Freed : From Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Pont.

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GodsGrace

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Hello again!



I completely agree! I personally only speak one language fluently and can read Koine a bit; I'm glad you agree!



My apologies if I offended you and your intelligence; I never want to assume anything about someone I'm discussing something with, so I thought it would be helpful to explain a bit of how I interpret. I'm glad we can agree on this as well!



Absolutely!

Yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them

The Perspicuity of Scripture!



A great question! This would be because God has selected the Word (Scriptures) as His means of dispensing grace to His people!

(1 Corinthians 2:12-13 , 2 Timothy 3:16 , Matthew 4:4 , Hebrews 4:12)

God has ordained the means through which He would dispense His Grace to His people; and this means happens to be the Word, Scripture.

I wonder what you mean by grace.
What would you say, then, to persons that are saved but have never read the bible?
I think you mean something I'm not understanding.

God dispenses His grace through many means.
Going to worship, for instance....a service or a Mass.
Being baptized is a blessing...that would be grace.
God freely gives us grace as we need it through our spirit in ways we can't even understand.

Doesn't grace just mean God's love for us? Unmerited love. He loves us because we're His creation.

Oh! Very nice! You know, I've been meaning to pick one up; would you happen to know how it compares to the original? (If not that is totally fine, I was just a bit curious lol)
It compares because I find it easier to understand and I'd hate to get something wrong.

Chapter V OLD ENGLISH
1. GOD, THE GREAT CREATOR OF ALL THINGS, DOTH UPHOLD, DIRECT, DISPOSE AND GOVERN ALL CREATURES, ACTIONS, AND THINGS, FROM THE GREATEST EVEN TO THE LEAST, BY HIS MOST WISE AND HOLY PROVIDENCE, ACCORDING TO HIS INFALLIBLE FOREKNOWLEDGE, AND THE FREE AND IMMUTABLE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL.

Chapter 5 MODERN LANGUAGE
1. GOD, OUR GREAT CREATOR, HOLDS UP ALL THINGS, DIRECTS THEM, AND TEARS THEM DOWN. FROM THE BIGGEST TO THE SMALLEST. HE GOVERNS EVERYTHING. THIS WISE AND HOLY CARE IS CALLED GOD'S PROVEDENCE.

You could get it online. There are a few modern versions...you could check them out.
For serious study...I DO like to confirm with the original language.

Try this:
I do not believe that God is a God of confusion, no! I believe that differences in rest solely on the shoulders of man; as an imperfect creature, we are bound to make mistakes in our interpretations of the Word (my own included, I know that everything I believe is in no way a "perfect truth")
Agreed.
Absolutely. This happens quite often; where a verse is read with a preconceived notion in mind, which finds it's way ported into the text. 100% agree! And I certainly do not believe that this is a hinderance to good discussion though!

Thank you very much for the post! Have a blessed day!
Will be signing off soon.
Have a good day.
 

GodsGrace

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The reason I believe in the 5 points is because I see it throughout Scripture, even before I knew what Calvinism was.

From experience, I never wanted anything to do with God until He chose me, when I was in the Penitentiary.

All I can say is that He changed my heart and I had nothing to do with that.

I can never walk away from Him.

Grace and peace to you.
OK.

I don't really understand how anyone could go to the NT with an open mind and come away believing what, for instance, MacArthur teaches.
My experience is that I DID seek God and He replied things that worked - and in a way that I could NOT, in the future, attribute them to me or my power.

The important thing here is that a heart was changed.
I do have to say, again, that I dislike calvinism because it changes the nature of God.
If God is loving, merciful and just...He must be like this with EVERYONE,,,with all of His creatures.

And, I agree, once someone has tasted of this love....how can they walk away?
(but I know that some have - for different reasons).

We've stated what we believe....I don't like arguing.
So unless you think of anything else,,,,I'll be saying arrivederci...
till next time!
GG
 

Ritajanice

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The grace of God develops in our spirit, as that is where the Spirit is at work..the Bible does not give you grace...

2 Peter 3:18King James Version (KJV) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
 
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Bladerunner

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God created evil?
I wouldn't say it's biblical...
but it's what hyper-calvinists believe and this is what I was responding to.

