Revelation 7: 4-8 The 144000

[CTK]

If you are implying that this all takes place with 144,000 Jews, under the NC., God has firmly declared, through the Holy Spirit in Paul:
Rom. 10
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
God is no longer making any distinction of who is a Jew and who is not!

If I understand your response, I certainly agree for salvation purposes, there is no difference between Jew and Greek, however, God has a final mission for His people to fulfill at the end of time to bring both Gentiles (so many who have accepted the teachings of the little horn) as well as any other individual on the earth that has not accepted the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Messiah, Jesus. This will be their mission to bring others to salvation through the Testimony of Jesus and the Word of God unlike that which has been taught by the little horn over the past 1500 years. And also, only His people can complete the final 4th Great Jubilee cylce and usher in the Messiah.

 

[MonoBiblical]

If you are implying that this all takes place with 144,000 Jews, under the NC., God has firmly declared, through the Holy Spirit in Paul:
Rom. 10
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
God is no longer making any distinction of who is a Jew and who is not!

The 144,000 were not righteous, because they had to be redeemed. There were more than that many Israelites easily. Also, notice not all Israelites are Jews, and Dan is not mentioned like in Ezekiel. You seem to think the only nation of Israel is the Jew-duh.

 

[ewq1938]

The 144,000 were not righteous, because they had to be redeemed. There were more than that many Israelites easily. Also, notice not all Israelites are Jews, and Dan is not mentioned like in Ezekiel. You seem to think the only nation of Israel is the Jew-duh.

Jew here refers to all of Israel just as Greek means all gentiles not only people from Greece.

 

[Douggg]

A dif view: View attachment 54783

What? No 70th week ? No Armageddon ?


Ezekiel 39:1-8 - the destruction of Gog's army.

Ezekiel 39:9 - the 7 years that follow. At the first part of the 7 years will be the arrival of the prince that shall come, i.e. the little horn person, who the Jews will think is their long awaited messiah.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 - the Armageddon event, the text corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 - Jesus's return to this earth. Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Jew here refers to all of Israel just as Greek means all gentiles not only people from Greece.

It refers to the nationality of the kingships. Notice he didn't say there is neither Roman nor Jew. There is also the implication that the Greek speakers did not use Jewish-Hebrew copies of scriptures. Jew is never an Israelite specific word in the New Testament.

[Rom 1:16 KJV] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

(To the Jew and Greek foremost?) Perhaps more of them need to convert their lives.

 

[ewq1938]

What? No 70th week ? No Armageddon ?

No. This one was about the little horn getting to be a bigger horn in 5 stages.

 

[ewq1938]

Jew is never an Israelite specific word in the New Testament.

It is there. Paul is not speaking of only Jews of the tribe of Judah, or even the 3 tribes of the house of Judah. He is using "Jew" as a name for all of Israel.


SAme here:

Rom_2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom_2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

In fact most of the time the NT uses "Jew" it means anyone of Israel.

 

[MonoBiblical]

It is there. Paul is not speaking of only Jews of the tribe of Judah, or even the 3 tribes of the house of Judah. He is using "Jew" as a name for all of Israel.


SAme here:

Rom_2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom_2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

In fact most of the time the NT uses "Jew" it means anyone of Israel.

I misstate the fact. Jew is never a general term for Israelite in the NT. There can be no case otherwise. Judah has the kingship and the pharisees, and Judah used to rule Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed.

 

[ewq1938]

I misstate the fact. Jew is never a general term for Israelite in the NT.

That's more wrong. Jew is almost always a reference to anyone practicing Judaism of any tribe.

 

[MonoBiblical]

That's more wrong. Jew is almost always a reference to anyone practicing Judaism of any tribe.

Then why isn't called Leviticalism? They would have the correct tribe or nation of Israel.

Per the Blue Letter Bible, from Ἰούδα (G2448) (in the sense of Ἰούδας (G2455) as a country), but G2455 is a name of an individual.

