THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[David in NJ]

So is this the thesis now?

Humans beget themselves.
Dogs beget themselves.
God begets Himself.

If so, I'm excited about the ontological prospect of begetting myself! Move over Dolly; my clone is coming!

Mocking only leaves you locked-out of understanding.

 

[RedFan]

Mocking only leaves you locked-out of understanding.

My sarcasm expresses my disagreement. (I am a Trinitarian. But I cringe at silly arguments for Trinitarianism.)

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father

Proving Jesus is NOT God but a created, begotten Being.

 

[David in NJ]

My sarcasm expresses my disagreement. (I am a Trinitarian. But I cringe at silly arguments for Trinitarianism.)

You mocked FACTUAL TRUTH found coming from the Mouth of God = ONLY begotten SON versus the SON creating ALL things

Can you understand this???

 

[David in NJ]

Proving Jesus is NOT God but a created, begotten Being.

By your words you prove yourself as unworthy of the Kingdom of God

The only begotten Son of God is referring to how God came to earth as a man = Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Reproduction analogies aren’t applicable in Jewish monotheism.

Jewish monotheism is a false doctrine and those who hold to it were and are responsible for murdering the Son of God.

Acts 3:15
But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and killed the Prince of life,
whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

Acts 7:51-53
“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?
And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One,
of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Don't be stiff-necked like the unbelieving monotheistic Jews.
Repent from resisting the Holy Spirit

 

[RedFan]

You mocked FACTUAL TRUTH found coming from the Mouth of God = ONLY begotten SON versus the SON creating ALL things

Can you understand this???

I cannot. While I agree that the Son is God, I just don't see it as "factual truth" that a "begotten" son of God MUST, AS A MATTER OF LOGICAL NECESSITY, be God too. I see it as poor logic. Extremely poor. Laughably poor. Like saying the world is round because the sky is blue. (Is the world round? Sure. Is it round BECAUSE the sky is blue? No. Is the Son God? Sure. Is the Son God BECAUSE He is the only "begotten" Son of the Father. No.)

That's what we are discussing, right? We are not discussing the Son of God as the creative agent of God (with which I and probably most of us agree). So let's stay on point, and put aside the creative work of the Son, which is non-controversial.

 

[David in NJ]

I cannot. While I agree that the Son is God, I just don't see it as "factual truth" that a "begotten" son of God MUST, AS A MATTER OF LOGICAL NECESSITY, be God too. I see it as poor logic. Extremely poor. Laughably poor. Like saying the world is round because the sky is blue. (Is the world round? Sure. Is it round BECAUSE the sky is blue? No. Is the Son God? Sure. Is the Son God BECAUSE He is the only "begotten" Son of the Father. No.)

That's what we are discussing, right? We are not discussing the Son of God as the creative agent of God (with which I and probably most of us agree). So let's stay on point, and put aside the creative work of the Son, which is non-controversial.

The only thing that you are showing is that you are relying on fallen limited human logic = one which mocks God's words

This leaves you, by your own volition, in God's foolish category = 1 Cor 3:19

Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”;
and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” Therefore let no one boast in men.

 

[RedFan]

The only thing that you are showing is that you are relying on fallen limited human logic = one which mocks God's words

This leaves you, by your own volition, in God's foolish category = 1 Cor 3:19

Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”;
and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” Therefore let no one boast in men.

I'm not mocking God's words at all. Scripture tells us of God's only begotten Son, and I accept it without reservation. Scripture tells us the Son is God (in some verses at least). I accept that too. Scripture NEVER declares that BECAUSE the Son is the only begotten of the Father, therefore the Son is God too. Nowhere is that mentioned in Scripture. It is mentioned on this thread in Post #1896 and 1899 -- but not in Scripture. (No surprise here. God is not foolish. His Word doesn't trumpet logical fallacies, like those two posts.)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Once the gentiles were admitted to the Christian faith, they became monotheists with no need to call the one God ho theos in order to distinguish him from other gods in which they no longer believed.

Christianity was a shared faith….evangelizing was a very important part of being a Christian….preaching is how it was spread, as Paul said….quoting Joel 2:32 he said….in Romans 10:13-15..…

“For “everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth?”….

Paul did not rewrite Joel’s quote….in the Hebrew text YHWH is identified as the name we are to call on for salvation.….not a nameless “Lord”.

