truth. They deceitfully handled the Word of God, Wilfully sinning against the crucified Christ, who they claim has died for them.

Revelation 17:1

• "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:"

Babylon, the unfaithful betrothed of God, had judgment poured out upon her "first," while the elect mourned for what she once was. The vials judgment goes upon the wicked in the church "FIRST", and then the wicked outside, who know not God at the Second Coming. Let's not forget, the wicked, such as false prophets and christs and many professed Christians with them, inside God's house claim to be obedient, just as the layers, Priests, Scribes and Pharisees did. When Paul writes when it first begin at "US", he is clearly not speaking of himself personally, but the Church COLLECTIVELY.

Anyway, back to Revelation 16:8. The church represents the light of the world, the Sun, which signifies Christ. Thus plagues poured out upon the SUN are once again representing the Church. Let read the verses again:

Rev 16:8-9
(8) And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
(9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

The messenger pouring out his vial upon the sun is an illustration of judgment upon the church so that the people therein are judged. The same illustration as in Matthew 24 of the sun becoming blood and the moon not giving her light, it's signifying the end of the church, as God judges her for her degradations. It is because she is being judged that these people in her blasphemed the name of God who had power over these plagues on her (spiritually Babylon) so that they would not repent to give God's glory. They have usurped authority from God wherein they trust in themselves, they rule themselves as their own god, to do whatever is right in their own eyes. This is Satan loosed to damn those who are snared in self-justification wherein they simply would not receive the truth of God's word.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12

• "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
• And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
• That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

This is the same principle, which is God's loosing of Satan that His judgment of these plagues upon Babylon is poured out on the unfaithful church that she will never rise again. Revelation 16 speaks of them being scorched with heat from the Sun to signify this is God's judgment and they are overcome of the evil one that "He" has sent. Those faithful who see these abominations and come out of the church in time are those who endured great tribulation and trial to receive eternal life. As is pictured in James chapter 1.

James 1:11-12

• " For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
• Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

The withered grass from the heat of the sun are those who are under God's judgment. But blessed are those that endure trial/temptation because these are those truly in Christ who the heat cannot harm.

Isaiah 49:10

• "They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them."

Which is why God says, come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (Revelation 18:4). The same plagues God says He has power over when He scorched these men with great heat. There is a consistent theme and scenario that runs through this whole episode all throughout scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I vote to give pretrib a decent ressurection.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. - 1 Thessalonians 5:2

How do you think that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports pretrib? It doesn't support pre-trib whatsoever. The day of the Lord will result in the destruction by fire of the heavens and the earth and will not be followed by a 7 year time period of tribulation as pre-tribs imagine.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Why does it say "they shall not escape" when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night? Because no one except those who are in the spiritual light instead of spiritual dark and are made immortal can escape the "sudden destruction" that will occur on that day.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This load of repeatedly repeated bumf, does not in any way preclude the building of a new Temple in Jerusalem. As is definitely and plainly Prophesied.

So, you have no interest in interpreting scripture with scripture. You don't care if you interpret one verse in such a way that contradicts other verses. In other verses when Paul refers to the temple of God it is always in reference to the church, but somehow 2 Thess 2:4 is an exception to that? How could a future physical temple possibly be considered the temple of God? In order to be the temple of God it would have to be a temple that God Himself considers to be His temple. Paul didn't call it the fake temple of God. God would never consider any future physical temple to be His temple. That contradicts scripture. His days of dwelling in man-made temples are over.

Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have been reading these threads.Scripture points to what we call the Trinity and Rapture as mysteries

1. Trinity... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16
2. Rapture - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - 1 Corinthians 15:52

I would think that these topics will remain mysteries while we all are still alive and on planet earth. Even if we come up with an opinion we should be honest and admit that we are not really sure.

I wouldn't want to develop an opinion on these mysteries and condemn the rest of the Christian faith as heretics for not going along with my mindset.

