St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Thank you.
Only a person can testify. The Holy Spirit. (third person of the godhead)
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THE Trinity can Now be discussed.
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Only a person can testify. The Holy Spirit. (third person of the godhead)
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Godhead makes no sense to me.
You got it..Amen..the Holy Spirit...he is Gods Living Spirit Of Truth,
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Nevertheless the gloom will not be upon her who is distressed,
As when at first He lightly esteemed
The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
And afterward more heavily oppressed her,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
In Galilee of the Gentiles.
The people who walked in darkness
Have seen a great light;
Those who dwelt in the land of the shadow of death,
Upon them a light has shined.
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
As when at first He lightly esteemed
The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
And afterward more heavily oppressed her,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
In Galilee of the Gentiles.
The people who walked in darkness
Have seen a great light;
Those who dwelt in the land of the shadow of death,
Upon them a light has shined.
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
John 8:57-59 NIV
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself,
slipping away from the temple grounds.
"... they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself,
slipping away from the temple grounds." - vs 59
Obviously, they picked up stones because they understood that
what he said was blasphemy worthy of immediate death.
But Jesus evaded them!
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John 8:57-59 NIV
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself,
slipping away from the temple grounds.
Oh my. See the scripture at the top of this post.
"... they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself,
slipping away from the temple grounds." - vs 59
Obviously, they picked up stones because they understood that
what he said was blasphemy worthy of immediate death.
But Jesus evaded them!
[
Christ is before all things as uncreated. If Christ was created he would be a thing.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [a]principalities or [b]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Simply Christ is, and was, and shall be forever eternal with no genealogy, no father, no mother without beginning without ending he has the power of an endless life, If endless then never ending
to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [a]principalities or [b]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Simply Christ is, and was, and shall be forever eternal with no genealogy, no father, no mother without beginning without ending he has the power of an endless life, If endless then never ending
to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
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Christ was there from the beginning - the beginning of creation. So outside of time. And through Him came the creation. But God the creator only became a Father at that point.
The terms of father, son are for our benefit to to tell us they are family, related, they are God.
Although we are made in His image, so in a way, we are like God, but no we are not God. And God also gave to us life, food, all good things we have come from God. God also gave to us speech, our ability to communicate, to know things and concepts with understanding, our language. Imagine if we were like dumb instinct creatures. God did not want us to be like animals.
God wanted us to be like Him, actually to have fellowship with them, which animals can't.
25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [a]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [a]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Christ the true God
1 John 5
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
1 John 5
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
That indivisible unity between the 3 members of the trinity is intrinsic to Trinitarian belief. If you do not believe in that indivisible unity, a unity that can not be divided and in which no one member can separate from the other 2, then you are not a Trinitarian in the strict sense.
Jesus Is Not God – Bible Verses
Kermit Zarley
Most Christians believe that Jesus was and is God. That is what the institutional church has taught. Christians professedly rely strongly on the Bible for this belief. Yet there is not a single verse in the Bible which states unequivocally, “Jesus is God,” or the like. Moreover, the New Testament (NT) gospels have no statement by Jesus in which he identifies himself as God. In fact, there are many Bible verses which indicate that Jesus cannot be God by declaring that only the Father is God or by distinguishing Jesus from God. Three irrefutable texts in the NT declare both of these points.Jesus Himself Teaches that Only the Father is God
First, and foremost, is one of Jesus’ sayings recorded only in the Gospel of John. The setting is the Last Supper, right before he was arrested and crucified. He prayed for his disciples, saying, “Father,… This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17.3). So, Jesus says of the Father that he is “the only true God” and then distinguishes himself from that one God. Both of these points clearly indicate that Jesus himself cannot also be God.There are two other times the Johannine Jesus identified the Father as the only God. Earlier, he told his Jewish opponents that the Father is “the one and only God” (John 5.44). And again, at the Last Supper, Jesus distinguished himself from this one and only God by commanding his disciples, “believe in God, believe also in Me” (14.1).
Paul Teaches that Only the Father is God
The other two NT passages which irrefutably establish that only the Father is God and distinguish Jesus from God are in Paul’s letters. He writes to the church at Corinth, “There is no God but one…. yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him” (1 Corinthians 8.4, 6). Here, Paul clearly declares that for Christians there is one God, who is the Father, and there is no other God, so that Jesus is not God.Many traditionalist scholars cite this passage to support that Jesus preexisted, thus concluding that he was God. Yet in doing so, they often ignore its double declaration that there is only one God, who is the Father. Even if Jesus did preexist, this does not prove that he was God. Second Temple Judaism regarded that some righteous men preexisted, and Jews did not conclude that such preexistence indicated that they actually were God/gods.
The third irrefutable NT text which establishes that there is God, who is the Father, and distinguishes Jesus from God is in Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. He writes, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all” (Eph 4.4-6). Here, Paul implicitly identifies Jesus Christ as “one Lord” and distinguishes him from the “one God,” whom he unequivocally identifies as “the Father.” Paul is a unique author of NT literature in that he exclusively and consistently calls Jesus “Lord” and the Father “God.” Therefore, he never calls Jesus “God.”
So, these three NT passages—John 17.3; 1 Corinthians 8.4, 6; and Ephesians 4.4-6—establish without any doubt that only the Father is God, so that Jesus cannot be God.
Other Witnesses That Only the Father is God
One of many other NT passages which confirm that Jesus is not God is his encounter with the rich young ruler. This man sincerely asked Jesus, “‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone’” (Mark 10.17-18/Luke 18.18-19; cf. Matthew 19.16-17).Many Christians have been confused by this saying, thinking that Jesus implies that he himself is not good. Yet the NT often declares that Jesus was such a righteous man that he never sinned (Acts 3.14; 2 Corinthians 5.21; Hebrews 4.15; 7.26; 2 Peter 2.22).
