Freed : From Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Pont.

[ElectedbyHim]

The above sounds like John Calvin.
Do you have the source?
His second paragraph is correct...see from the middle down. (of the 2nd PP)
but he still ends up with the idea that no man should attribute any event to fortune, or to any other cause..
(last sentence).

It is Calvin.

I just saw the source is not there.

All the commentators say the same thing.

Many take that verse to say the God created evil.

But, that is not so.

He permits, controls and uses evil and sin.

On a side note, I just started reading Calvins commentaries about a month ago.

 

[ProDeo]

Pro,,,your understanding does not fit well with Calvinism...
However,,,it is the CORRECT understanding.

Romans is speaking of situations such as the golden calf builders in the desert at Sinai.
God can CHOOSE to NOT HAVE MERCY on these vessels of wrath....they indeed were vessels of wrath.

But not because God predestinated that this golden calf be built by them from the beginning of time, but because they CHOSE not to honor God and complain about their situation and go back to idols like the Egyptians also worshipped.

Think of how illogical Calvinism is:
God predestinated the Israelites to form the golden calf and worhship it because, according to the reformed, God predestinated everything...

Then God punishes them by making them vessels of wrath because they DID WHAT HE PREDESTINED THEM TO DO!!

It's beyond any reasonable understanding.

Yes, that's my understanding as well, thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is Calvin.

I just saw the source is not there.

All the commentators say the same thing.

Many take that verse to say the God created evil.

But, that is not so.

He permits, controls and uses evil and sin.

On a side note, I just started reading Calvins commentaries about a month ago.

You should spend your time reading his 4 book series instead.
Or maybe that's what you mean.
The Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin

Sometimes his commentaries or sermons sound good.
But you have to look behind what he's saying to really understand.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

You should spend your time reading his 4 book series instead.
Or maybe that's what you mean.
The Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin

Sometimes his commentaries or sermons sound good.
But you have to look behind what he's saying to really understand.

I read so many differed commentaries, systematic and biblical theology books my head hurts.

I will dive into the institutes soon enough.

 

[Bladerunner]

While I was in another discussion, I would like to take a moment here to point out that, in this context, the idea is not so much that God creates evil as that he creates adversity. God is the author of all events, both prosperous and and adverse. Based on the context of the verse itself, "Evil", if it was meant to be understood as wickedness, would not have been contrasted with "peace", but instead the verse would read "making righteousness and creating evil". But that is not the intention of the passage. What it refers to is a contrast between "peace" (pleasant events and happenings) and evil (unpleasant and adverse events and happenings.) God is not the author of evil, not in the primary sense. While it is true that God allows or permits wickedness, and even uses men as instruments to display His own wrath and judgement, He himself is not the author of evil. If God uses a man, whose heart truly desires hatred and evil, to further His own cause, did God then MAKE this man do what he did? Or rather, did he simply use the inclinations of this man's own heart to further His own causes? It is very true that God is the author of all events that come to pass, and that he even makes use of men, good or evil, to bless or chastise his people. But wickedness does not find it's origin with God.
At least, this is my opinion on the matter! Feel free to take it as you will!
Have a blessed day!

One can say He creates many things that has to do with Evil (I.e. catastrophe, disaster, Apocoplypse etc.) but we cannot get away from God's WORD and the fact that HE said He created Evil...It just did not appear one day.

 

[Bladerunner]

Isaiah 45:7​

7.Forming light. As if he had said, that they who formerly were wont to ascribe everything either to fortune or to idols shall acknowledge the true God, so as to ascribe power and the government and glory of all things, to him alone. He does not speak of perfect knowledge, though this intelligence is requisite for the attainment of it. But since the Prophet says that it shall be manifest even to heathens, that everything is directed and governed by the will of God, they who bear the Christian name ought to be ashamed, when they strip him of his power, and bestow it on various governors, whom they have formed according to their fancy, as we see done in Popery; for God is not acknowledged when a bare and empty name is given to him, but when we ascribe to him full authority.

