The Covenants of Israel

[grafted branch]

That's the exact opposite of what this passage says!

35 This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD Almighty is his name:

36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the LORD, “will Israel cease being a nation before me.”

Of course, only if these decrees vanish, which can never happen, then will Israel cease being a nation. God's decrees can never vanish. These are the decrees that the Trinity decided upon before they created the universe. The nation of Israel is the recipients of many of these decrees. Also, the nation of Israel will never cease being a nation. Remember, God made unconditional, eternal promises to the nation, the Abrahamic covenant is one eternal covenant that God can not bring it to an end. The same with the Land (Palestinian) Covenant, which is also an everlasting covenant, and of course there is the New Covenant and the Davidic Covenant which likewise is called eternal covenants.

The Church or Bride of Christ never ceases to be His Bride. For all eternity, we will be the bride of Christ. For all eternity, Israel will be a chosen nation.

In Isaiah 60:20 the sun and moon are not obeying the decree given in Genesis 1:14. If the decree never vanishes from before God, then we have a new heaven new earth where the created objects are disobedient.

What other verses show disobedience in the new heaven new earth?

 

[grafted branch]

The seed of Israel ceased from being a nation before God multiple times throughout its history, on the occasions when God Himself evicted and exiled it for apathy, pride, unfaithfulness, disobedience, and rebellion.

So that is not the seed of Israel to which Jeremiah is referring.

There is only one seed of Israel that has never ceased, and will never cease, to be a nation before God; and that is His faithful obedient elect remnant (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27; Romans 11:5), also known as His Church.

Peter describes the Church of God as a Holy Nation (1 Peter 2:5,9).

The continuity of the Church of God is as assured and immutable as the continuity of God's celestial and terrestrial ordinances.

It will never cease to be a Nation before Him.

Well, I do agree that Jeremiah 31:35-36 is referring to the single seed Christ (Galatians 3:16) but the Jeremiah 31:36 promise was also fulfilled when Christ was forever cast off from God in the sense that He became sin for us. The penalty or wages for sin is death, the second death, which is eternal separation from God. Christ satisfied the eternal separation at the cross, in three days.

I see the promise of Jeremiah 31:36 being fulfilled, as 2 Corinthians 1:20 says, For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

If you don’t see the Jeremiah 31:35-36 promise ever getting fulfilled then how do you explain Isaiah 60:20 where the sun and moon do not obey the ordinances?

 

[covenantee]

Well, I do agree that Jeremiah 31:35-36 is referring to the single seed Christ (Galatians 3:16) but the Jeremiah 31:36 promise was also fulfilled when Christ was forever cast off from God in the sense that He became sin for us. The penalty or wages for sin is death, the second death, which is eternal separation from God. Christ satisfied the eternal separation at the cross, in three days.

I see the promise of Jeremiah 31:36 being fulfilled, as 2 Corinthians 1:20 says, For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

If you don’t see the Jeremiah 31:35-36 promise ever getting fulfilled then how do you explain Isaiah 60:20 where the sun and moon do not obey the ordinances?

Jeremiah 31:35-36 has been continuously fulfilled ever since the birth of the physical seed of Israel, for it is referring to the spiritual seed of Israel, i.e. the faithful obedient elect remnant within the physical seed, which God has always reserved for Himself (Romans 11:1-5).

It is the spiritual seed of Israel which has never ceased to be a nation before God, even through the multiple exiles when the physical seed of Israel ceased to be a nation.

 

[GodsGrace]

A definition of covenants

A divine covenant is (1) a disposition of God, whereby he establishes an unconditional or declarative compact with man, obligating himself, in grace, by the formula, “I WILL,” to bring to pass of himself definite blessings for the covenanted ones, or (2) a proposal of God, wherein he promises, in a conditional or mutual compact with man, by the contingent formula “IF YE WILL,” to grant special blessings to man provided he fulfills perfectly certain conditions, and to execute definite punishment in case of his failure

What are the two kinds of covenants:

The kinds of covenants. There are two kinds of covenants into which God entered with Israel: conditional and unconditional. In a conditional covenant that which was covenanted depends for its fulfillment upon the recipient of the covenant, not upon the one making the covenant. Certain obligations or conditions must be fulfilled by the receiver of the covenant before the giver of the covenant is obligated to fulfill that which was promised. It is a covenant with an “if” attached to it. The Mosaic covenant made by God with Israel is such a covenant. In an unconditional covenant that which was covenanted depends upon the one making the covenant alone for its fulfillment. That which was promised is given to the recipient of the covenant on the authority and integrity of the one making the covenant apart from the merit or response of the receiver. It is a covenant with no “if” attached to it whatsoever.

In Scripture there are 4 unconditional covenants, and one conditional (the Mosaic Law).