 

[Douggg]

No. This one was about the little horn getting to be a bigger horn in 5 stages.

What text are you reading "bigger" ?

 

[ewq1938]

Then why isn't called Leviticalism? They would have the correct tribe or nation of Israel.

Per the Blue Letter Bible, from Ἰούδα (G2448) (in the sense of Ἰούδας (G2455) as a country), but G2455 is a name of an individual.

G2453
Ἰουδαῖος
Ioudaios
Thayer Definition:
1) Jewish, belonging to the Jewish nation
2) Jewish as respects to birth, origin, religion
Part of Speech: adjective

As you can see, it can refer to many things. When the bible says no Jew or Greek, this is well understood to be those of Israel vs. gentiles Not the tribe of Judah vs. those from Greece.

 

[Earburner]

Thanks for your thoughts! Here is my interpretation:


27Then he (Jesus) shall confirm a covenant (New Covenant) with many for (the word "for" is intentionally placed here. It is not for but "DURING," that is, it is consistent with the prophecy in 9:2-27), meaning, Jesus will confirm the NC DURING THE LAST WEEK OF THE PROPHECY - Jesus began His ministry on the first day of the last week (after the end of the 69th week), and He was on the earth for 3.5 years before He was crucified)...leaving for heaven before the end of the 7 years period....;
But in the middle of the week (exactly 3.5 years into the last week of the prophecy)
He (Jesus) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering (He is the perfect Passover Lamb of God - no futher need for animal sacrifices),
And on the wing of abominations (the abomination is the cross - the rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah) shall be one (Jesus) who makes desolate, (as a punishment for their rejection of Him, God would make Himself "desolate" from His people),

I agree 100% on your first part.
But after that, you have misunderstood what it was that is "determined" in KJV Dan. 9:24, which are the six works of God, completed/ "finished" by Jesus, and then on PENTECOST was to be poured upon the "desolate" [those who were/are void of God- Jews included, whosoever will receive it, albeit only a remnant.] Acts 10:44-45.

Even until the consummation, which is determined, (until it is consumated - until God has deemed it when He determines the "time of the Gentiles" is completed. and He removes the blindness from their eyes, and then His people will once again go out into the world preaching the Good News)
Is poured out on the desolate.” (this time period in only known to God how long the period of their punishment is but it will be when He determines the time of the Gentiles is over).

Because of Rom. 10:12, I strongly disagree 100% on your 2nd part.
The consummation is the END of all things of this world, and everything in it. KJV Luke 17:28-30; 2 Thes. 1:7-10; 2 Peter ch. 3.

Daniel chapter 9 is all about the Messiah.

Indeed it is, as I have also shown.

 

[Earburner]

If I understand your response, I certainly agree for salvation purposes, there is no difference between Jew and Greek, however, God has a final mission for His people to fulfill at the end of time to bring both Gentiles (so many who have accepted the teachings of the little horn) as well as any other individual on the earth that has not accepted the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Messiah, Jesus. This will be their mission to bring others to salvation through the Testimony of Jesus and the Word of God unlike that which has been taught by the little horn over the past 1500 years. And also, only His people can complete the final 4th Great Jubilee cylce and usher in the Messiah.

Unfortunately, you are still making a distinction between Jews and Gentiles, whereas God Is NOT!!
Gal. 6
[15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Thanks for the discussion so far. It's a rare thing for Christians to agree on anything in Dan. 9:24-27, especially the full reality that it is all about Jesus and His works of salvation for ALL of us in this present Age of God's Grace towards us, through the sacrificial work of Jesus, being the "sin bearer".
However, in His Glorious return from Heaven, in flaming [fiery] fire, for we who are looking for Him, He will not be coming as the "sin bearer" at that time, nor any longer, but rather to redeem all who are born again of His Holy Spirit unto Himself, on THAT singular 24 hour Day. KJV Luke 17:28-30; Heb. 9:28; 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel chapter 9 is all about the Messiah.

