THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[Scott Downey]

I see "begotten" as functionally equivalent to "spawned," "brought into existence" or "generated." Quaere how that applies to Christ. He is described as the "only begotten" (μονογενής) in order to emphasize His uniqueness -- but I'm looking to separate the μονο and the γενής and only focus on the latter. It has the connotation of "born."

The concept of "eternally begotten" is among the most difficult to understand. If the Father spawned or generated or brought into existence the Son, that suggests activity. And activity suggests an action of the actor. We don't easily grasp an "action" that has always been and that didn't take place in time.

So here we have the Son existing in glory with the Father before the world began (John 17:5). Was "time" even a "thing" before the world existed?

The timing of when Jesus would have been begotten is likely best thought of as the incarnation, as in with Mary as the Christ of God, and His birth, when He brings His firstborn into the world.

The messiah, is recorded as everlasting in Micah 5, old as in ancient of days, from everlasting.

The Coming Messiah​

2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From [a]everlasting.”

Hebrews 1

The Son Exalted Above Angels​

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

 

[Wrangler]

Twinkle in the eye? Then what "glory" did that "twinkle" enjoy with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)?

God’s plan is in place before time existed.

 

[Scott Downey]

I have never thought of the Son as begotten in eternity past as He is without beginning or ending, his going's forth are from everlasting.

John 1:14

The Word Becomes Flesh​

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Begotten as in when become flesh. This their determined plan and purpose from before the foundation of the world, before anyone sinned.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Son Exalted Above Angels​

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?

The idea of the Father and the Son came into reality when He was begotten.
Maybe do not think of Christ as His Son before they created the world. He was simply God, as was the Father and the Spirit, they were all of God.

 

[Ritajanice]

God’s plan is in place before time existed.

Before he brought time into existence?..he’d already made his plan?

 

[Wrangler]

Before he brought time into existence?..he’d already made his plan?

God is outside time. His creation, including his son, our lord, is in time.

 

[Ritajanice]

God is outside time. His creation, including his son, our lord, is in time.

Amen!.that makes sense.thank you.

I never knew that.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus Christ gives a hint about Himself in His own testimony

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

 

[Grailhunter]

Again my question was simple.


Do you believe Jesus Christ is LORD; YHWH the LORD God?


A simple yes or no.


I honestly don’t know where you stand by reading your posts.

Unfortunately the scriptures are not a simple thing….what we know….what we think we know….what we speculate….what kind of labels we use to describe things…..

I think I have made myself very clear on my beliefs regarding Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit….3 full-fledged Gods.

At times the Apostles called Yeshua Lord and Yahweh God…. What did they mean by that? It is possible that they Lord and God to show some undefined distinction. In the Old Testament Lord and God are interchangeable…..

The Tetragrammaton WHWH appeared in reference to Yahweh 6,800….the word God was seldom used and the word Lord how many times….we do not know. But God’s name YHWH was removed 6,800 times and replaced by the words God or Lord 6,800 times.
6,800 modifications to the scriptures…..I hope they burn in Hell for that.

 

[Scott Downey]

"Proceeded Forth"

†ἐξέρχομαι exérchomai, ex-er'-khom-ahee; from G1537 and G2064; to issue (literally or figuratively):—come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad.

G1831 - exerchomai - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv)

G1831 - ἐξέρχομαι exérchomai, ex-er'-khom-ahee; from and ; to issue (literally or figuratively):—come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad.

www.blueletterbible.org

ἐξέρχομαι​

Transliteration
exerchomai (Key)
Pronunciation
ex-er'-khom-ahee

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἐκ (G1537) and ἔρχομαι (G2064)

The KJV translates Strong's G1831 in the following manner: go out (60x), come (34x), depart (28x), go (25x), go forth (25x), come out (23x), come forth (9x),

 

[David in NJ]

I see "begotten" as functionally equivalent to "spawned," "brought into existence" or "generated." Quaere how that applies to Christ. He is described as the "only begotten" (μονογενής) in order to emphasize His uniqueness -- but I'm looking to separate the μονο and the γενής and only focus on the latter. It has the connotation of "born."

The concept of "eternally begotten" is among the most difficult to understand. If the Father spawned or generated or brought into existence the Son, that suggests activity. And activity suggests an action of the actor. We don't easily grasp an "action" that has always been and that didn't take place in time.