As opposed to Biblical Covenants, the Covenant Theology people have invented three covenants:
The theological terms, Covenant of Works and Covenant of Grace (and the Redemptive Covenant), do not occur in the Sacred Text. If they are to be sustained it must be wholly apart from Biblical authority…Upon this human invention of two covenants Reformed Theology has largely been constructed.

All of Israel’s covenants are called eternal except the Mosaic covenant which is declared to be temporal, i.e., it was to continue only until the coming of the Promised Seed. For this detail see as follows: (1) The Abrahamic Covenant is called“eternal” in Genesis 17:7, 13, 19; I Chronicles 16:17; Psalm 105:10; (2) The Palestinian Covenant is called “eternal” in Ezekiel 16:60; (3) The Davidic Covenant is called “eternal” in II Samuel 23:5; Isaiah 55:3; and Ezekiel 37:25; and (4) The New Covenant is called “eternal” in Isaiah 24:5; 61:8; Jeremiah 32:40; 50:5; and Hebrews 13:20.

More to come...

Very good thread.

Just 2 comments and I'll be reading along....

1. There are more than 5 Covenants
God even made more than 1 Covenant with Abraham.

2. You're right about a denomination that has given its own titles to Covenants...that would be the reformed denomination.
There's no such Covenant titled Covenant of Grace.

 

[covenantee]

Very good thread.

Just 2 comments and I'll be reading along....

1. There are more than 5 Covenants
God even made more than 1 Covenant with Abraham.

2. You're right about a denomination that has given its own titles to Covenants...that would be the reformed denomination.
There's no such Covenant titled Covenant of Grace.

There's no such word "Trinity".

There's no such word "rapture".

Is there grace in the New Covenant? Obviously.

So the New Covenant is one of the covenants in the Covenant of Grace.

 

[GodsGrace]

There's no such word "Trinity".

There's no such word "rapture".

Is there grace in the New Covenant? Obviously.

So the New Covenant is one of the covenants in the Covenant of Grace.

You must be of the reformed persuasion.

There not being the word TRINITY or RAPTURE in the NT has nothing to do with my statement.

Grace is throughout the bible and not only in the Covenants.

So, again.....in the study of the bible, there is no such covenant called The Covenant of Grace.
It DOES NOT exist.

ONLY the reformed denomination has wished to call it the Covenant of Grace.

This is a fact.
You don't have to accept it.

And you really shouldn't even reply because I'm not posting here to start an argument.
You can believe as you wish.

 

[covenantee]

There not being the word TRINITY or RAPTURE in the NT has nothing to do with my statement.

It has everything to do with your statement, because as the expression "Covenant of Grace" is not found explicitly in Scripture, neither are "Trinity" and "rapture" found explicitly in Scripture.

Grace is throughout the bible and not only in the Covenants.

No one has claimed that grace is only in the Covenants.

So, again.....in the study of the bible, there is no such covenant called The Covenant of Grace.
It DOES NOT exist.

Nor in the Bible do the words "Trinity" and "rapture" exist.

ONLY the reformed denomination has wished to call it the Covenant of Grace.

Only dispensationalism began calling it "rapture".

This is a fact.

So are the absence of "Trinity" and "rapture" in Scripture.

And you really shouldn't even reply because I'm not posting here to start an argument.

This is a public forum with full conversational privileges of reply and posting available to everyone. Conversation does not mean argument.

 

[GodsGrace]

It has everything to do with your statement, because as the expression "Covenant of Grace" is not found explicitly in Scripture, neither are "Trinity" and "rapture" found explicitly in Scripture.

The hypostatic union is not referred to in scripture either.
But we're not talking about this....

My statement was that there are more than 5 Covenants AND that NONE is named the Covenant of Grace.
NO theologian will name ANY Covenant The Covenant of Grace EXCEPT reformed theogogians, who, as usual, have an understanding all thier own. I'm not even saying I don't agree with it....I don't even KNOW WHAT IT IS.

These are the Covenants I've taught:
Edenic Covenant
Adamic Covenant
Noahic Covenant
Abrahamic Covenant (general...but there are 3)
Mosaic Covenant
Palestinian Covenant
Davidic Covenant
New Covenant

This is the list ALL theologians use EXCEPT for the reformed.
Is there a Covenant there called The Covenant of Grace?
NO.

Now, I'm sure academics, of which I'm not one, will understand to which Covenant you're referring...
and I can guess that you mean The New Covenant....
but
it's called the New Covenant and NOT the Covenant of Grace.

Jeremiah 31:34
I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT.....

Matthew 15:24
THIS IS MY BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT....

Not only are the words NEW COVENANT found in scripture....
NOWHERE are the words the Covenant of Grace found because this TITLE does not exist.
As I've stated from the beginning,,,ONLY the reformed give a covenant this title.

No one has claimed that grace is only in the Covenants.

Nor in the Bible do the words "Trinity" and "rapture" exist.

Only dispensationalism began calling it "rapture".

So are the absence of "Trinity" and "rapture" in Scripture.

Answered above.

