Revelation 13 - the sea and the earth beast

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The problem is when you read the "ten horns" or "ten kings", you automatically believe God is talking about literal ten men, ten kings, ten presidents, or ten nations when the Lord actually talked about Satan's power over men. The number 10 signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. In this instance the 10 horns signify Satan's "Power" over men to rule for the fullness of this short period of time near the time of the end of the world. The fullness and rule of this period is also spoken of in Scripture as one hour. Thus these 10 horns rule (as kings) with the beast kingdom one hour. And their crowns again illustrate they reign with him. i.e., crowns are for kings.

Revelation 17:12

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

Again, the horn signifying power. The kings symbolizing their reign which they will have near the end. Horns consistently symbolize power. Therefore the spirit Satan is "given" power as kings (to region) for a little when "he is loosed of God," he uses that time to gather enemies against the Saints. This is near the end and s supported by Revelation Chapter 20.

Of course it all depends upon how we define orthodox or unorthodox doctrine.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I already shared that (The Beast) of the sea is described with first person "Singular" pronouns "He" "His" "Him",

Looking at the verse below it states the number of "A Man" (Singular)

I strongly disagree with your claim it represent (The Body Of Carnality Men)

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

You shared yet the Scripture does not support your private interpretation for the beast as one person. The beast is "not" a man. That is ridiculous.

Rev 13:18 (KJV)
(18) Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man, and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Please note through the TRANSLITERATION in most Bibles might say "number of a man," that is NOT what the Scripture actually says. The original reads the number of man, and no legitimate Bible scholar will deny that since there is NO ARTICLE of "a" in the original manuscripts. Look it up yourself! It a actually reads, "Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast, for it is the number of man." This agrees seamlessly with this imagery of the beast being the kingdom of unsaved man!! Just as those who are servants of God receive the seal, mark or name of God spiritually written on them, those who are servants of Satan receive his mark. We don't read that we have the name of "a" god written upon us, and it shouldn't. It should be the same for it is the number of man, not of "a man." When we read we are the children of God, the text is the same Greek construction. There shouldn't be children of "a" God.
Or again, look to Revelation chapter 12.

Revelation 12:3

• "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

This Dragon is Satan, and note we see the same attributes as the Beast. And again, we see Satan is represented with 7 heads and 10 horns exactly as the beast was. This episode of the Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns in Revelation chapter 12 starts taking place before Christ (the man child) was even born and continues to after his death and resurrection. And so we can say unequivocally we understand that this beast with 7 heads and 10 horns represents the Kingdom of Satan as it exists throughout time and is not 7 individual physical kings on Earth. For example, it represents Satan and his carnal messengers who fight against Christ and His messengers, and that he and his horns and heads have been around since before the first advent of Christ. Our understanding of this has to be based on comparing God's words with God's words and not on man's fancies of individual earthly kingdoms and individual man. As Joseph rhetorically asked, "do not interpretations belong to God?" Indeed they do.

 

[Douggg]

The problem is when you read the "ten horns" or "ten kings", you automatically believe God is talking about literal ten men, ten kings, ten presidents, or ten nations when the Lord actually talked about Satan's power over men. The number 10 signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. In this instance the 10 horns signify Satan's "Power" over men to rule for the fullness of this short period of time near the time of the end of the world. The fullness and rule of this period is also spoken of in Scripture as one hour. Thus these 10 horns rule (as kings) with the beast kingdom one hour. And their crowns again illustrate they reign with him. i.e., crowns are for kings.

Revelation 17:12

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

Again, the horn signifying power. The kings symbolizing their reign which they will have near the end. Horns consistently symbolize power. Therefore the spirit Satan is "given" power as kings (to region) for a little when "he is loosed of God," he uses that time to gather enemies against the Saints. This is near the end and s supported by Revelation Chapter 20.

Of course it all depends upon how we define orthodox or unorthodox doctrine.

Take off your shoes and socks. Count the total number of toes on your feet. Ten.

Daniel 2:
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


Ten kings of one kingdom - the EU.

In Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Look at my chart on the right side. Be watching for Stage 1 on the left side of my chart.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Take off your shoes and socks. Count the total number of toes on your feet. Ten.

Daniel 2:
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

LOL! Before we deal with legs, feet and toes. First, tell me what the iron represents? And the clay? Please note the seed of men. When did Christ establish his kingdom?