I agree with you that true Calvinists believe that God created evil.
what do you consider biblical....If it is written in the Bible, then it is Bible for GOD spoke every word within its pages...Isa 45:7.."I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
 

Mjh29

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what do you consider biblical....If it is written in the Bible, then it is Bible for GOD spoke every word within its pages...Isa 45:7.."I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

While I was in another discussion, I would like to take a moment here to point out that, in this context, the idea is not so much that God creates evil as that he creates adversity. God is the author of all events, both prosperous and and adverse. Based on the context of the verse itself, "Evil", if it was meant to be understood as wickedness, would not have been contrasted with "peace", but instead the verse would read "making righteousness and creating evil". But that is not the intention of the passage. What it refers to is a contrast between "peace" (pleasant events and happenings) and evil (unpleasant and adverse events and happenings.) God is not the author of evil, not in the primary sense. While it is true that God allows or permits wickedness, and even uses men as instruments to display His own wrath and judgement, He himself is not the author of evil. If God uses a man, whose heart truly desires hatred and evil, to further His own cause, did God then MAKE this man do what he did? Or rather, did he simply use the inclinations of this man's own heart to further His own causes? It is very true that God is the author of all events that come to pass, and that he even makes use of men, good or evil, to bless or chastise his people. But wickedness does not find it's origin with God.
At least, this is my opinion on the matter! Feel free to take it as you will!
Have a blessed day!
 
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GodsGrace

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While I was in another discussion, I would like to take a moment here to point out that, in this context, the idea is not so much that God creates evil as that he creates adversity. God is the author of all events, both prosperous and and adverse. Based on the context of the verse itself, "Evil", if it was meant to be understood as wickedness, would not have been contrasted with "peace", but instead the verse would read "making righteousness and creating evil". But that is not the intention of the passage. What it refers to is a contrast between "peace" (pleasant events and happenings) and evil (unpleasant and adverse events and happenings.) God is not the author of evil, not in the primary sense. While it is true that God allows or permits wickedness, and even uses men as instruments to display His own wrath and judgement, He himself is not the author of evil. If God uses a man, whose heart truly desires hatred and evil, to further His own cause, did God then MAKE this man do what he did? Or rather, did he simply use the inclinations of this man's own heart to further His own causes? It is very true that God is the author of all events that come to pass, and that he even makes use of men, good or evil, to bless or chastise his people. But wickedness does not find it's origin with God.
At least, this is my opinion on the matter! Feel free to take it as you will!
Have a blessed day!
M,,,,I gave you a like because of HOW you explained Isaiah 47....
indeed the contrast is not between peace and evil, as you've correctly explained.
The Hebrew word RA means calamity, trouble and the like.
Peace is contrasted with calamity, trouble.

There is also another way of explaining this.....
God does not create evil or calamity......

What happens is that when God REMOVES His protective hand from any situation,,,calamity will ensue.

Also, the other poster would have to explain away what John means when he states that IN GOD THERE IS NO DARKNESS.
1 John 1:5

You also explain how God ALLOWS evil to happen...every Christian believes this but Calvinists believe God created evil and actually predestinates evil. This would make God a sinner....exactly what is preached against in the bible.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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I’ve already posted what it meant..read my post again?

Here it is?


I know 100% that I am Born Again and was chosen by God..the Holy Spirit gave birth to my spirit, he penetrated my spirit and it was reborn ,his seed remains in my spirit, permanently.

The seed is the Living Holy Spirit, that’s whose seed remains in our spirit.
The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God, he witness that truth to my spirit all day every day..

He testifies with my spirit that my salvation is 100 % secure.,.his Spirit is also Alive and Active in me...I’m under the authority of the Spirit and in Gods will.

He speaks Gods truth out through me..the Holy Spirit that is.
I agree 100%. I do issue a caveat here. We do speaak god's Truth when we are under the control of the spirit. But there are many times when everyone blurts opinion and not Doctrinal truth. None are exempt from this reality.
 
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Ritajanice

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I agree 100%. I do issue a caveat here. We do speaak god's Truth when we are under the control of the spirit. But there are many times when everyone blurts opinion and not Doctrinal truth. None are exempt from this reality.
I agree 100%Brother..my old man often flares up in the forum, it’s nit just between you and Behold,LOL.

