I met Heiser at a conference in Atlanta sometime in the 90’s.
Any standard Hebrew Lexicon will tell us what elohim “actually” meant / means.
Christianity is essentially admitting you are God without admitting you are God
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I met Heiser at a conference in Atlanta sometime in the 90’s.
Any standard Hebrew Lexicon will tell us what elohim “actually” meant / means.
Not necessarily. Some overtime have been shown that they are not good.
So Elohim means spiritual being and is a term applied to ghosts, angels and gods. It’s not the name of god. The name of the Elohim we worship is El/Yahweh. Many people, tons and tons of people, consider Elohim ( god ) as the name. But it’s not.
I was just giving you the names to research it for yourself in case you tried to turn it into a debate.
So , by depends on what he means, I meant if he means god like the word god is used in the Bible then yes humans are gods. Even Jesus says it. But if he meant god as in the westernized sense does of god as the creator all powerful all knowing, then we are not gods.
No they don’t. Just like eyewitnesses for all the other gods and so on don’t prove it.
Nothing happens. The trinity is a modern belief and it’s a bit ambiguous. Many different people use terms like trinity and mean very different things.
For one there is high and low Christology. Within the belief that Jesus is God in the flesh there are multiple views. One is that the Holy Spirit is the soul/spirit Jesus was born with. Was made to forget life and overtime more was revealed. Some say Jesus is the son of God, that the Holy Spirit blended with the good spirit of Mary producing a son who was equal to god. Some say Jesus was purely a man, but so close to god and righteousness that overtime he begin to be possessed by and become one with God. Some say that just like the angels slept with women, so did the angel of god sleep with Mary and get her pregnant and that the spiritual angel entered into the flesh to become Jesus. Many different views on Jesus.
Then with the Holy Spirit some thinks that the Holy Spirit is a being and some thinks it’s a power. That the HS is the power of god, not an indecent agent of god with personhood.
What the trinity is is so highly debated. There are also those that argue that the angel of the lord was not Jesus and that the trinity should actually be four beings. God, angel of the Lord, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
For one there is high and low Christology. Within the belief that Jesus is God in the flesh there are multiple views. One is that the Holy Spirit is the soul/spirit Jesus was born with. Was made to forget life and overtime more was revealed. Some say Jesus is the son of God, that the Holy Spirit blended with the good spirit of Mary producing a son who was equal to god. Some say Jesus was purely a man, but so close to god and righteousness that overtime he begin to be possessed by and become one with God. Some say that just like the angels slept with women, so did the angel of god sleep with Mary and get her pregnant and that the spiritual angel entered into the flesh to become Jesus. Many different views on Jesus.
Then with the Holy Spirit some thinks that the Holy Spirit is a being and some thinks it’s a power. That the HS is the power of god, not an indecent agent of god with personhood.
What the trinity is is so highly debated. There are also those that argue that the angel of the lord was not Jesus and that the trinity should actually be four beings. God, angel of the Lord, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Something happened to me when I did.
Debating the Trinity has never made much sense to me. The Catholic Church in the 4th century defined what the Trinity is and what the consequences are for worshipping or not worshipping the Triune God.
DuckieLady
Well-Known Member
I'm not God. God is the one from the beginning defined who He was and is the same now and forever. You don't need to be a superhuman to be able to read.
And as for mysteries, yes, there are several things we are not meant to know. Haven't you read Job?
Job 38
So, we don't know. So, yes, He is God!
How much damage is being done in those debates by the trinitarians who say that it isn’t a salvation issue? I have agreement with trinitarians who say that it isn’t and respect for trinitarians who say that it is. What a mess men have made with their debating.
Sure. But for everyone who is not Catholic, what the Catholics think don’t really matter. What they think about the pope, baptism, original sin and so on does not mean anything to me anymore than what muslims think about Jesus. I’m not a catholic and I think the Catholics were wrong about all kinds of stuff.
