THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[amigo de christo]

SEE @CadyandZoe

Each and every response you have to TRUTH is from the spirit of error that wants you to devalue the FATHER's Will.

Fallen human logic is why the pharisees wanted the SAVIOR to be killed = same with all false doctrines(jw) today

You can kill off TRUTH in your heart by rejecting it or making it VOID thru unbelief.

There is only One Voice you need to listen to = HIS Voice

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Anyone who devalues the SON devalues the FATHER, even to the point of calling God a liar - which is rampant on here!

The spiritual nostrils of a lamb whiffs n sniffs and every WORD of GOD is a fragrance of upmost beauty .
And to the nostrils of a lamb no matter how much one tries to sugar coat a turd , a lie , IT STINKS DAVID .
they can put all the sugar they want on a turd , but it STINKS my friend .

 

[Scott Downey]

men will do and believe as men will do and believe .
but a lamb beleives ONLY that WHICH IS OF GOD .

JW core beliefs

Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Marvelloustime]

The spiritual nostrils of a lamb whiffs n sniffs and every WORD of GOD is a fragrance of upmost beauty .
And to the nostrils of a lamb no matter how much one tries to sugar coat a turd , a lie , IT STINKS DAVID .
they can put all the sugar they want on a turd , but it STINKS my friend .

@amigo de christo Yep. Lambs will stick to the scriptures.

 

[amigo de christo]

JW core beliefs

Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

go to and read what i left to david.
then know and understand i follow not the JW , for its feet have well wallowed in dung .
It dont matter how much one tries to decorate , sugar up a turd . ITS GONNA STINK my friend .
a lie is a foul wrenched turd to the nose of a lamb .

 

[Pierac]

So... I'm starting from the beginninhg of this thread... but see no truth... just comments!

 

[APAK]

Despite this, @RedFan continued with the claim that John 17:5 proves the trinity.

He is let loose with a a few large rubber stamps and an ink pad and lots ink to cover or conceal the fact that Jesus the Christ was created to become the Son of God and nothing more, and yes, God, his Father made him a special lord as savior for us as well.

Wherever he reads lord, capitalized or not, he stamps over it with the Jesus is God and LORD and debases his God. Whenever the Son of God refers to his Father and speaks to him as his Son, the Son somehow becomes the the author of creation, the Creator God, and stamps it with Jesus our Creator, and again debases his God. And there are more of these stamps of course and applied as needed to force the Trinity into scripture. Kind of childish not yet ready to mature for some reason.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So... I'm starting from the beginninhg of this thread... but see no truth... just comments!

so what is the truth

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

That's good. As a trinitarian, what do you make of the absence of the trinity (concept, not just word) and no verse teaching why believe in the trinity is important?

So you don't want to give futility a rest?

If it was absent, why has it been a accepted by the majority of scholars and Chriatians for at least 1700 years?

In Matt.3:16-17 Father, Son and Holy Spirit were present
1 Pet. 1:2. F, S, HS
Eph. 2:18. F, S, HS
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
@APAK and all Non-Trinitarians!
It is not just your concept of Jesus not being God, but your concept of the Holy Spirit too. He is God and a distinct person from the Father and the Son, several verses show that.( John 14:16-17, 26; John 15:26; John 16:7-8, 14-15) And for you to not acknowledge the Holy Spirit as a person, distinct from Jesus and the Father, when we are to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, Who is our Counselor, Comforter, sanctified us, justifies us, teaches, guides, convicts, bears witness to and glorifies Christ, gives gifts and edifies us ... well, it is likely you do not have a relationship with Him either. Many believers in Christ forsake a very important key step that seals the deal, being baptized by the Holy Spirit. It is as if you were disciples of Christ for years and Pentecost never came. Those disciples did not have power from above to go out and do what they did until they received the Holy Spirit.

 

[IronMaiden]

so what is the truth

Here is Truth—The Trinity plainly revealed here:

Isaiah 9:6 (NKJV) For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Wrangler]

And there are more of these stamps of course and applied as needed to force the Trinity into scripture. Kind of childish not yet ready to mature for some reason.