 

[Douggg]

LOL! Before we deal with legs, feet and toes. First, tell me what the iron represents? And the clay? Please note the seed of men. When did Christ establish his kingdom?

iron - a metal material of strength
clay - a soil material of weakness (compared to iron)

The disciples in Acts 1:9-11 saw Jesus come into his kingdom as He ascended to heaven. In Daniel 7:13-14, Jesus arrived in heaven to receive His everlasting kingdom.

 

[ewq1938]

I Disagree, John's (The Beast) will be a individual human man as I have shown

You showed ignorance of the Greek language. The only beast that is a person is the false prophet.

 

[Truth7t7]

You shared yet the Scripture does not support your private interpretation for the beast as one person. The beast is "not" a man. That is ridiculous.

I Disagree With your claims, and yes I have provided scripture in support of my claims

 

[TribulationSigns]

I Disagree With your claims, and yes I have provided scripture in support of my claims

No, the Scripture does not support your claims. Again you did not read carefully: Please note through the TRANSLITERATION in most Bibles might say "number of a man," that is NOT what the Scripture actually says. The original reads "the number of man", and no legitimate Bible scholar will deny that since there is NO ARTICLE of "a" in the original manuscripts. Again, the phrase "number of a man" does NOT include the definite article "a" in the Greek text, which means it is the number of man as referring to humanity under Satan's control.

It is the number of the beast.
It is the number of man.

It was the opinion of the translators to add "a" to it because it sounds better but they do not have the wisdom of Christ and lacks spiritual understanding of what Christ talked about the number of man.

So the beast is the spiritual kingdom of all men who are not sealed of God. They are the ones with the number 666.

Only those with the wisdom to understand the single number of the beast and the number of man (not just one man) can grasp its significance. So, how do you count it? Can you? Do you possess the wisdom of Christ to discern how to interpret the number 666? It is not a figure that you can simply add to or multiply. I will wait to see if you have the answer on how to count the number 666.

 

[ewq1938]

The original reads "the number of man", and no legitimate Bible scholar will deny that since there is NO ARTICLE of "a" in the original manuscripts.

That isn't required. It is man in the singular same word in this verse with no article of "a" and this is clearly speaking of a certain man not humanity:

2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

 

[Truth7t7]

You showed ignorance of the Greek language. The only beast that is a person is the false prophet.

We Disagree

 

[Truth7t7]

No, the Scripture does not support your claims. Again you did not read carefully: Please note through the TRANSLITERATION in most Bibles might say "number of a man," that is NOT what the Scripture actually says. The original reads "the number of man", and no legitimate Bible scholar will deny that since there is NO ARTICLE of "a" in the original manuscripts. Again, the phrase "number of a man" does NOT include the definite article "a" in the Greek text, which means it is the number of man as referring to humanity under Satan's control.

It is the number of the beast.
It is the number of man.

It was the opinion of the translators to add "a" to it because it sounds better but they do not have the wisdom of Christ and lacks spiritual understanding of what Christ talked about the number of man.

So the beast is the spiritual kingdom of all men who are not sealed of God. They are the ones with the number 666.

Only those with the wisdom to understand the single number of the beast and the number of man (not just one man) can grasp its significance. So, how do you count it? Can you? Do you possess the wisdom of Christ to discern how to interpret the number 666? It is not a figure that you can simply add to or multiply. I will wait to see if you have the answer on how to count the number 666.

I Disagree, the 54 KJV translators did a fine job, God's word in the English language

"A Man"

 

[A Freeman]

The following excerpt is from the book of Enoch, which explains the beasts of the "sea" and the "earth".

