Christianity is essentially admitting you are God without admitting you are God

[Skovand]

Christianity began as a sect of Judaism. Primitive Christianity is Jewish, unitarian; not trinitarian.

Christianity became trinitarian after it broke away from Judaism.

Trinitarianism destroyed the dogma of Judaism.

Trinitarians are destroying trinitarian dogma when they say believing the doctrine of Trinity is not a salvation issue.

Judaism begin as polytheist beliefs, than mostly be monistic, and lastly became mostly monotheistic.

 

[Matthias]

Judaism begin as polytheist beliefs, than mostly be monistic, and lastly became mostly monotheistic.

When would you say Judaism bagan?

 

[Matthias]

What was the Messiah’s religion? Judaism. Jesus is a monotheist.

Whenever the Jews fell into idolatry they were falling out of the monotheism of their religion and into the polytheism of their pagan neighbors.

 

[Skovand]

When would you say Judaism bagan?

Don’t know enough about when it begin. It developed slowly over hundreds of years out of Canaanite polytheism. Some of the poems in the Bible are even poems originally wrote to Baal, which later was changed into poems to El. At one time those who became Jews were broken up into two main sects. One worshipped a God named Yahweh and told the stories of Genesis 2-3 and another sect worshipped a God named El and had the stories of Genesis 1. Overtime those sects merged. But there was no starting point of Judaism. It’s like trying to find the first time someone spoke English. You can’t. English developed out of other languages. To understand how religion developed is to understand how languages developed.

 

[Matthias]

Don’t know enough about when it begin. It developed slowly over hundreds of years out of Canaanite polytheism. Some of the poems in the Bible are even poems originally wrote to Baal, which later was changed into poems to El. At one time those who became Jews were broken up into two main sects. One worshipped a God named Yahweh and told the stories of Genesis 2-3 and another sect worshipped a God named El and had the stories of Genesis 1. Overtime those sects merged. But there was no starting point of Judaism. It’s like trying to find the first time someone spoke English. You can’t. English developed out of other languages. To understand how religion developed is to understand how languages developed.

I think most people would say that Judaism began with Moses. Said another way, Mt. Sinai is the starting point of Judaism.

 

[Skovand]

What was the Messiah’s religion? Judaism. Jesus is a monotheist.

Whenever the Jews fell into idolatry they were falling out of the monotheism of their religion and into the polytheism of their pagan neighbors.

We don’t know exactly what Jesus believed. The way we view Judaism is very different from how they viewed Judaism. Was Jesus a Jew who belonged to the Pharisees or the Sadducees? Even in the first century, Judaism was still very monistic and not just monotheistic.

 

[Skovand]

I think most people would say that Judaism began with Moses.

And most biblical scholars would say Moses was a fictional character who was created by merging multiple different characters into one. And not just most biblical scholars but most historians from around the world, of many faiths, dating back before Christianity was around lands on Moses being a character created by heavily mythicized stories of various people. Originally of an Egyptian or Persian man. Later on Jews reimagined him as their prophet.

 

[Matthias]

We don’t know exactly what Jesus believed.

Jesus tells us what he believes.

The way we view Judaism is very different from how they viewed Judaism. Was Jesus a Jew who belonged to the Pharisees or the Sadducees? Even in the first century, Judaism was still very monistic and not just monotheistic.

Jesus wasn’t a Pharisee or a Sadducee.

Jesus was the head of, the founder of, the sect known as Nazarene.

 

[Matthias]

And most biblical scholars would say Moses was a fictional character who was created by merging multiple different characters into one.

I don’t think most would, but what about you? Do you think Moses was “a fictional character created by merging different characters into one”?

 

[Skovand]

Jesus tells us what he believes.



Jesus was the head of, the founder of, the sect known as Nazarene.

Jesus told people what he believed and those people wrote it down decades later and then it’s been translated from two or three languages before making its way into English with books and saying being added and taken away and edited.

 

[Skovand]

I don’t think most would, but what about you? Do you think Moses was “a fictional character created by merging different characters into one”?

I genuinely land on the side of most biblical scholars and historians.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus told people what he believed and those people wrote it down decades later and then it’s been translated from two or three languages before making its way into English with books and saying being added and taken away and edited.

We have to listen to Jesus. That’s the only way to become one of his disciples.