The word rapture refers to us being caught up to meet Christ in the air and does not refer to the changing of our bodies that will occur at that time. The rapture is not a mystery. Also, the mystery referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:52 was revealed by Paul. It was something that was previously a mystery that Paul revealed in that verse. There's no reason to act as if it's still a mystery to us. The mystery was that not everyone would die and that our bodies will all be changed to be made immortal. Is that still a mystery to you now? It shouldn't be. Paul revealed it.

 

[Keraz]

So, you have no interest in interpreting scripture with scripture. You don't care if you interpret one verse in such a way that contradicts other verses. In other verses when Paul refers to the temple of God it is always in reference to the church, but somehow 2 Thess 2:4 is an exception to that? How could a future physical temple possibly be considered the temple of God? In order to be the temple of God it would have to be a temple that God Himself considers to be His temple. Paul didn't call it the fake temple of God. God would never consider any future physical temple to be His temple. That contradicts scripture. His days of dwelling in man-made temples are over.

It is you who fails to see or understand the scriptures which plainly state the building of a new Temple and the re-establishment of the offerings and sacrifices in it. Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 40 to 46, +
Your 'no Temple' belief cannot be right as that makes Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thess 2:4, to be impossible.

 

[Truth7t7]

It is you who fails to see or understand the scriptures which plainly state the building of a new Temple and the re-establishment of the offerings and sacrifices in it. Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 40 to 46, +
Your 'no Temple' belief cannot be right as that makes Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thess 2:4, to be impossible.

Many Claim Ezekiel Chapters 40-46, Represents A Future Temple In A Millennium On Earth, Is This True?​

As clearly shown, Ezekiel Chapter 43 showed the temple "Pattern" to the House of Israel in the Babylonian Captivity let "Them" measure, Ezekiel was instructed to write the ordinances and law in "Their" sight, that "They" keep them, not some future generation as many "Falsely" claim

The temple seen in Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 is nothing more than the 2nd Zerubbabel Temple built 536BC after the Babylonian Captivity, where animal sacrifice for "Sin" was was instructed by "God", prior to the shed blood of Jesus Christ on Calvary, don't be deceived

Ezekiel 43:10-11 & 19-21KJV
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.

 

[covenantee]

It is you who fails to see or understand the scriptures which plainly state the building of a new Temple and the re-establishment of the offerings and sacrifices in it. Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 40 to 46, +
Your 'no Temple' belief cannot be right as that makes Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thess 2:4, to be impossible.

Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled more than 1900 years ago. The OT temple (sanctuary) was destroyed in 70 AD. Daniel 9:26.

Yes, there is a temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Just not your kind of temple.

The NT descriptions of the Temple of God as the believer in Christ, collectively His Church, are Scripture's last and final words defining and clarifying the meaning of the Temple.

The NT Temple of God cannot be overridden and undone by any OT temple.

 

[Keraz]

As clearly shown, Ezekiel Chapter 43 showed the temple "Pattern" to the House of Israel in the Babylonian Captivity

That is a wrong assumption. The Second Temple, Ezra 6:3-5, does not comply with the Third Temple, as Ezekiel 40 to 46, describes.

The temple seen in Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 is nothing more than the 2nd Zerubbabel Temple built 536BC after the Babylonian Captivity, where animal sacrifice for "Sin" was was instructed by "God", prior to the shed blood of Jesus Christ on Calvary, don't be deceived

The NT descriptions of the Temple of God as the believer in Christ, collectively His Church, are Scripture's last and final words defining and clarifying the meaning of the Temple.

You two, seem to have no qualms about denying plain scriptures, such as Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 20:40-31 and other Prophesies which prove there will be a new Temple. Remember; God does not change - we will again make thank offerings and sacrifices for inadvertent sims.

 

[covenantee]

You two, seem to have no qualms about denying plain scriptures, such as Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 20:40-31 and other Prophesies which prove there will be a new Temple. Remember; God does not change - we will again make thank offerings and sacrifices for inadvertent sims.

God has no qualms about transcending His OT temporal temple with a glorious NT edifice, His Church, being built by His Son since His First Coming. Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 2:19-22; Ephesians 5:27; 1 Peter 2:5

Remember that His Son is the mediator of a better covenant established upon better promises through one sacrifice. Hebrews 8:6; Hebrews 9:12,26,28.