Enoch 58:1-59:9
58:1 Prince Michael the Archangel (Dan. 10:21; ch. 20:5) condemned and then decreed that The Judgement shall fall on CHURCH and STATE (Eze. 13:1-9; Matt. 23; Rev. 17:14; 19:2; Sura 3:64).
59:1 In the five hundredth year, and in the seventh month, on the fourteenth day of the month, of the lifetime of Enoch, in that parable, I saw that the heaven of heavens shook; that it shook violently; and that the powers of the Most High, and the angels, thousands of thousands, and myriads of myriads, were shaken with great shaking. And when I looked, the Ancient of Days was sitting on the Throne of His Glory, while the angels and holy ones were standing around Him. A great trembling came upon me, and terror seized me. My loins were bowed down and loosened; my control was dissolved; and I fell upon my face. Prince Michael, a holy angel, one of the holy ones, was sent and he raised me up.
59:2 And when he raised me, my spirit returned; for I was incapable of enduring this vision of violence, its shaking and the concussion of heaven (Heb. 12:26-29).
59:3 Then holy Michael said to me: Why art thou disturbed at this vision?
59:4 Hitherto has existed the Period of Mercy (6 Millennia); and He has been merciful and long-suffering towards all who dwell upon the Earth (Ps. 86:15; Isa. 42:14; 2 Pet. 3:9).
59:5 But when the time shall come, then shall the power, the punishment, and the Judgement take place, that the Lord of Spirits (The Great White Spirit) has prepared for those who prostrate themselves to The Judgement of Righteousness, for those who dispute that Judgement, and for those who take His name in vain.
59:6 That day has been prepared for the Elect as a day of Covenant; and for sinners as a day of inquisition.
59:7 In that day shall be distributed for food two tigers (redistribution of their wealth); a female tiger (Rev. 17:1), whose name is Levi-athan (CHURCH) dwelling in the depths of the "sea" (Ps. 65:7; Isa 17:12-13), above the springs of "waters" (Rev. 17:15);
59:8 And a male (Rev. 17:2), whose name is Behemoth (STATE) which possesses, moving on his breast, the invisible waste.
59:9 His (Michael's) title was Dendayen (Judge)(John 5:22) in the East of The Garden (Gen. 3:24), where the Elect and the righteous dwell; where he received it from my ancestor, who was man, from Adam the first of men, whom the Lord of Spirits made (1 Cor. 15:45).

 

[A Freeman]

Revelation 13
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon its horns ten crowns, and upon its heads the name of blasphemy.
13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and its feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and its mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave it his power, and his throne, and great authority.
13:3 And I saw one of its heads as it were wounded to death; and its deadly wound was healed*: and all the world wondered after the beast (system).
13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war against it?
13:5 And there was given unto it a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto it to continue forty [and] two months (30 days in a month x 42 = 1260 years; each "day" for a year - Num. 14:34).
13:6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His Tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
13:7 And it was given unto it to make war with the holy people, and to overcome them: and power was given it over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations ("waters" - ch. 17:15).
13:8 And all that dwell upon the Earth shall worship it, whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the holy people.
13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and it had two horns like a lamb, and he (Hitler) spoke as the dragon.
13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the presence of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the Earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by the sword, and did live (the Roman Empire - eagle and swastika emblems).
13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark (Deutsch) in their right hand, or in their foreheads (Marx-ism):
13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of its name.
13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man (created 6th. day); and its number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six (man, man, man).

*Note: the RCC ceased to exist briefly in 1798 when Napoleon sacked Rome and declared there would be no more popes (Rev. 13:3-4: 17:8-10).

Revelation 17:9-10
17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth (Rome).
17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space [since 1798, there have been only 7 papal names: Pius, Leo, Gregory, Benedict, John, Paul, and John Paul].
17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even it is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition [Benedict XVI was the pen-ultimate pope. His replacement, last pope Francis, aka “Peter the Roman”, is the end of the papacy. Please see the prophecy of the 12th century Irish Prophet Malachy].

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 13
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon its horns ten crowns, and upon its heads the name of blasphemy.
13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and its feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and its mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave it his power, and his throne, and great authority.
13:3 And I saw one of its heads as it were wounded to death; and its deadly wound was healed*: and all the world wondered after the beast (system).
13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war against it?
13:5 And there was given unto it a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto it to continue forty [and] two months (30 days in a month x 42 = 1260 years; each "day" for a year - Num. 14:34).
13:6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His Tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
13:7 And it was given unto it to make war with the holy people, and to overcome them: and power was given it over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations ("waters" - ch. 17:15).
13:8 And all that dwell upon the Earth shall worship it, whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the holy people.
13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and it had two horns like a lamb, and he (Hitler) spoke as the dragon.
13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the presence of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the Earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by the sword, and did live (the Roman Empire - eagle and swastika emblems).
13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark (Deutsch) in their right hand, or in their foreheads (Marx-ism):
13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of its name.
13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man (created 6th. day); and its number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six (man, man, man).