 

[Matthias]

I genuinely land on the side of most biblical scholars and historians.

Which I gather means that you think Moses was a fictional character.

I believe Moses is a non-fictional character.

 

[Skovand]

Well. I’ve reached the end of how much time I am willing to spend on this subject. If you are curious, I highly suggest looking at 20-30 different biblical scholars from all races, denominations and nations and see what you turn up. I spent 8 months just studying about Moses several years ago. Then look at what 20-30 historians have written about Moses. That’s how I study.

I find a subject or person I’m interested in and read thousands of pages and listen to hundreds of hours of discussions on them. I look at those who accept it blindly, those who have spent decades researching it and land on various positions. I look at information that’s still in journals by emailing biblical scholars and sometimes I even have to hire a translator to communicate or interpret something for me.

Then I develop what I think is most likely. Normally down to 2-3 possibilities and share all three. Like I do with conditional immortality and universalism.

 

[Skovand]

Which I gather means that you think Moses was a fictional character.

We’ll try this.

Without using a Bible verse or biblical commentary, or someone a century or so after Moses supposedly lived, what’s the evidence you see to indicate he was real? Let’s start with that.

 

[Matthias]

We’ll try this.

Without using a Bible verse or biblical commentary, or someone a century or so after Moses supposedly lived, what’s the evidence you see to indicate he was real? Let’s start with that.

In that regard, let’s start with Jesus. I believe he is a real character. Not only a real character, but a real character who said we should believe what Moses wrote about him.

 

[Matthias]

Is there anyone else (besides Moses) named in the Hebrew Bible that you think is only a fictional character @Skovand?

Is there anyone named in the Hebrew Bible who you think is a non-fictional character?

 

[Skovand]

In that regard, let’s start with Jesus. I believe he is a real character. Not only a real character, but a real character who said we should believe what Moses wrote about him.

So that’s just goal post changing.

You mentioned wanting real discussions. If you want to have a real discussion with me about Moses, who you asked about, then I stated what we need to do. If that’s not something you want to do, then the discussion is not happening on my end. I don’t just constantly jump around because someone wants to change the goal post. I don’t care either way. I’ve had this discussion about the authenticity of Moses about 40 times, with some spanning 5 hours on the phone over three days and hundreds of email exchanges and they were working towards their bachelors in Jewish studies. Some agreed, some disagreed, some changed their minds, some ended the discussion to dove into studying it out and I’ve not heard back for months.

But the spot to begin with Moses is with Moses. The spot with Moses to begin with on debating if he existed or not is to look for historical evidence for his existence outside of the Bible. Let’s say…. What Egyptian historians from that era mentioned him? Was there other men with that name that existed that had similar stories centuries before the Jews wrote about a man with a similar name? Those are real spots to begin for those who want a real discussion.

Otherwise, I have a vegan burger to make and a horror movie to watch and a fiancee to call.

 

[Matthias]

So that’s just goal post changing.

You mentioned wanting real discussions. If you want to have a real discussion with me about Moses, who you asked about, then I stated what we need to do. If that’s not something you want to do, then the discussion is not happening on my end. I don’t just constantly jump around because someone wants to change the goal post. I don’t care either way. I’ve had this discussion about the authenticity of Moses about 40 times, with some spanning 5 hours on the phone over three days and hundreds of email exchanges and they were working towards their bachelors in Jewish studies. Some agreed, some disagreed, some changed their minds, some ended the discussion to dove into studying it out and I’ve not heard back for months.

But the spot to begin with Moses is with Moses. The spot with Moses to begin with on debating if he existed or not is to look for historical evidence for his existence outside of the Bible. Let’s say…. What Egyptian historians from that era mentioned him? Was there other men with that name that existed that had similar stories centuries before the Jews wrote about a man with a similar name? Those are real spots to begin for those who want a real discussion.

Otherwise, I have a vegan burger to make and a horror movie to watch and a fiancee to call.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to start with Jesus, given the parameter you specified.

Don’t let me keep you from your food, your movie and your woman.

 

[Matthias]

We have to listen to Jesus. That’s the only way to become one of his disciples.

When I hear someone say Moses is a fictional character, it causes me to wonder if they might also say Jesus is a fictional character.

Casting doubt on the historical figure of Moses undermines and casts doubt on the historical figure of Jesus.