As for people’s personal experiences with things like “ near death “ it’s also meaningless to me. There are hundreds of NDE that are all very different. Including ones built around Buddhism, Islam , paganism and so on. It’s just neurons and synaptic poppings. Like with dreams .
I don’t think any damage is being done. I don’t think any denomination is right or wrong. It’s man’s attempts at wresting with the unknowns of faith. I think Catholics, coptics, Lutherans, Muslims, pagans, Protestants, and so on are all equally right and wrong.
As for debating. It’s how people define their ideas, last time. Some enjoy it. Some don’t. I enjoy debates with people who I find worthy to debate on issues I think are fun to debate. But I don’t think any doctrine or debate makes any difference on the afterlife.
No Catholics, no post-biblical doctrine of the Trinity. It wasn’t the Protestants who developed and defined it. When Protestants left they took what the Catholics did with them and thought it unnecessary to change it. Now they are divided on whether or not believing the doctrine is a salvation issue.
I think real damage is being done. If it is a salvation issue, trinitarians who say that it isn’t are harming non-trinitarians and historical orthodox trinitarianism.
Confusion always causes damage. Trinitarians who say that it is a salvation issue and trinitarians who say that it isn’t a salvation issue has to be confusing for those who are considering trinitarianism.
Debating is a Lose - Lose proposition for those who engage in it. Each side digs in their heels and hardens their hearts as they attempt to vanquish one another on the stage.
So not all sects of Christians have believed in the trinity. Not all sects who have believed in the trinity believed in the same trinity as put forth by Catholics. Coptics are not Catholic or Protestant and have a lineage going back just as Catholics. Catholics and Protestants are both just sects of Christianity. Without Catholics, same beliefs would probably still exist since numerous ones have already existed. Catholics simply were backed by the government of various nations first. Catholics from the first few centuries would not even recognize all the beliefs of modern Catholics.
I think debates can be healthy. Just like discussions can be unhealthy. Everyone is at different levels on different subjects. Most people started off with very different beliefs in their 30s than in their 20s and in the 50s than in their 30s. It’s natural. As people gain more experiences and wisdom, their minds change. Somethings change a lot. Some things change very little. The Christianity I had in my early 20s was more similar to the forms of Christianity I see dominating these forums while the Christianity I am at now in my mid 30s is very different. Most of the changes in my life have came about because of debates. During the debate, I would hear things that sometimes made sense, or sometimes sounded completely stupid, and it would still lead to me looking into it and many times I’ve changed my mind.
I use to think word for word literal biblical translations were the best translations. I defended that position from what I thought was logical for years. Talked with a Chinese woman and an American biblical translator in Mexico and they presented arguments that made me rethink it. I studied it for a few months, read the New Testament about 20 times in 6 months and the New Testament twice during that time. Using different translations. Asked people from other countries what their translations said with key words. It made a bunch of sense and I now think thought got thought bibles are more important for the masses. That a thought for thought can better convey biblical scholarship than word for word often.
Somethings my mind won’t change on. Such as me viewing the Bible as mostly metaphorical. That many of the stories from the old testament to the New Testament is probably fiction. Some I’m quite certain is 100% fiction like Genesis 1-11. That won’t ever change. I came to this spot after 4 years of studying the Bible in college, after thousands of hours of listening to podcasts by scholars, reading books by scholars, reading stuff by scientists and so on.
I don’t have a particular stance on the trinity. I don’t care about it. It’s one of the least important things to me in the Bible and I don’t think god or Jesus cares either. Otherwise it would have been far more clear. I also don’t think the Bible was written for systematic theology. Christianity has various directions it has developed. You have very westernized theology and very easternized theology. You have very modern theology and very ancient theology and sometimes what we think is historical, has actually only been historically true for a few sects for a few centuries. You have very liberal Christianity and very conservative Christianity. Very this and very that Christianity. I don’t think any of it matters. I think having a good heart proved by good deeds is what is important. I don’t think any theology is very important outside of is it encouraging justice and love or is it encouraging oppression and hatred .