Making peace, and creating evil. By the words “light” and “darkness” he describes metaphorically not only peace and war; but adverse and prosperous events of any kind; and he extends the word peace, according to the custom of Hebrew writers, to all success and prosperity. This is made abundantly clear by the contrast; for he contrasts “peace” not only with war, but with adverse events of every sort. Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts “peace” with “evil,” that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted “righteousness” with “evil,” there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other. Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the “evil” of punishment, but not of the “evil” of guilt.

But the Sophists are wrong in their exposition; for, while they acknowledge that famine, barrenness, war, pestilence, and other scourges, come from God, they deny that God is the author of calamities, when they befall us through the agency of men. This is false and altogether contrary to the present doctrine; for the Lord raises up wicked men to chastise us by their hand, as is evident from various passages of Scripture. (1Kg_11:14.) The Lord does not indeed inspire them with malice, but he uses it for the purpose of chastising us, and exercises the office of a judge, in the same manner as he made use of the malice of Pharaoh and others, in order to punish his people. (Exo_1:11 and Exo_2:23.) We ought therefore to hold this doctrine, that God alone is the author of all events; that is, that adverse and prosperous events are sent by him, even though he makes use of the agency of men, that none may attribute it to fortune, or to any other cause.

While God may have created evil, it is man's evil within that created the calamities..As in the Assyrian brutal conquest over northern Israel, never to be seen again, all God had to do is remove the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) from their hearts and they did the rest. From the beginning, they wanted to take over that nation that bragged their God would protect them....They could not wait and God allowed it to happen and then punished them for doing it. They were in His words, Instruments of His Wrath.

 

[Ritajanice]

@Ronald Nolette ...as you know a Born Again who was chosen and predestined to become Born Again can never reject God ,as it was his will that we became Born Again via His Holy Spirit.unfortunately those who believe they have freewill, reject this as they believe it would mean that God forces his will onto us......I really don’t understand this reject business, there is nowhere in the Bible that says a Born Again can reject the Holy Spirit.plus nowhere where one has freewill to become Born Again...

Some seem to take scripture out of context and make it say what they want it to say.

They don’t seem to understand what this means either ( some)..no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit...only he can give testimony to our hearts/ spirit who Jesus was...

Reason being to have any relationship with God via his Holy Spirit our spirit must be reborn.
We must have the permanent dwelling of the Holy Spirit in our spirit, he’s at work in our heart the moment our spirit is reborn...pretty mind blowing stuff, to be a child of God...that comes by = supernatural divine heart revelation.
So not sure how one can reject the Holy Spirit...?

 

[GodsGrace]

While God may have created evil, it is man's evil within that created the calamities..As in the Assyrian brutal conquest over northern Israel, never to be seen again, all God had to do is remove the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) from their hearts and they did the rest. From the beginning, they wanted to take over that nation that bragged their God would protect them....They could not wait and God allowed it to happen and then punished them for doing it. They were in His words, Instruments of His Wrath.

But your verse states that GOD creates calamity....!

Are you going back on your very verse and how YOU explained it??

And are you going to ever reply to my post no. 430?

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank ytou . I go for a follow up in 90 days to know if they killed all the cancer.

I do have an abdominal surgery coming up in Jan. or February as well. That will be surgery #14. I feel like a bologna sometimes in a deli!

I hate to say this but feel I must:

How does it feel to know that God predestined all these operations for you?
How does it feel for a reformed girl to be raped and know that God predestined it for her?
How does it feel for a parent to have 2 children and they don't get saved because God does not wish for them to be saved?

HOW to you explain a Calvinist God RN?

BTW,,,I've had some operations myself....so I know what I'm speaking of.
I just don't blame God for them.....
In fact, I find comfort in Him.
Perhaps the only comfort we have in this life.

 

[GodsGrace]

I read so many differed commentaries, systematic and biblical theology books my head hurts.