I hope your health is improving, you are in my prayers.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

What's the connection between Rom 9:22 (the green) and Rom 1:21-25 ?

EDIT - By the absence of a reaction allow me to answer my own question. Before people become vessels of wrath God gave them much time to repent respecting their free will (endured with much longsuffering) like with Pharaoh, like with the people in Rom 1:24.

I assume my understanding will probably not fit well with Calvinism.
Well I cannot speak for Calvinism, for I only accept the 5 points as biblical.

But like gods grace, you forget that Paul addresses these historic facts to remind us that God is speaking to Jews and Gentiles in the here and now.

You also forget that the elect are so from before Goid created the universe.

You also forget that all are born fitted for destruction.

Paul i romans, corinthians and ephesians makes this very very clear.
 
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GodsGrace

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what do you consider biblical....If it is written in the Bible, then it is Bible for GOD spoke every word within its pages...Isa 45:7.."I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
This is what is meant by biblical....
It means that a CONCEPT or THEOLOGICAL DOCTRINE is aligned with biblical teachings.

It DOES NOT mean that a verse is found in the bible.
EVERY verse if found in the bible.

The problem is that some verses could be misunderstood, taken out of context, or simply interpreted they way the theologians of any particular denomination WISHES to interpret them in order to inforce their own teachings.

@Mjh29 gave an excellent explanation of Isaiah 45 even though he does consider himself to be reformed.
This is called intellectual honesty.

One of the reasons I find reformed/Calvinist theology to be incorrect is simply because it created many conflicts within scripture and conflicts cannot exist in scripture...or, at the least, they need to be explained away somehow.

So you posted
Isaiah 45:7
7The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.


Now, here's
1 John 1:5
5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.


and

1 John 4:8
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.


You probably know about Divine Simplicity.
So if John's statement are correct...
HOW could the Isaiah statement be correct?

How would YOU reconcile this conflict?

Does God create evil/calamity?
But John says there is NO DARKNESS in God...
John says GOD IS LOVE.

??

 
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Ronald Nolette

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I agree 100%Brother..my old man often flares up in the forum, it’s nit just between you and Behold,LOL.

I hope your health is improving, you are in my prayers.
Thank ytou . I go for a follow up in 90 days to know if they killed all the cancer.

I do have an abdominal surgery coming up in Jan. or February as well. That will be surgery #14. I feel like a bologna sometimes in a deli! :jest: :jest:
 
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Ronald Nolette

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You've confused "exegesis" with Hyper Calvinism... same as usual.

Now notice this...

You teach that people, everyone, ""have NO FREE WILL""" ......yet here you are by free will Choice.... posting.

"well behold, i meant that the hyper-calvinism 5 points teach that humans are too depraved to choose CHRIST">.....but they can choose Allah, and Scientology, and The Buddha, and the "theory of evolution".....by their God given faith...

"see behold" they can have faith in all that......... but they just can't have any faith in CHRIST, unless God forced it down their throat..(caused to believe).... as my "hyper calvinism" taught me to tell everyone.""

Yet, Jesus said ...>>"you ...refuse... to come to me so that you might have life"..

And a verse you might have read says......"choose this day, whom you will serve"...

See that "choose this day""... .and notice the.... "REFUSE to come to JESUS"?.........that is FREE WILL choosing NOT TO BELIEVE.........when it could have, but "CHOSE TO REFUSE".. and that is "choosing to follow"....= Free Will.
:jest: :jest: :jest: :jest: :jest:
 
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Ritajanice

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Thank ytou . I go for a follow up in 90 days to know if they killed all the cancer.

I do have an abdominal surgery coming up in Jan. or February as well. That will be surgery #14. I feel like a bologna sometimes in a deli! :jest: :jest:
I love that you can make a joke of it.,,praying in Jesus Mighty Name! All cancer be gone ,that you will be completely free of cancer..AMEN!!
 
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GodsGrace

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Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

What's the connection between Rom 9:22 (the green) and Rom 1:21-25 ?

EDIT - By the absence of a reaction allow me to answer my own question. Before people become vessels of wrath God gave them much time to repent respecting their free will (endured with much longsuffering) like with Pharaoh, like with the people in Rom 1:24.