*Note: the RCC ceased to exist briefly in 1798 when Napoleon sacked Rome and declared there would be no more popes (Rev. 13:3-4: 17:8-10).

Revelation 17:9-10
17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth (Rome).
17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space [since 1798, there have been only 7 papal names: Pius, Leo, Gregory, Benedict, John, Paul, and John Paul].
17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even it is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition [Benedict XVI was the pen-ultimate pope. His replacement, last pope Francis, aka “Peter the Roman”, is the end of the papacy. Please see the prophecy of the 12th century Irish Prophet Malachy].

Who are the beast and the false prophet in Revelation 19:20 ?

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[A Freeman]

Who are the beast and the false prophet in Revelation 19:20 ?

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Thanks for asking.

The "beast" in context appears to be referring to the "beast system" (the man-made Babylonian market system, etc.) and the "false prophet" appears to be the pope (head of the Babylonian/Roman Catholic church).

The Babylonian market system includes the institutions of church (organized religions) and state (governments), along with the legal system, the chemical-pharmaceutical-medical industry, and the rest of the corporate fictions, that are fleecing the people through made-up rules (legislation, policies, "codes", traditions, etc.), all of which are fraudulent and unlawful.

Revelation 13:3-4
13:3 And I saw one of its heads as it were wounded to death; and its deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast (system).
13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war against it?

It's understood that most people don't think of it in this way, but in God's Law we are expressly prohibited from legislating (Deut. 4:2; 12:8; 12:32) under pain of death (Deut. 17:11-13) because God knew that as soon as we made up our own rules, they would favor the rich and oppress everyone else, and that's exactly what has happened. We have "legalized" theft in the form of taxes. We have "legalized" murder in the form of war. And we have fed this beast system to the extent that we are no longer able to stand up against it, i.e. "make war against it".

 

[Douggg]

The "beast" in context appears to be referring to the "beast system" (the man-made Babylonian market system, etc.) and the "false prophet" appears to be the pope (head of the Babylonian/Roman Catholic church

The sea beast has seven heads and ten horns in Revelation 13:1.

seven heads - seven kings (sequential, 6 historic to us, one yet to come - who becomes the beast-king)

ten horns - ten kings (that rule with the beast for one hour - 42 months)

One of the seven heads (kings) in Revelation 13:3 had been mortally wounded, but healed. That is king seven, who will be killed but comes back to life, as the beast-king.

The beast-king will be a man. His number 666 is the number of a man, Revelation 13:18.

So not a system. Both the beast-king and the false prophet are cast "alive" into the lake of fire, indicating two living men.

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btw, the translation that you copied and pasted reads differently from the kjv I use. The kjv has "him" and not 'it".

Revelation 13:3-4
13:3 And I saw one of its heads as it were wounded to death; and its deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast (system).
13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war against it?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The false prophet - a Pope ?

No, the Popes do not promote the worship of anyone but God and Christ.

The false prophet will promote the worship of the mortally/but healed head (king).

The idea of identifying the beast and false prophet with the RCC and the Pope is just a miss. The building of another temple, and starting animal sacrifices again, that the Antichrist will stop - has a Jewish flavor to it.

Both the beast-king and the false prophet will be Jews. Not tied to Christianity. And will in fact oppose Christian beliefs in Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

The sea beast has seven heads and ten horns in Revelation 13:1.

seven heads - seven kings (sequential, 6 historic to us, one yet to come - who becomes the beast-king)

The 7 heads of the beast are not sequential in Rev 13. All 7 exist at the same time.

 

[Timtofly]

Verse 7:-10 represent a scene in heaven not on the earth. There are 2 separate dream sequence scenes in chapter 7 - as well as 2 separate interpretation sequence scenes. One is in the heavenly realm like 7-10, and then it takes us back to the earthly scene in 7:11.

This is purposeful because God is revealing what takes place in heaven at the same time on earth.

In 7:7-10, it is God who is coming to set up His court for judgement but there is still one person missing- Jesus. On earth, Jesus has gone to the cross and now the 4th beast of pagan Rome has been slain and the little horn has taken power over His church and secular matters.

