The Covenants of Israel

[GodsGrace]

I have a post on this site where I show members the word Rapture in the Bible.

How could that be if the rapture doesn't exist?
A donde' esta??

 

[Timtofly]

In Isaiah 60:20 the sun and moon are not obeying the decree given in Genesis 1:14. If the decree never vanishes from before God, then we have a new heaven new earth where the created objects are disobedient.

What other verses show disobedience in the new heaven new earth?

Why are you fixed on the physical aspects of the sun and moon? They are just angels of ministering light in the firmament.

They will not cease to be. They will just be replaced by God and Jesus as the light. The nation of Israel will still surround the new physical Jerusalem, after this reality has changed to the next. Besides, it won't be the sinful Israel after the Second Coming and the future 1,000 year reign. It will be a model Israel and will continue on into the next creation.

The verse is not saying that Israel will cease. It is saying the Israel that came out of Egypt will never cease as long as this creation is in existence. Israel will exist in the New Creation. The sun and moon will not exist in the New Creation. It will not be the same Israel that it is today. But there will always be an Israel.

Jesus is the primary citizen of Israel. Would you logically conclude these verses prove Jesus will cease to exist as well? As long as there is the Son of God, Israel will never cease to exist. After the 6th Seal, there will be 1200 from every tribe, who will always go with Jesus throughout time and space. They are Israel who will never cease to exist as well.

I understand that many just want to call this the "church". But Israel started way before there was a "church". Unless you want to say Jacob is the head of the church, instead of Jesus.

 

[grafted branch]

They will not cease to be. They will just be replaced by God and Jesus as the light.

If you have no issues with the sun and moon being replaced by God and Jesus as the light then you should have no problem with the idea of ethnic Israel being replaced by the true Israel of God. In both cases it involves promises being kept through replacement.

Really though, the people who are usually accused of replacement theology are the ones who see only one true Israel that has always been through faith.

 

[Timtofly]

If you have no issues with the sun and moon being replaced by God and Jesus as the light then you should have no problem with the idea of ethnic Israel being replaced by the true Israel of God. In both cases it involves promises being kept through replacement.

Really though, the people who are usually accused of replacement theology are the ones who see only one true Israel that has always been through faith.

So no more humans then?

Ethnic Israel is the only true Israel, of God.

Israel is the ethnic term, not Jacobites.

They (the sun and moon) are not replaced though. Those angels just don't have to obey the decree set up in Genesis 1. They will still exist. You think those created beings are killed, or replaced like people changing their belief system?

Ancient Israel did not hold up to their end of God's covenant with them. Yet the two lights have obeyed God's decree for the entire creation. The point is that God will never give up on Israel. Yet billions of ethnic Israelites will be placed in the LOF.

"Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken..."

What human can convince those 2 angels to stop being the sun and moon, or who can change reality? You keep saying ethnic Israel has stopped, or can be canceled by God. Nothing is being replaced in either scenario. In fact the relationship with Israel will continue forever, even when God tells the sun and moon, they can take vacation and visit the Bahamas.

I still cannot understand why some of you think it is impossible for the sun and moon to walk off the job. Would God not just send 2 more stars to take their place? If you believe some humans can replace other humans, why not stars replacing other stars positions in the firmament? Both humans and stars are created beings. The positions will still be filled, if that is how you look at this promise of God.

 

[David in NJ]

A definition of covenants

A divine covenant is (1) a disposition of God, whereby he establishes an unconditional or declarative compact with man, obligating himself, in grace, by the formula, “I WILL,” to bring to pass of himself definite blessings for the covenanted ones, or (2) a proposal of God, wherein he promises, in a conditional or mutual compact with man, by the contingent formula “IF YE WILL,” to grant special blessings to man provided he fulfills perfectly certain conditions, and to execute definite punishment in case of his failure

What are the two kinds of covenants:

The kinds of covenants. There are two kinds of covenants into which God entered with Israel: conditional and unconditional. In a conditional covenant that which was covenanted depends for its fulfillment upon the recipient of the covenant, not upon the one making the covenant. Certain obligations or conditions must be fulfilled by the receiver of the covenant before the giver of the covenant is obligated to fulfill that which was promised. It is a covenant with an “if” attached to it. The Mosaic covenant made by God with Israel is such a covenant. In an unconditional covenant that which was covenanted depends upon the one making the covenant alone for its fulfillment. That which was promised is given to the recipient of the covenant on the authority and integrity of the one making the covenant apart from the merit or response of the receiver. It is a covenant with no “if” attached to it whatsoever.