Then what did Jesus mean when he said, “no one is good but God alone”? In the OT, Judaism, and especially Hellenistic theism, only the one God was considered “good” in an absolute sense. This must be what Jesus meant in this encounter. Humans were called “good” only in a derived sense, with God being recognized as the Source of goodness.
Many NT passages show that Jesus was not God. For instance, the NT often declares that God sent Jesus, God was with Jesus in his mission, and God raised him from the dead. Peter preached about “Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst” (Acts 2.22). Peter later proclaimed about “Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with Him” (10.38).
In the salutations of all ten of Paul’s NT letters he identifies God as the Father, distinguishes God from Jesus Christ, and he never mentions the Holy Spirit. He typically writes, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” This evidence further affirms that only the Father is God and that Jesus is not God.
Moreover, the Bible contains several verses which state unambiguously that Jesus had a God, and most say his God was the Father. When Jesus hung upon the cross he quoted Psalm 22.1, crying out to the Father, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME” (Matthew 27.46/Mark 15.34). The day Jesus was resurrected, he said to Mary Magdalene, “I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God” (John 20.17). And three times the Apostle Paul writes about “the God and Father of our/the Lord Jesus (Christ)” (Romans 15.6; 2 Corinthians 1.3; 11.31; cf. Ephesians 1.17). Finally, the heavenly Jesus is quoted five times saying “My God” (Revelation 3.2, 12; cf. 1.6).
The Verse that Made Me Think
The one verse that caused this author to first question whether Jesus is God is Jesus’ saying in his Olivet Discourse about the time of his return. He said, “But of that day and/or hour no one knows, not even the angels of/in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24.36/Mark 13.32). Since Jesus did not know the time of his return he could not have been God, for he reveals that God the Father did know it. Orthodox Christian theology has always insisted that God is omniscient, knowing everything, including everything about the future. Accordingly, Jesus could not have been God.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Jesus made reference to his Father in heaven. That would be God the Father.
God the Father made reference to his Son, Jesus. That would be God the Son.
The Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit. That would be God the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 10:32 NIV
“Whoever acknowledges me before others,
I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
Luke 9:35 NIV
A voice came from the cloud, saying,
“This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”
Romans 8:16 NIV
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
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I have not confessed unbelief in the words of God. Saying that "the members of the Church are not Jesus" is not in conflict with verse 30. You have not understood it if you believe that you are literally part of Jesus. Paul wrote in verse 32, "This mystery is great, but I speak concerning Christ and of the assembly". You appear to have misunderstood the mystery. Here's some help - Barnes' Notes on Ephesians 5:30 says:
For we are members of his body - Of the body of Christ; see 1Co_11:3, note; 1Co_12:27, note; Jhn_15:1-6, notes, and Eph_1:23, note. The idea here is, that there is a close and intimate union between the Christian and the Saviour - a union so intimate that they may be spoken of as “one”.
Of his flesh, and of his bones - There is an allusion here evidently to the language which Adam used respecting Eve. “This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh;” Gen_2:23. It is language which is employed to denote the closeness of the marriage relation, and which Paul applies to the connection between Christ and his people. Of course, it cannot be understood “literally.” It is not true literally that our bones are a part of the bones of Christ, or our flesh of his flesh; nor should language ever be used that would imply a miraculous union. It is not a physical union, but a union of attachment; of feeling; of love. If we avoid the notion of a “physical” union, however, it is scarcely possible to use too strong language in describing the union of believers with the Lord Jesus. The Scriptures make use of language which is stronger than that employed to describe any other connection; and there is no union of affection so powerful as that which binds the Christian to the Saviour. So strong is it, that he is willing for it to forsake father, mother, and home; to leave his country, and to abandon his possessions; to go to distant lands and dwell among barbarians to make the Redeemer known; or to go to the cross or the stake from simple love to the Saviour. Account for it as people may, there has been manifested on earth nowhere else so strong an attachment as that which binds the Christian to the cross. It is stronger love that that which a man has for his own flesh and bones; for it makes him willing that his flesh should be consumed by fire, or his bones broken on the wheel rather than deny him. Can the infidel account for this strength of attachment on any other principle than that it has a divine origin?
Note also in Ephesians 5 that Paul says in verse 20, "giving thanks always concerning all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to God, even the Father". Once again emphasising that God is the Father, and the Father only.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
My point in focusing on the indivisibility of the trinity as taught by most churches, is that it of necessity reduces the death of Jesus to a hoax, because if there was yet a part of Him that remained attached to the Godhead, them He didn't really die.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Do not human children inherit the same nature and gene of their parents, and are thus born human? Ought not the only begotten Son of the Father also inherit the "gene" of His Father, and therefore rightly be called God? Did not Jesus say, "the Father has life in Himself, and has given the Son to have life in Himself". Thus the very same unborrowed, immortal, life of God is also found in the Son. The kind of life that can be given to others, hence He described Himself as the fountain of life. None other than the Father can lay claim to that. Not us. Not angels. Only the Father and the Son can give eternal life to others. They do this through the agency of the holy Spirit.
17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of [f]God.
v17, whose will, Father or Son? I say both.
Since we don't define God as the Father only, I can say God is both the Father and the Son. So v21 is reference to both Father and Son, not just Father.
and v20 includes them both as Father and Son
No I did not inherit my mother’s or father’s nature.
I was Born Of my father’s seed.
I am now a partaker Of the divine nature?
We do not have a divine nature , we are partakers Of the divine nature.
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Appreciation of the Mystery
14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father [f]of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man,17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
For to be filled with the fullness of God, is found in the love of Christ. Christ is to dwell in your heart, only then will you know God in all fullness
Otherwise you wont know the Father, and the Father won't know you
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