I will dive into the institutes soon enough.

I don't read much anymore.
If you read one of the Confession, it's pretty much the same.
Try the Westminster Confession. You could find it online in both the original and modern language.
The Institutes....try reading Book 3. The more you read, the worse it gets.
It's a mystery to me how anyone could worship such a God.

 

[Mjh29]

One can say He creates many things that has to do with Evil (I.e. catastrophe, disaster, Apocoplypse etc.) but we cannot get away from God's WORD and the fact that HE said He created Evil...It just did not appear one day.

Hello friend!

The point I was trying to make (perhaps I was not clear with my explanation) is, simply put, that is not what this verse is saying. It may appear that way on the surface, but that is more due to a lack of proper English wording than it is anything else. If you would, allow me to elaborate.

Psalm 5:4: "For you are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; evil cannot dwell with you."

1 John 1:5: "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Psalm 92:15 " To declare that the Lord my rock is righteous, and that none iniquity is in him."

When interpreting the Scriptures, we must take them as a whole; one verse cannot contradict another. So how do we deal with this seeming contradiction?

The simple answer - one of these verses is not saying what it appears to be on the surface.

God's word was, as given to man, in a different language than our English translations; sometimes, what a verse is really trying to say, or what was originally intended, can get "lost in translation" a bit. Luckily, we have been blessed by God with the proper tools to decipher and understand HIS meaning; because although there is fault in man, with Him there is no confusion.

Ps. 5:4 tells us that God does not take pleasure in wickedness, and evil cannot dwell with him. In this passage, everything from the original language, to the comparison of "wickedness" and "evil" make it clear that this passage is speaking of evil (wickedness, things that are opposed to good)

Taking a look again at Isaiah;

Isa 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

If you continue on a little further down the verse -

Isa. 45:12-13 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, whose hands have spread out the heavens, I have even commanded all their army. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts.

As I stated before (not to be redundant, but I will simply repost for the sake of time; if you think I have something wrong, please feel free to let me know!)

The idea is not so much that God creates evil as that he creates adversity. God is the author of all events, both prosperous and and adverse. Based on the context of the verse itself, "Evil", if it was meant to be understood as wickedness, would not have been contrasted with "peace", but instead the verse would read "making righteousness and creating evil". But that is not the intention of the passage. What it refers to is a contrast between "peace" (pleasant events and happenings) and evil (unpleasant and adverse events and happenings.) God is not the author of evil, not in the primary sense. While it is true that God allows or permits wickedness, and even uses men as instruments to display His own wrath and judgement, He himself is not the author of evil. If God uses a man, whose heart truly desires hatred and evil, to further His own cause, did God then MAKE this man do what he did? Or rather, did he simply use the inclinations of this man's own heart to further His own causes? It is very true that God is the author of all events that come to pass, and that he even makes use of men, good or evil, to bless or chastise his people. But wickedness does not find it's origin with God.

The text itself when examined, as well as the context of the passage, do not say God creates evil itself; rather His hand guides the path of history, through both conflict and peace.

Thanks so much for giving this a read! Have a blessed day!

 

[Mjh29]

M,,,,I gave you a like because of HOW you explained Isaiah 47....
indeed the contrast is not between peace and evil, as you've correctly explained.
The Hebrew word RA means calamity, trouble and the like.
Peace is contrasted with calamity, trouble.

Thank you very much! I agree completely; in this context peace is contrasted with calamity or strife!

There is also another way of explaining this.....
God does not create evil or calamity......

What happens is that when God REMOVES His protective hand from any situation,,,calamity will ensue.

Absolutely agree! God's grace over humanity is the only thing that separates us from times of peace and times of calamity. Without God's Grace, the natural inclination of sinfulness in men will show itself; without God, there can be no goodness, no peace. A world without God's grace is one of calamity and chaos. Great point!