In Scripture there are 4 unconditional covenants, and one conditional (the Mosaic Law).

As opposed to Biblical Covenants, the Covenant Theology people have invented three covenants:
The theological terms, Covenant of Works and Covenant of Grace (and the Redemptive Covenant), do not occur in the Sacred Text. If they are to be sustained it must be wholly apart from Biblical authority…Upon this human invention of two covenants Reformed Theology has largely been constructed.

All of Israel’s covenants are called eternal except the Mosaic covenant which is declared to be temporal, i.e., it was to continue only until the coming of the Promised Seed. For this detail see as follows: (1) The Abrahamic Covenant is called“eternal” in Genesis 17:7, 13, 19; I Chronicles 16:17; Psalm 105:10; (2) The Palestinian Covenant is called “eternal” in Ezekiel 16:60; (3) The Davidic Covenant is called “eternal” in II Samuel 23:5; Isaiah 55:3; and Ezekiel 37:25; and (4) The New Covenant is called “eternal” in Isaiah 24:5; 61:8; Jeremiah 32:40; 50:5; and Hebrews 13:20.

More to come...

Concerning Salvation there are only TWO Covenants:
a.) the Old Testament Covenant/ Mosaic
b.) the NEW Covenant of Grace = the Blood of MESSIAH

the NEW Covenant of Grace was BEFORE the Mosaic covenant

Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
And this I say, that the law, which was 430 years AFTER,
cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

 

[KUWN]

Concerning Salvation there are only TWO Covenants:
a.) the Old Testament Covenant/ Mosaic
b.) the NEW Covenant of Grace = the Blood of MESSIAH

The Mosaic Law does not concern salvation. It was not how Israel was to be redeemed. The Mosaic Law is now obsolete, it was not a unconditional covenant, but a temporary until Christ came.

 

[grafted branch]

They (the sun and moon) are not replaced though. Those angels just don't have to obey the decree set up in Genesis 1. They will still exist. You think those created beings are killed, or replaced like people changing their belief system?

Jeremiah 31:36 says If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD. Are you proposing that ordinances remain before God while the sun and moon openly and willfully disobey the ordinances? If that’s the case then how can we trust any of the promises God made in the first place when those promises can be openly disobeyed?

"Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken..."

Thanks for bringing up Jeremiah 33. Can any human stop the earth from orbiting the sun or prevent the moon from orbiting the earth? Obviously that answer is no, so the covenant with David can’t be broken. Now let’s jump ahead and look at the following verses …

Jeremiah 33:25Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 26Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Was Jesus cast away or forsaken when He died on the cross? Yes, that is when the covenant with day and night ended, it’s when the ordinances of the sun and moon departed from before God. However the covenant with David couldn’t be broken which agrees with His resurrection.

This is why we see the sun and moon not obeying the ordinances in NHNE while at the same time David has a Son that reigns. This concept is also seen in Colossians 2:16-17 where we no longer judge based on the orbits of the sun and moon because their ordinances are no longer before God.

Colossians 2:16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ

 

[David in NJ]

The Mosaic Law does not concern salvation. It was not how Israel was to be redeemed. The Mosaic Law is now obsolete, it was not a unconditional covenant, but a temporary until Christ came.

The Mosaic Law is all about Salvation

The Law was our Tutor to bring us to CHRIST

What purpose then does the law serve?
It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[KUWN]

The Mosaic Law is all about Salvation

The Law was our Tutor to bring us to CHRIST

What purpose then does the law serve?
It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

That's right, the Mosaic Law could only bring us to Christ, but it was Christ who saves, and by belief. The Mosaic Law ceased or became obsolete on the Cross. But all throughout the Jewish Dispensation (centuries before Christ came to earth), the Law could not save. This is partly Paul's argument in Galatians.

 

[David in NJ]

That's right, the Mosaic Law could only bring us to Christ, but it was Christ who saves, and by belief. The Mosaic Law ceased or became obsolete on the Cross. But all throughout the Jewish Dispensation (centuries before Christ came to earth), the Law could not save. This is partly Paul's argument in Galatians.