I assume my understanding will probably not fit well with Calvinism.
Pro,,,your understanding does not fit well with Calvinism...
However,,,it is the CORRECT understanding.

Romans is speaking of situations such as the golden calf builders in the desert at Sinai.
God can CHOOSE to NOT HAVE MERCY on these vessels of wrath....they indeed were vessels of wrath.

But not because God predestinated that this golden calf be built by them from the beginning of time, but because they CHOSE not to honor God and complain about their situation and go back to idols like the Egyptians also worshipped.

Think of how illogical Calvinism is:
God predestinated the Israelites to form the golden calf and worhship it because, according to the reformed, God predestinated everything...

Then God punishes them by making them vessels of wrath because they DID WHAT HE PREDESTINED THEM TO DO!!

It's beyond any reasonable understanding.
 
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Mjh29

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I wonder what you mean by grace.
Hello again! I hope you're having a wonderful day!

Grace as a general term, as I believe the Scriptures defines it, is unmerited favor from God. There are of course different kinds and types of Grace, but as a general term I would say that this definition suits both Common and Special forms of God's Grace

God dispenses His grace through many means.

I would agree! God indeed does dispense His Grace through many means - however His selected means of distributing his Special Grace would be through the Word of God, or the Scriptures.

Going to worship, for instance....a service or a Mass.

While I personally do not hold to the Mass, I can agree that going to a church service would certainly be considered one of the means God uses to dispense His Grace, yes! Though, I believe that it is only because we are following His commands (which are laid down in Scriptures, and therefore are by extension following the Scriptures), and through the reading and teaching of His Word in said service.

You could get it online. There are a few modern versions...you could check them out.
For serious study...I DO like to confirm with the original language.

As do I for sure! But I must admit I very much enjoyed the more modern interpretation as well! Thank you for taking the time to seriously consider these things! I do appreciate your time and effort!


Thank you! And thank you for the pleasant conversation as well; it has been very refreshing to simply discuss beliefs with someone, as opposed to feeling like I am arguing with someone!

I hope you're having a blessed day!
 
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Ritajanice

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Hi @Ronald Nolette .where I’ve highlighted do you understand what it means?

This special grace is frequently linked with the five points of Calvinism as irresistible grace or efficacious grace. Common Grace is God working in the heart of the sinner to emulate the Christian life but not effectually saving that sinner.
 

Mjh29

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This is what is meant by biblical....
It means that a CONCEPT or THEOLOGICAL DOCTRINE is aligned with biblical teachings.

It DOES NOT mean that a verse is found in the bible.
EVERY verse if found in the bible.

The problem is that some verses could be misunderstood, taken out of context, or simply interpreted they way the theologians of any particular denomination WISHES to interpret them in order to inforce their own teachings.

@Mjh29 gave an excellent explanation of Isaiah 45 even though he does consider himself to be reformed.
This is called intellectual honesty.

One of the reasons I find reformed/Calvinist theology to be incorrect is simply because it created many conflicts within scripture and conflicts cannot exist in scripture...or, at the least, they need to be explained away somehow.

So you posted
Isaiah 45:7
7The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.


Now, here's
1 John 1:5
5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

and

1 John 4:8
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.


You probably know about Divine Simplicity.
So if John's statement are correct...
HOW could the Isaiah statement be correct?

How would YOU reconcile this conflict?

Does God create evil/calamity?
But John says there is NO DARKNESS in God...
John says GOD IS LOVE.

??
While I believe myself to be reformed, I do have to agree - it is far too easy for me (I will only say these things about myself as I do not wish to claim to speak for others) But in my personal experience, it is very easy to find yourself porting your ideas into the Scriptures rather than simply letting them speak for themselves.
 
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ElectedbyHim

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what do you consider biblical....If it is written in the Bible, then it is Bible for GOD spoke every word within its pages...Isa 45:7.."I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7



7.Forming light. As if he had said, that they who formerly were wont to ascribe everything either to fortune or to idols shall acknowledge the true God, so as to ascribe power and the government and glory of all things, to him alone. He does not speak of perfect knowledge, though this intelligence is requisite for the attainment of it. But since the Prophet says that it shall be manifest even to heathens, that everything is directed and governed by the will of God, they who bear the Christian name ought to be ashamed, when they strip him of his power, and bestow it on various governors, whom they have formed according to their fancy, as we see done in Popery; for God is not acknowledged when a bare and empty name is given to him, but when we ascribe to him full authority.