You also explain how God ALLOWS evil to happen...every Christian believes this but Calvinists believe God created evil and actually predestinates evil. This would make God a sinner....exactly what is preached against in the bible.

I cannot speak for all Reformed believers; I cannot speak for anyone other than myself, but if I may explain a little?

If I might be so bold (and please do correct me if I am wrong!) but your line of thinking seems to be:

1.) God predestines/ordains all things that come to pass
2.) Evil comes to pass
3.) God therefore is the author of evil

Personally, this is not how I view the Scriptures, nor do I believe this is what they teach. Boiled down in a similar fashion, here is how I believe God's predestination works.

1.) God ordains all things that come to pass; if He gives grace good (peaceful, positive) will come to pass; if He withholds His Grace man's natural inclination is towards evil, therefore evil (strife, calamity, bad things) will come to pass
2.) Evil comes to pass
3.) God did not create evil; He simply chose to withhold His grace in a certain situation.

If good can only come to pass due to His Grace, and only evil comes to pass without His grace, then it stands to reason that this Grace is the only thing standing between good and evil - through choosing when and where to dispense his Grace, God predestines (ordains) the course of history without being himself the author of evil; does he USE evil? yes. Does he CONTROL evil. Also yes (through giving/withholding grace). But is he the origin or author of evil? May it never be!

This is the lens through which I believe we are to interpret all Scripture which references God's control over/use of evil. And I would be happy to supply Scripture to support this (however, this is rather long already and I would not want it to be overwhelmingly/annoyingly so)

Thank you for the post! And I truly hope you have a wonderful day!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hi @Ronald Nolette .where I’ve highlighted do you understand what it means?

This special grace is frequently linked with the five points of Calvinism as irresistible grace or efficacious grace. Common Grace is God working in the heart of the sinner to emulate the Christian life but not effectually saving that sinner.

It may be. I have beern taught that common or prevenient grace is that God gives sun and rain and provision to both the righteous and unrighteous.

someone can emulate a godly lifestyle of "good deeds and charity" through upbringing without ever knowng Jesus

 

[Ritajanice]

someone can emulate a godly lifestyle of "good deeds and charity" through upbringing without ever knowng Jesus

Agreed, Amen!

 

[Atarah]

Reader,

Lets look deeper now., into this "Doctrine of Devils" that started with Calvin, and was evolved into Hyper-Calvinism (TULIP) "the 5 points".

A "TULIP"> a hyper calvinist, a "5-point">.. is one who believes in Calvinism = extremism .

So, both the Calvinist and the Hyper, have been led to believe that Paul the Apostle is a Calvinist. a 5 Point Hyper Calvinist.
And that is what they TEACH and BELIEVE.

So, lets look at that, and then i'll show you one more, in the next post..

First, lets understand why a person goes to hell and not to heaven..
Its simply because they "died in their sin, never forgiven", and were never born again. So, they died separated from God, by their Sin..
So, that situation, does not allow you to go to Heaven, because you were not forgiven all your sin.... born 'In Christ" as "one with God", before you died.
This is why Jesus told us.....>"YOU, MUST, be born again", and if you are not you are not a Son/Daughter of God when you died, and so your eternity is spent, where those who are not born again Sons/Daughters of God, end up... and that is not in Heaven......
There is only one other option. : HELL.

Now, Calvin and the Hyper-Calvinist, teach that Paul is a 5-point Hyper Calvinist, as they teach that a few verses that Paul wrote, that they SEE as meaning what Calvin teaches and others who evolved Calvins theology in Hyper-Calvinism.., proves that Paul is a Calvinist, and a Hyper Calvinist.
They believe that a few of Paul's verses teach the 5-points of Hyper- Calvinism as well as Calvinism.

So, listen now.... as you have to see this... in your understanding.

If Paul is a Calvinist, then Jesus is a Calvinist....... as Paul RECEIVED all His Theology "not from any man, but from the LORD", Himself.
So, If Paul is a Calvinist, then Jesus is a Calvinist., according to Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism that is "the 5 Points"..(TULIP).