Later in chapter 7 you will find the exact same presentation which separates the things that take place in the heavenly realm and those on earth. For example, in 7:13-14, God is once again showing us what takes place in heaven. This time, we see the arrival of Jesus to the Ancient of Days and now the judgment can take place.
After this scene, we are taken back to earth but Daniel is terribly confused because he is seeing two very different visions- one in heaven and the other on earth. Then Daniel requests to understand what is going on with this 4th beast (specifically), because the 4 th beast was shown to he slain in 7:11 and who is this 4th beast. This 4th beast is papal Rome who succeeded pagan Rome after 7:11.

Chapter 7 is a very difficult chapter to unpack. If one attempts to interpret its verses in a strictly chronological manner, it will make no sense, because they will have to interpret that everything that comes after 7:11 must be end time events. But God gives us two very different scenes in chapter 7.

The purpose is to reveal that around the same time that Jesus was crucified, the little horn would come to power, and this was around the time He would return to His Father. Thus, these are not end time events in chapter 7.

The key to chapter 7 is verses 7 and 8. Daniel sees the 4th beast with iron teeth- pagan Rome comes after Greece. Then, he sees the 4th beast with 10 horns. Then, another little horn comes out among them. It is at this time in these verses where we find that the cross has taken place.

After the cross, God will send His apostles out to preach the Good News to the Gentiles. This is the beginning of His church. As the church grew exponentially, the Gentiles would come to dominate the church. They would establish a heirarchial structure to run this church similar to pagan Rome. Thus, these bishops of this growing church became very powerful. Within a few hundred years, pagan Rome would come to its end (7:11), and the bishop of Rome would win out over the other bishops as the head of the church. He would become known as the pope or papacy. If you look at verse 20, you will now see that the little horn is no longer “coming out” of the 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome), but is now sitting atop the 4th kingdom , and now he is described as having teeth of iron AND nails of bronze. This represents the revised 4th kingdom of papal Rome who will use the armies or whatever military force is necessary to gain and keep power (pagan Rome is gone). Also, the nails of bronze refer to how they would change God’s laws and commandments, and “snatch away the Word of God” and teach a false gospel.

Or it could have been Constantine, an actual individual from history instead of the office of the pope. Who really cares, as that happened over a thousand years ago?

The point is there was a 5th kingdom, not a 4th kingdom, and then a 4.5 kingdom.

That all was over and dead when the 6th Kingdom happened at the Reformation, in the 15th century.

We are now 500+ years into the head with a deadly wound, which is not an individual, nor the office of the papacy.

It is a 6th world empire that is defunct, having no overall reaching authority.

That is the head with the mortal wound of the sea beast, as the heads are individual world empires, starting with Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar. The sea beast is not a single entity. But the 5 empires of Daniel 2, and the 6th one after the first 5 had fallen.

Revelation 17:10

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come"

7 heads of the dragon are the 7 heads of the sea beast, as well as the 7 heads of the scarlet colored beast. Daniel 2 only covered the first 5.

 

[CTK]

Or it could have been Constantine, an actual individual from history instead of the office of the pope. Who really cares, as that happened over a thousand years ago?

The point is there was a 5th kingdom, not a 4th kingdom, and then a 4.5 kingdom.

That all was over and dead when the 6th Kingdom happened at the Reformation, in the 15th century.

We are now 500+ years into the head with a deadly wound, which is not an individual, nor the office of the papacy.

It is a 6th world empire that is defunct, having no overall reaching authority.

That is the head with the mortal wound of the sea beast, as the heads are individual world empires, starting with Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar. The sea beast is not a single entity. But the 5 empires of Daniel 2, and the 6th one after the first 5 had fallen.

Revelation 17:10

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come"

7 heads of the dragon are the 7 heads of the sea beast, as well as the 7 heads of the scarlet colored beast. Daniel 2 only covered the first 5.