Making peace, and creating evil. By the words “light” and “darkness” he describes metaphorically not only peace and war; but adverse and prosperous events of any kind; and he extends the word peace, according to the custom of Hebrew writers, to all success and prosperity. This is made abundantly clear by the contrast; for he contrasts “peace” not only with war, but with adverse events of every sort. Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts “peace” with “evil,” that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted “righteousness” with “evil,” there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other. Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the “evil” of punishment, but not of the “evil” of guilt.

But the Sophists are wrong in their exposition; for, while they acknowledge that famine, barrenness, war, pestilence, and other scourges, come from God, they deny that God is the author of calamities, when they befall us through the agency of men. This is false and altogether contrary to the present doctrine; for the Lord raises up wicked men to chastise us by their hand, as is evident from various passages of Scripture. (1Kg_11:14.) The Lord does not indeed inspire them with malice, but he uses it for the purpose of chastising us, and exercises the office of a judge, in the same manner as he made use of the malice of Pharaoh and others, in order to punish his people. (Exo_1:11 and Exo_2:23.) We ought therefore to hold this doctrine, that God alone is the author of all events; that is, that adverse and prosperous events are sent by him, even though he makes use of the agency of men, that none may attribute it to fortune, or to any other cause.
 

GodsGrace

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Isaiah 45:7



7.Forming light. As if he had said, that they who formerly were wont to ascribe everything either to fortune or to idols shall acknowledge the true God, so as to ascribe power and the government and glory of all things, to him alone. He does not speak of perfect knowledge, though this intelligence is requisite for the attainment of it. But since the Prophet says that it shall be manifest even to heathens, that everything is directed and governed by the will of God, they who bear the Christian name ought to be ashamed, when they strip him of his power, and bestow it on various governors, whom they have formed according to their fancy, as we see done in Popery; for God is not acknowledged when a bare and empty name is given to him, but when we ascribe to him full authority.

Making peace, and creating evil. By the words “light” and “darkness” he describes metaphorically not only peace and war; but adverse and prosperous events of any kind; and he extends the word peace, according to the custom of Hebrew writers, to all success and prosperity. This is made abundantly clear by the contrast; for he contrasts “peace” not only with war, but with adverse events of every sort. Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts “peace” with “evil,” that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted “righteousness” with “evil,” there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other. Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the “evil” of punishment, but not of the “evil” of guilt.

But the Sophists are wrong in their exposition; for, while they acknowledge that famine, barrenness, war, pestilence, and other scourges, come from God, they deny that God is the author of calamities, when they befall us through the agency of men. This is false and altogether contrary to the present doctrine; for the Lord raises up wicked men to chastise us by their hand, as is evident from various passages of Scripture. (1Kg_11:14.) The Lord does not indeed inspire them with malice, but he uses it for the purpose of chastising us, and exercises the office of a judge, in the same manner as he made use of the malice of Pharaoh and others, in order to punish his people. (Exo_1:11 and Exo_2:23.) We ought therefore to hold this doctrine, that God alone is the author of all events; that is, that adverse and prosperous events are sent by him, even though he makes use of the agency of men, that none may attribute it to fortune, or to any other cause.
The above sounds like John Calvin.
Do you have the source?
His second paragraph is correct...see from the middle down. (of the 2nd PP)
but he still ends up with the idea that no man should attribute any event to fortune, or to any other cause..
(last sentence).
 

ProDeo

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Well I cannot speak for Calvinism, for I only accept the 5 points as biblical.

But like gods grace, you forget that Paul addresses these historic facts to remind us that God is speaking to Jews and Gentiles in the here and now.

You also forget that the elect are so from before Goid created the universe.

You also forget that all are born fitted for destruction.

Paul i romans, corinthians and ephesians makes this very very clear.
Hello Ronald, nice to see you replying. I do not know why you assume I am so forgetful as I only had one point and question namely, that before a person becomes a vessel of wrath, he/she by free will rejected God, and for a long time, without conversion. What does TULIP say about that?
 
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