This is a public forum with full conversational privileges of reply and posting available to everyone. Conversation does not mean argument.

Well, it sure sounds like you want to argue....
but I could be wrong.

 

[covenantee]

The hypostatic union is not referred to in scripture either.
But we're not talking about this....

My statement was that there are more than 5 Covenants AND that NONE is named the Covenant of Grace.
NO theologian will name ANY Covenant The Covenant of Grace EXCEPT reformed theogogians, who, as usual, have an understanding all thier own. I'm not even saying I don't agree with it....I don't even KNOW WHAT IT IS.

These are the Covenants I've taught:
Edenic Covenant
Adamic Covenant
Noahic Covenant
Abrahamic Covenant (general...but there are 3)
Mosaic Covenant
Palestinian Covenant
Davidic Covenant
New Covenant

This is the list ALL theologians use EXCEPT for the reformed.
Is there a Covenant there called The Covenant of Grace?
NO.

Now, I'm sure academics, of which I'm not one, will understand to which Covenant you're referring...
and I can guess that you mean The New Covenant....
but
it's called the New Covenant and NOT the Covenant of Grace.

Jeremiah 31:34
I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT.....

Matthew 15:24
THIS IS MY BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT....

Not only are the words NEW COVENANT found in scripture....
NOWHERE are the words the Covenant of Grace found because this TITLE does not exist.
As I've stated from the beginning,,,ONLY the reformed give a covenant this title.



Answered above.


Well, it sure sounds like you want to argue....
but I could be wrong.

Answered previously.

 

[GodsGrace]

Answered previously.

This is your reply to my post 28?
But I thought you wanted to have a conversation?

No problem.
Just let's make sure we understand that there's NO COVENANT called the Covenant of Grace
EXCEPT in reformed circles.

It's proper name is:
THE NEW COVENANT.

 

[covenantee]

This is your reply to my post 28?
But I thought you wanted to have a conversation?

No problem.
Just let's make sure we understand that there's NO COVENANT called the Covenant of Grace
EXCEPT in reformed circles.

It's proper name is:
THE NEW COVENANT.

Let's make sure that there's NO TRINITY and NO RAPTURE.

They're not in the Bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

Let's make sure that there's NO TRINITY and NO RAPTURE.

They're not in the Bible.

zzzzzzzzzzz

Well, actually, the rapture IS NOT in the bible.
But I think our "conversation" is over.

 

[covenantee]

zzzzzzzzzzz

Well, actually, the rapture IS NOT in the bible.
But I think our "conversation" is over.

Yes, RAPTURE is not in the Bible. That's what I said.

Neither is TRINITY in the Bible.

So you'd better not believe either of those.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, RAPTURE is not in the Bible. That's what I said.

Neither is TRINITY in the Bible.

So you'd better not believe either of those.

Well C,,,we agree on something.
Good.

Since we can agree that there's no rapture in scripture....
MAYBE one day you'll understand the Trinity.
It's not that difficult and there's maybe some mystery to it,
but not much.

When are you getting rid of that dumb Prime Minister you have?

 

[covenantee]

Well C,,,we agree on something.
Good.

Since we can agree that there's no rapture in scripture....
MAYBE one day you'll understand the Trinity.
It's not that difficult and there's maybe some mystery to it,
but not much.

When are you getting rid of that dumb Prime Minister you have?

If there's mystery to it, who understands the mystery?

His time is coming.

 

[GodsGrace]

If there's mystery to it, who understands the mystery?

Insomuch as we can't understand everything about God perfectly....we can say that it's somewhat of a mystery.
But it can be understood...it's not a total mystery that is incomprehensible.

His time is coming.

Good!
These people are crazy...
and they're all over.

 

[covenantee]

Insomuch as we can't understand everything about God perfectly....we can say that it's somewhat of a mystery.
But it can be understood...it's not a total mystery that is incomprehensible.


Good!
These people are crazy...
and they're all over.

If you understand the mystery, then please explain it to the rest of us.

No one else has been able to understand and explain it.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you understand the mystery, then please explain it to the rest of us.

No one else has been able to understand and explain it.

Of course, you're being sarcastic.
This could be done in either of 2 methods....I'm not going to do either.

1. Explain the Trinity
2. Show how Jesus is God from scripture.

The early fathers of the church...the Apostolic Fathers, the early theologians pondered this for a couple of hundred years and refined what it means.

But it was believed that Jesus was God from the beginning.

 

[Behold]

Yes, RAPTURE is not in the Bible. That's what I said.

Neither is TRINITY in the Bible.

So you'd better not believe either of those.

Tesla is also not in the bible, and neither is Texas or Catholic.

So, what is your point?

Do you only believe something if it has the literal word in the Bible?

 

[KUWN]

zzzzzzzzzzz

Well, actually, the rapture IS NOT in the bible.
But I think our "conversation" is over.

I have a post on this site where I show members the word Rapture in the Bible.