If Daniel 9 is all about the Messiah, then why in Daniel 9:24 the 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem ?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. kjv

 

[A Freeman]

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gibraltar-messenger.net

 

[Johann]

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gibraltar-messenger.net

Jesus is NOT Michael.


Daniel was very clearly told that NONE except Prince Michael/Christ Himself held the correct interpretation (Dan. 10:21), before he was commanded by Prince Michael/Christ to seal the book until the end of time (Dan. 12:1-4), when He (Prince Michael/Christ) would break the seals and correctly explain it (Rev. 5:1-5).

Please think about that very carefully.

Final Note: There may be a third fulfillment of this prophecy in the near future, immediately preceding Judgment Day, when Prince Michael/Christ will shed the body He is currently using (Matt. 24:28-30) to complete His Mission and be seen coming in the “Clouds” with the “Eagles”, as The Commander of the heavenly host (James 5:4, Rev. 1:7, Rev. 12:7).

https://gibraltar-messenger.net/jahtruth/daniels-70-weeks-correctly-explained-at-last/#:~:text=Daniel%20was%20very,Email

J.

 

[CTK]

Unfortunately, you are still making a distinction between Jews and Gentiles, whereas God Is NOT!!
Gal. 6
[15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Thanks for the discussion so far. It's a rare thing for Christians to agree on anything in Dan. 9:24-27, especially the full reality that it is all about Jesus and His works of salvation for ALL of us in this present Age of God's Grace towards us, through the sacrificial work of Jesus, being the "sin bearer".
However, in His Glorious return from Heaven, in flaming [fiery] fire, for we who are looking for Him, He will not be coming as the "sin bearer" at that time, nor any longer, but rather to redeem all who are born again of His Holy Spirit unto Himself, on THAT singular 24 hour Day. KJV Luke 17:28-30; Heb. 9:28; 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

Here are a few verses to consider:

1. Romans 11:25-26:
   • "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.'”

This passage speaks of a future time when God will remove the "blindness" from Israel, leading to their salvation and restoration.

1. Ezekiel 37:21-22:
   • "Then say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them, and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.'”

Ezekiel’s prophecy of the valley of dry bones emphasizes restoration, unity, and a return to God under His leadership.

1. Zechariah 12:10:
   • "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."

This verse predicts a future recognition of Jesus as the Messiah by His people.

4. Isaiah 66:19:

• "I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations."

This speaks of God’s people being sent to declare His glory to the nations.

1. Revelation 14:6-7:
   • "Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language, and people. He said in a loud voice, 'Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.'”

While referring to an angel, this also aligns with the mission of God’s people proclaiming the Good News at the end of times.

1. Revelation 7:1-8

"Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 'Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.' Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel." (Revelation 7:2-4)

This passage introduces the 144,000: Here, the 144,000 are described as being sealed by God, marking them as His servants and protecting them during a time of judgment.

1. Revelation 14:1-5

"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before t he four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless." (Revelation 14:1-5)

This passage further elaborates on the character and mission of the 144,000:

1. Sealed as Servants of God: The 144,000 are marked with God’s seal, signifying their divine protection and dedication to His purpose.
2. Proclaimers of the Gospel: Although not explicitly stated in these verses, their role aligns with the broader biblical narrative of God’s chosen people being a light to the nations (Isaiah 49:6) and proclaiming the Good News (Matthew 28:19-20).
3. Followers of the Lamb: They demonstrate complete loyalty to Jesus, "following the Lamb wherever he goes" (Revelation 14:4
4. Symbol of Purity and Truth: Their description as blameless and truthful underscores their role as faithful witnesses in a time of great spiritual deception

Salvation is not dependent on whether one is a Jew or Greek but God has a final mission for His people at the end of time. They are His 144,000.

 

[MonoBiblical]

G2453
Ἰουδαῖος
Ioudaios
Thayer Definition:
1) Jewish, belonging to the Jewish nation
2) Jewish as respects to birth, origin, religion
Part of Speech: adjective

As you can see, it can refer to many things. When the bible says no Jew or Greek, this is well understood to be those of Israel vs. gentiles Not the tribe of Judah vs. those from Greece.