Therefore, if Paul and The Lord Jesus The Christ are both Calvinists, then they will understand "pre-destined" to believe."
They will understand "pre-chosen" to believe"
They will understand "God causes you to believe or you can't".
And they will teach that always.

Now, lets look at some Verses..

1.) "their remainth no more sacrifice for your sin" because you have "willfully sinned", the sin of UNBELIEF... "just as your Father's did".

So, those verses are Hebrews 6 & 10.. .and this one..

“'"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You ALWAYS RESIST the HOLY Spirit.!""""

So, Hyper Calvinism, teaches that this isn't possible, as you have no free will..
Yet if the Forum member can read, you Just read PAUL tell Christ rejectors, that "THEY...ALWAYS resist the Holy Spirit."
This means that Paul is one confused Calvinist, Hyper Calvinist, or that Calvinism and the "5-points" (TULIP) is a "doctrine of Devils"., as Paul just blamed them for their "resisting the Holy Spirit" that the '5-points" of Hyper Calvinism, says isn't possible.

Now when you read that "you always RESIST THE HOLY SPIRIT", then that is "you are resisting the Truth, that is the Gospel being revealed to you".., and that is also Hebrews 10".. ."If you willfully sin"...(will not believe in Jesus, willfully) there remainth no more JESUS FOR YOU... "there remaineth no more SACRIFICE for your SIN." because of your Willful decision to reject the Sacrifice who is JESUS ON THE CROSS.

So, then If Paul is the "5-point" Hyper Calvinist, who teaches that "you can't choose Christ unless you are caused to believe by the HS"............. then Paul just lied when He taught us that = THEY Resisted the Holy Spirit = Willfully........as does every Christ Rejector.

Notice that Paul didnt say..>>"well, dont worry about it, because you were just not chosen to believe".

Look now at Acts 28:28... as this is actually Hebrews 10... in the Book of the "ACTS of the Apostles."
Paul said to UNBELIEVING JEWS........>>"I will take the Gospel to the Gentiles, and they will Believe it".
So, if these JEWS were "pre-chosen" to not be the "5-Point, Hyper-Calvin" "chosen to believe" .. then you notice that Paul didnt say... "no worries, you can't believe because you are not of the chosen to believe"..

Reader, why did Paul forget all his Hyper-Calvinism, and "TULIP"< "5-points" in these Verses?

A.) Its because Paul is not a Calvinst.. Paul is not a "5-Point " TULIP... = Deceiver.

You might find Invitation or Election an interesting read...

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hello Ronald, nice to see you replying. I do not know why you assume I am so forgetful as I only had one point and question namely, that before a person becomes a vessel of wrath, he/she by free will rejected God, and for a long time, without conversion. What does TULIP say about that?

But Scripture does not say it is by free will. It is by the fact we by nature reject God.

Rom. 8:8 1 cor. 2:14 and Eph 2:1-5 and Romans 6:16-18 as well as Romans 3 show not only do we not seek God, we do not wish to and are enslaved to sin and by nature objects of wrath.

I do not see where Tulip addresses your statement. but a few passages in Scripture give us i9nsight in how God views those who are saved.Even when we were in our "lost state".

Jer. 1:5: 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Gal. 1:
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Eph. 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are known and chosen of god from before creation. then in time, He called us out of the death of sin.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I hate to say this but feel I must:

How does it feel to know that God predestined all these operations for you?
How does it feel for a reformed girl to be raped and know that God predestined it for her?
How does it feel for a parent to have 2 children and they don't get saved because God does not wish for them to be saved?

HOW to you explain a Calvinist God RN?

BTW,,,I've had some operations myself....so I know what I'm speaking of.
I just don't blame God for them.....
In fact, I find comfort in Him.
Perhaps the only comfort we have in this life.