John 17:26…Jesus said to his Father….“I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”

Jesus said he had come to make his Father’s name known…..the Father has only one name.
Jews and gentiles alike had to get to know “the only true God AND the one he sent”….(John 17:3)

The Lord’s Prayer….”hallowed be thy name”..…First priority in our own prayers….God’s name was an important part of his identity….it singled him out as different in the polytheistic societies in which the Jews found themselves.

 

[David in NJ]

I'm not mocking God's words at all. Scripture tells us of God's only begotten Son, and I accept it without reservation. Scripture tells us the Son is God (in some verses at least). I accept that too. Scripture NEVER declares that BECAUSE the Son is the only begotten of the Father, therefore the Son is God too. Nowhere is that mentioned in Scripture. It is mentioned on this thread in Post #1896 and 1899 -- but not in Scripture. (No surprise here. God is not foolish. His Word doesn't trumpet logical fallacies, like those two posts.)

Dear @RedFan,

i am not against you = God/JESUS/TRUTH is for us

Scripture NEVER declares that BECAUSE the Son is the only begotten of the Father, therefore the Son is God too.

You mentioned 'logic' AND this statement of yours is ILLOGICAL when compared to the TRUTH in Scripture on who the Word is and became.

When is ALL of Scripture has Luke 1:35 ever occurred more then ONCE???

i love logic = God's Logic

Here is God's Logic = Isaiah 45:22-23

“Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.


SHALOM Brother

 

[David in NJ]

The Trinity doctrine is standard in Christian theology. It has been since the early church codified it.
It is strange to be on a topic where Christians claim it to be untrue, as if it is some new idea.


Trinitarians have presented plenty of biblical support. Not really fair to claim the Trinity has no biblical basis. (pet peeve of mine)

There is biblical support for all three views.
I don't think we should claim that the views of others are not biblical simply because we happen to disagree.

[

Many adapt themselves to 'christian' religion.

It does not necessarily mean that they know Christ or have the Holy Spirit - even if they profess the name of Jesus

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. As such HE will never speak anything but Truth.
The Truth found in the Holy Scriptures = every word of it!!!

 

[Aunty Jane]

The only thing that you are showing is that you are relying on fallen limited human logic = one which mocks God's words

Those accusing others of mocking God’s words can also be misled. What if it’s you who are actually doing the mocking by promoting a doctrine that Jesus never once directly mentioned.

This leaves you, by your own volition, in God's foolish category = 1 Cor 3:19

You think this can’t apply to yourself?
When Jesus comes as judge, he will be the one who determines who is correct, because we can’t all be…
you can quote all the scripture you like…..but it’s how you interpret them that counts. Bias in translation is not a new phenomenon.

Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”;
and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” Therefore let no one boast in men.

Again, how upsetting will it be if we find ourselves among the goats who thought they were sheep? (Matt 7:21-23)
In Jesus day, the ones accusing others of heresy, were themselves the biggest heretics. History repeats, right under our noses.

 

[David in NJ]

Those accusing others of mocking God’s words can also be misled. What if it’s you who are actually doing the mocking by promoting a doctrine that Jesus never once directly mentioned.

You think this can’t apply to yourself?
When Jesus comes as judge, he will be the one who determines who is correct, because we can’t all be…
you can quote all the scripture you like…..but it’s how you interpret them that counts. Bias in translation is not a new phenomenon.

Again, how upsetting will it be if we find ourselves among the goats who thought they were sheep? (Matt 7:21-23)
In Jesus day, the ones accusing others of heresy, were themselves the biggest heretics. History repeats, right under our noses.

What if it’s you who are actually doing the mocking by promoting a doctrine that Jesus never once directly mentioned.

OK auntjane - go for it - bring forth "Jesus never once directly mentioned."

 

[Ritajanice]

This is more jw false doctrine and is not from the Holy Spirit of Truth

And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7“Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

No David,God says we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God.

Once again all you are doing David is taking scripture verses completely out of context, and giving me no living testimony, you are once again reading yourself through scripture.

You haven’t answered one of my Spirit questions, then because you have no understanding of a living testimony you then start accusing me of being a JW..

 

[Ritajanice]

Many adapt themselves to 'christian' religion.

It does not necessarily mean that they know Christ or have the Holy Spirit - even if they profess the name of Jesus

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. As such HE will never speak anything but Truth.
The Truth found in the Holy Scriptures = every word of it!!!

How do you know of Jesus , David?

How do you know that God exists, you still haven’t answered the questions I asked of you.

The Bible is not Gods Living Spirit, how would I know that David?

Why must our spirit be reborn , David?