That’s right. And how have they treated one another? Until a couple of hundred years ago, Catholics and Protestants were persecuting non-trinitarians, torturing them, killing them, confiscating their property. What does that say for trinitarianism?
Have you been watching how trinitarians speak to and about non-trinitarians on this forum? I hope everyone does.
And what about the non-trinitarians? Are they doing any better?
There are exceptions on both sides. Those are the people I’m interested in speaking with.
Christianity looks ugly, not attractive. What happens on these forums, on the whole, can’t be pleasing to God, nor to the Messiah.
I would hate to be in the shoes of someone who is thinking about becoming a Christian. This is no place for them to be.
That’s a defect in trinitarianism.
If it isn’t a salvation issue then all of the ugliness surrounding the debate is self-inflicted wounds. If it isn’t a salvation issue then the time is better spent on those things which are.
Trinitarians who think it is a salvation issue are verbally abusing non-trinitarians at the gate and ignoring the enemy within -> trinitarians who say that it isn’t.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Wow, that is quite the jumbled mess! Understandably.
The reason it comes across that way...is intentional, to be fair. You see, everyone is born ignorant of just what it is they have landed in. The first witness or encounter between God and humanity came in the beginning and has continued down through all of history. That first witness became like the first piece to an immense puzzle. So what you are experiencing now is a little piece here and little piece there--because, yes, after being touched by God we become a part of Him--but only part. Meaning, if you talk to one person and then another and then another, they won't necessarily even seem to agree--because one person is given their part so far apart from another that it is hard to get the big picture, or even a straight answer.
In other words, if someone cut up the Mona Lisa and the pieces were scattered all around the world, and someone gave you one of those pieces and told you to hang on to it, it's worth a hundred million dollars, if you showed someone and they thought you were crazy...it wouldn't mean you were actually crazy. It would simply mean they weren't getting the whole picture. And if they told you to prove it--your little piece would not do it for them. Not that proof of God is not available--but that is simply the wrong approach.
But some of those faced with being told the above who believe it go to the front of the line and receive their own piece and touch from God. And so it goes. To the contrary, those looking upon the great line of those down through all of history that have been witnesses to the presence of God by all manner of miracles and sharing their encounters with God, those who do not believe against all that has been presented, remain out of the line of revelation and encounter with God; and miss out on the promise of God of life without evil after this, when the times of this world come to a close.
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Christianity began as a sect of Judaism. Primitive Christianity is Jewish, unitarian; not trinitarian.
Christianity became trinitarian after it broke away from Judaism.
Trinitarianism destroyed the dogma of Judaism.
Trinitarians are destroying trinitarian dogma when they say believing the doctrine of Trinity is not a salvation issue.
Christianity became trinitarian after it broke away from Judaism.
Trinitarianism destroyed the dogma of Judaism.
Trinitarians are destroying trinitarian dogma when they say believing the doctrine of Trinity is not a salvation issue.
I’m a omnistic Christian. I think Vishnu is the same god as Yahweh and that they are the same god as El and they are the same god as Ahura Mazdā , Kaze-no-kami, Odin and so on. I think even in the new faiths that won’t for a million years on some planet we don’t even know about, I think that god is the same too. I think Buddhism, Shintoism, Paganism, Christianity and so on all can guide someone to Jesus Christ. So for me the trinity is far too small of a concept to cage god in. I think atheism can lead someone to Christ in the next life because even in atheism you can be drove to committing acts of love and justice. I think the belief that out of billions of years and billions of planets god chose to only speak to one group of beings a few thousand years ago is ridiculous.
I think the word has become flesh a thousand times and will become flesh a thousand more times including in forms that don’t even exist yet .
I think the word has become flesh a thousand times and will become flesh a thousand more times including in forms that don’t even exist yet .
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