That's an unassailable change for the better.

We will make nothing, because He has made it all.

 

[Keraz]

God has no qualms about transcending His OT temporal temple with a glorious NT edifice, His Church, being built by His Son since His First Coming. Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 2:19-22; Ephesians 5:27; 1 Peter 2:5

Remember that His Son is the mediator of a better covenant established upon better promises through one sacrifice. Hebrews 8:6; Hebrews 9:12,26,28.

That's an unassailable change for the better.

We will make nothing, because He has made it all.

Where does scripture say the present Spiritual Temple of the Christian peoples, will be permanent?
We know that will be the case for Eternity, Rev 21:22, but there has to be a suitable building in Jerusalem for King Jesus to Return to and reign from, before then.
Zechariah 6:15 says the Temple will be built by men from far away, which cannot apply to the 1st or 2nd Temples.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God has no qualms about transcending His OT temporal temple with a glorious NT edifice, His Church, being built by His Son since His First Coming. Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 2:19-22; Ephesians 5:27; 1 Peter 2:5

Remember that His Son is the mediator of a better covenant established upon better promises through one sacrifice. Hebrews 8:6; Hebrews 9:12,26,28.

That's an unassailable change for the better.

We will make nothing, because He has made it all.

Agree. Premils like him have no problem with believing that even though Jesus established the better (new) covenant with His shed blood long ago, God will inexplicably make things regress to the inferior (old) covenant again in the future. It's just utter nonsense and a complete insult to the work of Christ on the cross almost 2,000 years ago.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is you who fails to see or understand the scriptures which plainly state the building of a new Temple and the re-establishment of the offerings and sacrifices in it. Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 40 to 46, +
Your 'no Temple' belief cannot be right as that makes Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thess 2:4, to be impossible.

You didn't address what I said in my post at all. I will assume that is because you have no answer for what I said and you will just believe what you want to believe whether you can support it with scripture or not. It's not reasonable whatsoever that 2 Thess 2:4 is talking about a physical temple and I gave evidence to back that up.

Daniel 9:27 relates to the second temple and it was destroyed long ago just as Jesus said it would be when referencing that prophecy (Matthew 24:1-2,15-21). And, if you cared about interpreting scripture with scripture, you would acknowledge that any time Paul referred to the temple of God in other scripture, it was always in relation to either our bodies or to the collective body of Christ (the church). But, you don't care about interpreting 2 Thess 2:4 in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture, so you make it say whatever you want it to say.

 

[WPM]

You didn't address what I said in my post at all. I will assume that is because you have no answer for what I said and you will just believe what you want to believe whether you can support it with scripture or not. It's not reasonable whatsoever that 2 Thess 2:4 is talking about a physical temple and I gave evidence to back that up.

Daniel 9:27 relates to the second temple and it was destroyed long ago just as Jesus said it would be when referencing that prophecy (Matthew 24:1-2,15-21). And, if you cared about interpreting scripture with scripture, you would acknowledge that any time Paul referred to the temple of God in other scripture, it was always in relation to either our bodies or to the collective body of Christ (the church). But, you don't care about interpreting 2 Thess 2:4 in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture, so you make it say whatever you want it to say.

There is no answer to this.

 

[Keraz]

There is no answer to this.

Right…..

Matthew 11:25-26 says how God has closed the minds of the so called 'wise' peoples.
Isaiah 29:9-12 says that those who choose false teachings will become locked into them.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 The coming of this wicked person is the work of Satan, it will be accompanied by all the powerful signs and miracles that falsehood can devise and every sort of evil that deceives those who do not open their minds to the truth. They are doomed to perish, because they refuse to listen to the Gospel of the truth, so God has put them under a compelling delusion; which makes them believe what is false. So all will be judged and condemned who have rejected the truth, but have made sinfulness their choice.

But there is yet time for anyone to reject unbiblical teachings and to clear the mind, enabling the truths of scripture to dawn in your understanding.