The definition is highly wrong. Ioudaios is from iouda which is not a region but a tribe especially so when looking at the 144,000. [Rev 7:5 NIV] 5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

7:5 ἐκ φυλῆς Ἰούδα δώδεκα χιλιάδες ἐσφραγισμένοι

A generic Ioudaios, male of Judah descendent, can be used as an example of an Israelite. But the meaning of the word is person of Judah.

 

[Earburner]

Here are a few verses to consider:

1. Romans 11:25-26:
   • "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.'”

This passage speaks of a future time when God will remove the "blindness" from Israel, leading to their salvation and restoration.

Sorry, Rom. 11:25-26 is to be read now in the past tense. The Messiah/Savior did come from Heavenly Sion to Israel in the flesh first, to be the sin bearer of ALL the world as the Lamb of God, past, present and future.
However, upon His Glorious return, in flaming (fiery) fire, He will suddenly come, being "without sin", no longer as the sin bearer.
Heb. 9:28.

1. Ezekiel 37:21-22:
   • "Then say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them, and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.'”

Ezekiel’s prophecy of the valley of dry bones emphasizes restoration, unity, and a return to God under His leadership.

Sorry, only through faith in Jesus NOW, shall they "become one stick", being born again New creatures in Christ. He Himself is the "valley that they are to flee to".

1. Zechariah 12:10:
   • "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."

This verse predicts a future recognition of Jesus as the Messiah by His people.

Sorry, all that began on the day of Pentecost.
Acts 10:44-45.

4. Isaiah 66:19:

• "I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations."

This speaks of God’s people being sent to declare His glory to the nations.

Surely, you DO KNOW that BOTH the Jews and Gentiles, who are born again, have been doing that since Pentecost.

1. Revelation 14:6-7:
   • "Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language, and people. He said in a loud voice, 'Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.'”

While referring to an angel, this also aligns with the mission of God’s people proclaiming the Good News at the end of times.

The hour of God's judgment commenced ever since the death and resurrection of Jesus. It's found in John 3:18.

1. Revelation 7:1-8

"Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 'Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.' Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel." (Revelation 7:2-4)

This passage introduces the 144,000: Here, the 144,000 are described as being sealed by God, marking them as His servants and protecting them during a time of judgment.

Sorry, the 144,000 are those who were under the OC. of Israel, who were of faith in the "Promise to come". Malachi 3:16; Rev. 6:9-11. Therefore, for those whom God Remembered, He did not forget them. So also said the repentant thief on the cross. Luke 23:42

1. Revelation 14:1-5

"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before t he four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless." (Revelation 14:1-5)

This passage further elaborates on the character and mission of the 144,000:

Sorry, Look again to those whom God Remembered! But this time in Mat. 27:50-54; Rev. 6:9-11.

1. Sealed as Servants of God: The 144,000 are marked with God’s seal, signifying their divine protection and dedication to His purpose.
2. Proclaimers of the Gospel: Although not explicitly stated in these verses, their role aligns with the broader biblical narrative of God’s chosen people being a light to the nations (Isaiah 49:6) and proclaiming the Good News (Matthew 28:19-20).
3. Followers of the Lamb: They demonstrate complete loyalty to Jesus, "following the Lamb wherever he goes" (Revelation 14:4
4. Symbol of Purity and Truth: Their description as blameless and truthful underscores their role as faithful witnesses in a time of great spiritual deception

Salvation is not dependent on whether one is a Jew or Greek but God has a final mission for His people at the end of time. They are His 144,000.

Yes indeed. The symbolic 144,000, who had died under the OC., were sealed by the permanent Gift of the Holy Spirit, right after Jesus Himself gave up the ghost. Mat. 27:50-54; Rev. 6:9-11; Eph. 4:9-10.