I think it is intellectual dishonesty, so invested in the inherently contradictory doctrine, all roads must lead to it. The Emperor Has No Clothes and they cannot admit it no matter what.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Christ says they shall never die

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Read it again…..those who “believe” in Jesus as Messiah and Redeemer, even if they die, they will live….but when and how? What did Jesus say?
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.“ (John 5:28-29)

When Jesus said this, he was still alive as a human on earth….and he said the hour was “coming” when the resurrection would take place….he calls all the dead from their tombs……so what happened to all of God’s faithful servants of old…where did they go when they died?
Jesus is the “firstborn from the dead” and no one went to heaven before he did. (Col 1:18; John 3:13) As God’s worshippers, they believed in Sheol as the place where all humans go when they die. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Psalm 115:17) The Hebrew word “sheol” is translated as “the grave”.

Now see what that last statement says….”And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.”

Whoever “lives” and believes in me “will never die”….What is the timing here?

Those who died before the scheduled resurrection of the dead, (and there is a schedule for these things to take place) either of the “first resurrection” or the later resurrection mentioned by Jesus in John 5:28-29, so, they would “sleep in death” (a condition of complete unconsciousness) until it was time to bring the resurrected ones back to life. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Only those who have died can be resurrected…but if those of the elect are still alive when Christ comes as judge, they will not have to die at all……the elect are transformed in an instant….never needing to die.

1 Thess 4:16-17…..(see also 1 Cor 15:51-54)…
“because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.”

The body dies, the spirit does not die, the ones who believe in Him never die.
The body falls asleep.

Since Christ says they never die, then there is no possibility of death ever.

Death is the opposite of life…Adam was not told he would go to “heaven of hell”, but back to the dust from which he was created. Solomon said that “the dead know nothing”….they can’t think, plan, or engage in any activity….it doesn’t just say the body, but the person….the soul that lives and breathes, stops breathing and dies. (Ezek 18:4) Even their emotions have perished. (Eccl 9:6) How can love die if the person lives on?

Satan’s first lie was that you don’t really die…..belief in an immortal soul or spirit supports that lie….death would not come to mankind unless they disobeyed….when tempted to disbelieve what God had said, he told them that they could eat the fruit without the penalty of death….but not a single human has avoided the death penalty….since Eden…

 

[Wrangler]

So you don't want to give futility a rest?

If it was absent, why has it been a accepted by the majority of scholars and Chriatians for at least 1700 years?

In Mayt.3:16-17 three were present

After you answer my questions, I’ll answer yours.

 

[CadyandZoe]

SEE @CadyandZoe

Each and every response you have to TRUTH is from the spirit of error that wants you to devalue the FATHER's Will.

That isn't true. I have said nothing to devalue the Father's will. Why make stuff up?

Anyone who devalues the SON devalues the FATHER, even to the point of calling God a liar - which is rampant on here!

I never devalued the Son.

 

[APAK]

Here is Truth—The Trinity plainly revealed here:

Isaiah 9:6 (NKJV) For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Now explain this verse that you seem so fond of. How is this the Trinity again? i.e. breakdown the verse and with context if you wish, to form your truthful conclusion...

 

[David in NJ]

That isn't true. I have said nothing to devalue the Father's will. Why make stuff up?

I never devalued the Son.

You do EVERYTIME you deny His Deity

 

[Scott Downey]

Read it again…..those who “believe” in Jesus as Messiah and Redeemer, even if they die, they will live….but when and how? What did Jesus say?
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.“ (John 5:28-29)

When Jesus said this, he was still alive as a human on earth….and he said the hour was “coming” when the resurrection would take place….he calls all the dead from their tombs……so what happened to all of God’s faithful servants of old…where did they go when they died?
Jesus is the “firstborn from the dead” and no one went to heaven before he did. (Col 1:18; John 3:13) As God’s worshippers, they believed in Sheol as the place where all humans go when they die. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Psalm 115:17) The Hebrew word “sheol” is translated as “the grave”.

Now see what that last statement says….”And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.”