AGREE = 100%

The Law could not save us because everyone broke the Law and the sacrifices were only temporary
The blood of bulls and goats under the Law could not make us = COMPLETE

What then, SAVED the saints before MESSIAH came and fulfilled the Law???

 

[KUWN]

What then, SAVED the saints before MESSIAH came and fulfilled the Law???

First of all, Rom 1 is something that all people experience. Look at what Paul says about the unbelievers:

since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

These verses tells us what unbelievers know:
What is known about God is plain to them
God's nature is made known to them
Creation requires a Creator
The visible universe declares that there is a God in heaven
This pre-gospel revelation renders all people without an excuse before God
Unbelievers know God, and they know that God is to be worshiped.
Their hearts were darkened because they rejected the God Who makes himself known

(This is why there are no legitimate atheists.)

In Acts 17, God made people to seek after God

So, the people were saved during the Mosaic Law by faith in the God who has revealed himself. Not just Jews, but all Gentiles came under conviction and had to accept the God who has revealed himself (the God they know inherently, Jews and Gentiles alike). This also explains how people got saved centuries before the Law was given.

 

[David in NJ]

First of all, Rom 1 is something that all people experience. Look at what Paul says about the unbelievers:

since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

These verses tells us what unbelievers know:
What is known about God is plain to them
God's nature is made known to them
Creation requires a Creator
The visible universe declares that there is a God in heaven
This pre-gospel revelation renders all people without an excuse before God
Unbelievers know God, and they know that God is to be worshiped.
Their hearts were darkened because they rejected the God Who makes himself known

(This is why there are no legitimate atheists.)

In Acts 17, God made people to seek after God

So, the people were saved during the Mosaic Law by faith in the God who has revealed himself. Not just Jews, but all Gentiles came under conviction and had to accept the God who has revealed himself (the God they know inherently, Jews and Gentiles alike). This also explains how people got saved centuries before the Law was given.

YES, God has made known His Truth in Creation.

We already covered the inefficiency of the Law - so let's move on from that and you covered the Truth expressed by God in His Creation.

Concerning the Israelites - how were they SAVED???

 

[KUWN]

YES, God has made known His Truth in Creation.

We already covered the inefficiency of the Law - so let's move on from that and you covered the Truth expressed by God in His Creation.

Concerning the Israelites - how were they SAVED???

I call the innate knowledge that all people have the pre-gospel message. All people are able to turn to God in faith whether they are Jews or non-Jews. The Jews had no advantage over the Gentiles. Salvation is by turning to God in faith based on the knowledge God gives to us innately.

 

[David in NJ]

I call the innate knowledge that all people have the pre-gospel message. All people are able to turn to God in faith whether they are Jews or non-Jews. The Jews had no advantage over the Gentiles. Salvation is by turning to God in faith based on the knowledge God gives to us innately.

Jews had no advantage over the Gentiles.

The Jews had TREMENDOUS ADVANTAGE = STRAIGHT from ELOHIM

Take your time and dwell on the scriptures for the answer.

SHALOM

 

[KUWN]

The Jews had TREMENDOUS ADVANTAGE = STRAIGHT from ELOHIM

Take your time and dwell on the scriptures for the answer.

SHALOM

Not in the area of Salvation.

 

[David in NJ]

Not in the area of Salvation.

Elohim is Salvation

The Jews had the True and Living Elohim

 

[KUWN]

Elohim is Salvation

The Jews had the True and Living Elohim

Your post is out in left field somewhere. "Elohim is Salvation" is a nonsensical statement. Show me one scholar who has made this statement. In other words, where did you get this statement from?

 

[David in NJ]

Your post is out in left field somewhere. "Elohim is Salvation" is a nonsensical statement. Show me one scholar who has made this statement. In other words, where did you get this statement from?

Never place your trust in 'scholars' - listen but always check from God/Elohim who is the Only One to Trust

Exodus 31:14-15

Elohim said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Elohim also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The YHWH Elohe of your fathers—
the Elohe of Abraham,
the Elohe of Isaac
the Elohe of Jacob
—has sent me to you.’
This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.