Well I do not know if God predestined all those surgeries or not! I know God used them in that I got to minister to many nurses in teh varied hospitals!

I can't speak for reformed mindsets for I am not reformed. I have told you this several times now, so bringing that up to imply I am is disingenuous.

I do not expalin a Calvinist God- I explain a biblical god as the word is written! It doesn't matter if I like what god may say or do- if it is Scripture we must accept it.

I remember one of your videos you posted. It was entitled: "What romans 9 really means". what arrogance and presumption. If it doesn't mean what it says, then one cannot argue when one come sup with a different meaning than you . It all becomes allegorical and personal bias.

Also I never blamed God for my operations. Once again you are attacking trhe caricature of me you made instead of addressing me and what I actually believe.

I do not believe god predestines all things. That is not what predestination is about.

He does pre-destine the good works we should do (Eph 2:10) But He has given man a volition to choose daily things like what to wear, eat, drive, etc. If God wants me to have a certain car- He will let me know!

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you very much! I agree completely; in this context peace is contrasted with calamity or strife!

Absolutely agree! God's grace over humanity is the only thing that separates us from times of peace and times of calamity. Without God's Grace, the natural inclination of sinfulness in men will show itself; without God, there can be no goodness, no peace. A world without God's grace is one of calamity and chaos. Great point!

Agreed.

I cannot speak for all Reformed believers; I cannot speak for anyone other than myself, but if I may explain a little?

If I might be so bold (and please do correct me if I am wrong!) but your line of thinking seems to be:

1.) God predestines/ordains all things that come to pass
2.) Evil comes to pass
3.) God therefore is the author of evil

Agreed (that this is what some Calvinists teach).
Actually M....this is what some reformed theologians teach...aside from the fact that, yes, if God predestines everything and evil exists then He predestines evil....some go so far as to say that God created evil (as the other member states).
Not all Calvinists believe this...the higher or hyper calvinists certainly do...John Piper, Doug Wilson and others.

Personally, this is not how I view the Scriptures, nor do I believe this is what they teach. Boiled down in a similar fashion, here is how I believe God's predestination works.

1.) God ordains all things that come to pass; if He gives grace good (peaceful, positive) will come to pass; if He withholds His Grace man's natural inclination is towards evil, therefore evil (strife, calamity, bad things) will come to pass
2.) Evil comes to pass
3.) God did not create evil; He simply chose to withhold His grace in a certain situation.

I agree....but is this what calvinism teaches?
I don't think so.

This is from Calvin's Institutes Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 6
The Christian, then, being most fully persuaded, that all things come to pass by the dispensation of God, and that nothing happens fortuitously, will always direct his eye to him as the principal cause of events, at the same time paying due regard to inferior causes in their own place.
Next, he will have no doubt that a special providence is awake for his preservation, and will not suffer anything to happen that will not turn to his good and safety. But as its business is first with men and then with the other creatures, he will feel 189assured that the providence of God reigns over both. In regard to men, good as well as bad, he will acknowledge that their counsels, wishes, aims and faculties are so under his hand, that he has full power to turn them in whatever direction, and constrain them as often as he pleases.

This is repeated in the WC in chapter 5.
Aren't Calvinists taught what Calvin taught? (and others of course).

How I understand it is this:
God is all good and there is no darkness in Him. 1 John 1:5
All good comes from God above. James 1:17
Evil entered into the world...maybe in the Garden,,,probably before.

The problem of theodicy is a big problem in Christian theology...
but it's accepted that evil could not have come from God or the teachings of Jesus would have
no meaning and Christianity would have to be abandoned.

If good can only come to pass due to His Grace, and only evil comes to pass without His grace, then it stands to reason that this Grace is the only thing standing between good and evil - through choosing when and where to dispense his Grace, God predestines (ordains) the course of history without being himself the author of evil; does he USE evil? yes. Does he CONTROL evil. Also yes (through giving/withholding grace). But is he the origin or author of evil? May it never be!