Whoever “lives” and believes in me “will never die”….What is the timing here?

Those who died before the scheduled resurrection of the dead, (and there is a schedule for these things to take place) either of the “first resurrection” or the later resurrection mentioned by Jesus in John 5:28-29, so, they would “sleep in death” (a condition of complete unconsciousness) until it was time to bring the resurrected ones back to life. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Only those who have died can be resurrected…but if those of the elect are still alive when Christ comes as judge, they will not have to die at all……the elect are transformed in an instant….never needing to die.

1 Thess 4:16-17…..(see also 1 Cor 15:51-54)…
“because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.”


Death is the opposite of life…Adam was not told he would go to “heaven of hell”, but back to the dust from which he was created. Solomon said that “the dead know nothing”….they can’t think, plan, or engage in any activity….it doesn’t just say the body, but the person….the soul that lives and breathes, stops breathing and dies. (Ezek 18:4) Even their emotions have perished. (Eccl 9:6) How can love die if the person lives on?

Satan’s first lie was that you don’t really die…..belief in an immortal soul or spirit supports that lie….death would not come to mankind unless they disobeyed….when tempted to disbelieve what God had said, he told them that they could eat the fruit without the penalty of death….but not a single human has avoided the death penalty….since Eden…

They have eternal life, this means they will never die.
Very simple, They are spiritually alive.
Even though their body die, yet they still live.

 

[Aunty Jane]

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

What a biased and disgraceful mistranslation! Added later by a trinitarian, falsifying God’s word.

Mounce Interlinear…”For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”

NASB….”For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

ASV…”And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.“

Since the trinity is a teaching that originated in the Catholic Church, what does it have to say about the spurious rendering of those verses?

The oldest Greek manuscript of the Christian Scriptures is, in the judgment of many, the Vatican Manuscript No. 1209, written in the first half of the fourth century, a copy edited by Cardinal Angelus Maius in 1859, and in which he inserted the Greek words into the Manuscript copy but added a sign of a footnote at the end of the preceding verse. The footnote is in Latin and, translated, reads:

“From here on in the most ancient Vatican codex, which we reproduce in this edition, the reading is as follows: “For there are three that give testimony, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three are for one. If the testimony” etc. There is therefore lacking the celebrated testimony of John concerning the divine three persons, which fact was already long known to critics.”

It is an ancient lie that still holds the biblically uneducated in its grip….we today have so many resources at our fingertips, to expose it for what it is…..so there is no excuse now for ignorance.

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;…
Genesis 1:26

Yes, according to Scripture, God the Father had an assistant, a “master workman” at his side, spoken of in Proverbes 8:30-31…..

“From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth . . . “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. . . . “When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep. . . . Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in the world, His earth,And having my delight in the sons of men.“ (Prov.8: 23, 25-27, 30-31 NASB)

Col 1:15-17 confirms that the son was used by the Father to create all that exists in heaven and on earth.
By means of God’s holy spirit, the son fashioned creation with great love, especially for the sons of men, created in the Father’s image as his firstborn son was created likewise.

An immortal God cannot die, which is why only the son could volunteer to offer his life for ours….truly an act of that great love….and at great cost to both Father and son.

 

[IronMaiden]

Now explain this verse that you seem so fond of. How is this the Trinity again? i.e. breakdown the verse and with context if you wish, to form your truthful conclusion...

Okay.
Isaiah 9:6 (NKJV) For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The Child being born is Jesus, the only begotten Son of God. Jesus‘ names point to Himself and to the full Godhead (the Trinity). The Holy Spirit is our Counselor. The Everlasting Father is God the Father. Jesus is the Prince of Peace.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You do EVERYTIME you deny His Deity

Yes, I deny his deity because it isn't true as I have already explained. A deity doesn't die, bleed, get tired, grow in wisdom, eat lunch, etc. Jesus did all that.

 

[IronMaiden]

Yes, I deny his deity because it isn't true as I have already explained. A deity doesn't die, bleed, get tired, grow in wisdom, eat lunch, etc. Jesus did all that.

…but Is Jesus God?