 

[Ritajanice]

More jw false doctrine

Prove it then David, by whose Living witness do you know that you are Born Of The Spirit ?

Flesh gives birth to flesh.

Spirit gives birth to spirit..you think you can read that into being ,do you David..by you posting out of context scripture ..,what does Born Again even mean David?

Isn’t Born Of The Spirit a Living spiritual birth , David?

That’s why I don’t believe one word you say about the trinity’ because you have yet to understand what it means to become Born Of The Spirit.

I rebuke all of your claims accusing me of being a JW, in Jesus Name, Amen.

 

[David in NJ]

No. That's absurd, and it only makes sense to you because you believe that God is three seperate beings.

Deuteronomy 6:4
WEB:

(4) Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God. Yahweh is one.​

MKJV:

(4) Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.​

LSV:

(4) Hear, O Israel: Our God YHWH—YHWH [is] one!​

God's son, not "the SON". God's son is not God! You are not your father or your mother! Can't you understand how silly and illogical it is to claim that God's son is God?!


Well indeed! God is a spirit, God is holy, and God's spirit is therefore holy. The Holy Spirit is just God doing things, whether is is making things happen or whether it's abiding with us. It's the influence or action of God. It is not a seperate being, seperate from God. So to answer your question, the "Holy Spirit" is subjected to God.

The Hebrew word for "one" in the Shema is 'echad'

Echad is used when 'one' is a plurality that acts as ONE UNIT

The Shema is more evidence of the Plurality of Elohim that includes the Son who is LORD

JESUS said this over and over again in His Gospel = "I and My Father are One"

 

[Ritajanice]

The Hebrew word for "one" in the Shema is 'echad'

Echad is used when 'one' is a plurality that acts as ONE UNIT

The Shema is more evidence of the Plurality of Elohim that includes the Son who is LORD

JESUS said this over and over again in His Gospel = "I and My Father are One"

Why would we listen to you David, when you don’t even understand what it means to be Born Of The Spirit?

You accuse some of us beating false testimony, how about you David, I’m still waiting to hear your living testimony of how you became Born Of The Spirit, by whose witness?

How can anyone believe what you post, with no understanding of what it means to be Born Of The Spirit...your understanding of the trinity is skewed..reason being no living testimony..just out of context skewed scripture.

By the way, prove that I’m a JW, by using scripture my friend?

 

[David in NJ]

How do you know of Jesus , David?

How do you know that God exists, you still haven’t answered the questions I asked of you.

The Bible is not Gods Living Spirit, how would I know that David?

Why must our spirit be reborn , David?

i was raised RCC and at the age of 23 God called me out of the Harlot and chose me to belong to Him.
The FATHER, of His Good Pleasure, brought me to Christ.

When HE brought me to Christ i was overwhelmed of my sin and shame as His Word reveled the TRUTH of His Holiness and Purity.
But HE did not leave me like that, for HE poured out His Grace and covered all my sins.
GREAT JOY filled me to overflowing as HE placed me in Christ.

A few months later the Lord Baptized me in the Holy Spirit, which again left me on the floor because of the POWER that was flowing down from Heaven Above.

This LOVE of God in Christ and the Holy Spirit cannot fully be expressed in human words, other then being FILLED with Peace and Great JOY.
HE gave me great desire to know Christ and to read and FEED and be Nourished in the Holy Scriptures.
Reading and praying and reading and praying in my room, on my knees before my Savior.

That was 40 years ago and as i get older i long for the day HE takes me Home to SEE Him who died for me on that Tree on Calvary.
By the Precious Blood of Christ and His Holy Spirit i am His saint, His elect, His little stone in His Temple of Radiant Glory.
No one ever imagined that God would save such a sinner as David, but HE did - HalleluYAH

In His Great Mercy HE brought to me a wife, who i was praying for though i did not know her previously until the day we met.
My wife received Adonai Yeshua HaMashiach, her MESSIAH and Alison became a FULFILLED Jew under the Brit Chadashah.
Love the Lord God with all your heart mind soul and strength for there is no other Way then the LORD Jesus Christ.

No one comes to the FATHER but thru JESUS.

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true,
and we are in Him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. ”
1 John 5:20 KJV

 

[Ritajanice]

What do you make of this?

John 12:24 NIV
Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies,
it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

Basically, a seed is only effective when it dies.

[

I’m talking of being Born Of The Spirit, our spirit is reborn, what happens when that Living seed comes forth out of Gods mouth ?...or who testifies to our spirit that we are reborn..?