Well, I agree with YOU!

This is the lens through which I believe we are to interpret all Scripture which references God's control over/use of evil. And I would be happy to supply Scripture to support this (however, this is rather long already and I would not want it to be overwhelmingly/annoyingly so)

Thank you for the post! And I truly hope you have a wonderful day!

It's accepted theology that God could control anything the way He wants to....all Christians believe God is sovereign and in control.
But Christians believe in free will - calvinists do not.

This unbelief in free will makes it necessary that it's God that MUST necessarily decree every action of man.
There's a difference between God creating evil
and
God using evil to achieve His means.

If man has free will.....God can USE evil.
If man has no free will....God must decree that man be sinful because He must decree man's every move.

You don't have to supply scripture....I think this is a big difference but I'm not sure you agree with it.
I'm not sure you agree with the Confessions or Calvin....

 

[GodsGrace]

Well I do not know if God predestined all those surgeries or not! I know God used them in that I got to minister to many nurses in teh varied hospitals!

I can't speak for reformed mindsets for I am not reformed. I have told you this several times now, so bringing that up to imply I am is disingenuous.

I do not expalin a Calvinist God- I explain a biblical god as the word is written! It doesn't matter if I like what god may say or do- if it is Scripture we must accept it.

I remember one of your videos you posted. It was entitled: "What romans 9 really means". what arrogance and presumption. If it doesn't mean what it says, then one cannot argue when one come sup with a different meaning than you . It all becomes allegorical and personal bias.

Also I never blamed God for my operations. Once again you are attacking trhe caricature of me you made instead of addressing me and what I actually believe.

I do not believe god predestines all things. That is not what predestination is about.

He does pre-destine the good works we should do (Eph 2:10) But He has given man a volition to choose daily things like what to wear, eat, drive, etc. If God wants me to have a certain car- He will let me know!

Just thought I'd give you some food for thought.
However, I won't be responding.
I find it difficult to speak to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I agree....but is this what calvinism teaches?
I don't think so.

This is from Calvin's Institutes Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 6
The Christian, then, being most fully persuaded, that all things come to pass by the dispensation of God, and that nothing happens fortuitously, will always direct his eye to him as the principal cause of events, at the same time paying due regard to inferior causes in their own place.
Next, he will have no doubt that a special providence is awake for his preservation, and will not suffer anything to happen that will not turn to his good and safety. But as its business is first with men and then with the other creatures, he will feel 189assured that the providence of God reigns over both. In regard to men, good as well as bad, he will acknowledge that their counsels, wishes, aims and faculties are so under his hand, that he has full power to turn them in whatever direction, and constrain them as often as he pleases.

This is repeated in the WC in chapter 5.
Aren't Calvinists taught what Calvin taught? (and others of course).

How I understand it is this:
God is all good and there is no darkness in Him. 1 John 1:5
All good comes from God above. James 1:17
Evil entered into the world...maybe in the Garden,,,probably before.

The problem of theodicy is a big problem in Christian theology...
but it's accepted that evil could not have come from God or the teachings of Jesus would have
no meaning and Christianity would have to be abandoned.

I agree, those who teach God presetines everything and we are just automatons is hyper Calvinism and AFAIK is only accepted by a very small minority of Calvinists.

God allows evil! He allowed :Lucifer to rebel and uses it to bring glory t Himself in ways above my pay grade.

He allows evil to occur and yes even flourish at times, but that is always according to His will. Once again the understanding of this is above my pay grade. Finite man can never hope to comprehend the mind of infinite God unless He clearly reveals it through His Word.
Here is a point for you to ponder. SCri[ture teaches us that gods will is sovereign in the universe! Nothing can go against His will.

God allowed evil in this world so it serves His will in some way shape or form. God could have prevented it if He chose to, but He did not. So then He gave ap[proval for it to happen.

Unless you believe any created being can thwart the sovereign will of God.