So here we have the Son existing in glory with the Father before the world began (John 17:5). Was "time" even a "thing" before the world existed?

There are no scriptures that state: the Son was "eternally" begotten

The only begotten Son of God STRICTLY refers to, the WORD that was God, becoming flesh.
This is the only application permitted by the FATHER and the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

 

[RedFan]

God’s plan is in place before time existed.

No doubt, but the question stands. What "glory" did the Son enjoy with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)?

 

[RLT63]

I think you should describe the difference!

Jhn 1:14 - And the Wordwas made flesh, and dweltamong us, (and we beheldhis glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace andtruth.
Tools

Jhn 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which isin the bosom of the Father,he hath declared him.
Tools

Jhn 3:16 - For God soloved the world, that he gave his only begottenSon, that whosoeverbelieveth in him should notperish, but have everlastinglife.
Tools

Jhn 3:18 - He that believeth on him is notcondemned: but he that believeth not is condemnedalready, because he hathnot believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[RedFan]

Jhn 1:14 - And the Wordwas made flesh, and dweltamong us, (and we beheldhis glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace andtruth.
Tools

Jhn 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which isin the bosom of the Father,he hath declared him.
Tools

Jhn 3:16 - For God soloved the world, that he gave his only begottenSon, that whosoeverbelieveth in him should notperish, but have everlastinglife.
Tools

Jhn 3:18 - He that believeth on him is notcondemned: but he that believeth not is condemnedalready, because he hathnot believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So, what's the difference between "Son" and "begotten Son?" Incarnation? Something else?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Agreed. Because there is no actual trinity verse in Scripture, they must rely on eisegesis; pretend this expression, still in use today to mean people are on the same page, is some kind of mystical reality.

Honestly, I don't understand why everyone is in such an uproar about it. We clearly cannot comprehend many things about our Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit because if we could there wouldn't be so much division about it and this falls on the denominations and their man made doctrines.
I like to simplify things in a way that helps me understand. For example,
Matthew 19 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁵ And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
⁶ Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

How can they become one flesh? It's takes a spiritual mind to understand the things of God. It takes the Spirit of Truth to teach us so that our understanding is no longer reasoned with a carnal mind but with the spiritual mind by where we receive the revelation of it.

It's the same point regarding all of God's Word...it cannot be understood or reasoned in our carnal mind. It just can't because even God hates a carnal mind. For they who worship Him MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth. The carnal mind is enmity against God. Thus the carnal mind will forever lead a person into ignorance.

 

[Ritajanice]

@Wrangler ..what did you say the word was again?

Does it mean that the word had already been spoken by God outside of time..then it came into being..in time?

 

[Ritajanice]

Honestly, I don't understand why everyone is in such an uproar about it. We clearly cannot comprehend many things about our Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit because if we could there wouldn't be so much division about it and this falls on the denominations and their man made doctrines.
I like to simplify things in a way that helps me understand. For example,
Matthew 19 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁵ And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
⁶ Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

How can they become one flesh? It's takes a spiritual mind to understand the things of God. It takes the Spirit of Truth to teach us so that our understanding is no longer reasoned with a carnal mind but with the spiritual mind by where we receive the revelation of it.

It's the same point regarding all of God's Word...it cannot be understood or reasoned in our carnal mind. It just can't because even God hates a carnal mind. For they who worship Him MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth. The carnal mind is enmity against God. Thus the carnal mind will forever lead a person into ignorance.

What a fantastic post..full of spiritual knowledge.imo.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You need to take up your disagreement of the scriptures with the LORD.


For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16

I take issue with your interpretation of that passage, which is biased toward the Trinitarian view. The error in your translation is evident to those who know that the term "Father" indicates or implies the concept of "creator." There can be only one creator. And the creator is the father of all that exists.

Jesus, on the other hand is "son", not "father". Therefore, Paul is not suggesting that Jesus created all things, but that all things were created with Jesus in view. Jesus is the telos, the purpose of creation.

 

[Heart2Soul]

What a fantastic post..full of spiritual knowledge.imo.

Thank you...it came from my spiritual mind...lol.

Well I am bowing out of this thread. It never ceases to become a heavily debated topic and creates a lot strife.

God Bless

 

[CadyandZoe]

I see, so do you believe the Son then was preexistent with the Father at the creation and was the Creator with the Father?

No. That is not a Biblical teaching.