Once again, you are bringing Daniel and Revelation together and you cannot do that... but you still try.... it is a rabbit hole. I have given you the scriptures in Daniel identifying the 4 and only 4 kingdoms... these are not my words, they are God's words ... He specifically calls out 4 kingdoms... don't look to Revelation for the number of kingdoms in Daniel. Now, if you want to walk through Daniel beginning with chapter 2 I am willing to learn your interpretation for the verses and I will give you mine, but there is only one demand - you must not consider Revelation of any book in the NT --- for now.... certainly, there are very important verses is the NT that refer back to Daniel, but they do not tell us what Daniel is revealing... they add to the understanding in Daniel.. This is the only way.... you seem to have developed a strong interpretation for Revelation and brought it back to Daniel and then everything gets mixed up.... It really is not that difficult if you take one book at a time .... otherwise, you will live in a horrible world of "reconcilation" where you need to reconcile the two books and that will never work... God gave us Daniel for a reason - different time, audience, mission, etc. If not, again, there is no reason for us to continue - I do not want to reconcile your interpretations of Daniel based on Revelation and I do not want to reconcile your interpretations of Revelation on what you think Daniel's messages / prophecies are because you and many others claim they speak of the end times (Revelation) ..... God does not think that way... that is a horrible type of circular reasoning that will leave you in a horrible mindset.....

So, we an start in Chatper 2 where God reveals the 4 and only 4 kingdoms - and you can tell me how you get more than 4 --- and again, leave Revelation out of this.... and use Scripture not feeling..... or assumptions...

 

[Timtofly]

Once again, you are bringing Daniel and Revelation together and you cannot do that... but you still try.... it is a rabbit hole. I have given you the scriptures in Daniel identifying the 4 and only 4 kingdoms... these are not my words, they are God's words ... He specifically calls out 4 kingdoms... don't look to Revelation for the number of kingdoms in Daniel. Now, if you want to walk through Daniel beginning with chapter 2 I am willing to learn your interpretation for the verses and I will give you mine, but there is only one demand - you must not consider Revelation of any book in the NT --- for now.... certainly, there are very important verses is the NT that refer back to Daniel, but they do not tell us what Daniel is revealing... they add to the understanding in Daniel.. This is the only way.... you seem to have developed a strong interpretation for Revelation and brought it back to Daniel and then everything gets mixed up.... It really is not that difficult if you take one book at a time .... otherwise, you will live in a horrible world of "reconcilation" where you need to reconcile the two books and that will never work... God gave us Daniel for a reason - different time, audience, mission, etc. If not, again, there is no reason for us to continue - I do not want to reconcile your interpretations of Daniel based on Revelation and I do not want to reconcile your interpretations of Revelation on what you think Daniel's messages / prophecies are because you and many others claim they speak of the end times (Revelation) ..... God does not think that way... that is a horrible type of circular reasoning that will leave you in a horrible mindset.....

So, we an start in Chatper 2 where God reveals the 4 and only 4 kingdoms - and you can tell me how you get more than 4 --- and again, leave Revelation out of this.... and use Scripture not feeling..... or assumptions...

This thread is about Revelation. Why would I not post about that book?

It is your loss, that John saw a clearer picture of the entire history of mankind, than Daniel did. You have to move on from the limited 5th century BC mentality, that only gets you to the first century AD. Telling anyone to forget Revelation and concentrate on Daniel is like telling a Calculus expert to quit their first year of college and go back and study 5th Grade Math.

God's Word can be used to strengthen and define other parts of Scripture. Revelation explains Daniel. Your interpretation of Daniel is just one out of thousands of interpretations out there. Why is yours more special or important than any other one?

I can say that God explicitly stated 5 kingdoms in Daniel 2. But would you even accept that? Saying God explicitly called out 4 does not change that there were 5. You do have to have 4 before you can accept 5. I have just accepted one more than you do, and God never explicitly said 4 in Daniel 2.

For some reason, you never address what I actually post, and you seem to reject any Scripture I give, and then complain when I don't use Scripture at all. Make up your mind. I am not one of those who places Daniel in the future, other than Daniel sees the GWT Judgment, but it is so blurry, one would think it already happened like the Preterist view claims. I already explained that Daniel 2 was all fulfilled by the 15th century, and the church began to fill the earth with missionaries as God explained in the dream given to Nebuchadnezzar, and interpretated by Daniel.

By the 19th century, the church had once again covered the earth like the first century church covered the Roman Empire, and then some. Why bring up the word "reconcile"? I don't see my interpretation as being a reconciliation between two books. We probably agree more than we disagree, but you keep throwing up a "Roman Legion" of excuses to disregard simple facts.

My points are so simple, I guess only a 5th grader would understand, and experts are so far above reality, they have concocted some complicated virtual reality.