THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[Johann]

The doctrine of Hypostasis is not found anywhere in the Bible.

let's fact check this with Scripture--


Hupostasis is used 19 times in the Septuagint (LXX) and 5 times in the NT…

2Cor 9:4 (3 But I have sent the brethren, that our boasting about you may not be made empty in this case, that, as I was saying, you may be prepared) 4 lest if any Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we (not to speak of you) should be put to shame by this confidence.

2Cor 11:17 That which I am speaking, I am not speaking as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting.

Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (hupostasis, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end;

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Considering these meanings of hupostasis in Hebrews 11:1 one could paraphrase this verse as follows…

Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for.

Faith is the foundation, the quality of confidence which leads one to stand under, endure, or undertake anything.

Faith involves the most solid possible conviction, the God-given present assurance of a future reality.

Thus hupostasis has as it's etymological equivalent in English the word "substance" which describes that which stands under a thing or that which makes it what it is.

In Hebrews 1:3 the Son is such a revelation of the Father that when we see Jesus, we see what God's real being is.

Hebrews 1:3 (note) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Comment: Christ is the very representation of the divine essence. The author is conveying the truth that whatever the divine essence is, Jesus is said to be its perfect expression and in so doing affirms the deity of Jesus Christ. The etymological equivalent of hupostasis in English is "substance" or that which stands under a thing and which makes it what it is. The Son is such a revelation of the Father that when we see Jesus, we see what God's real being is.)

Occurrences in the Septuagint (19 times)
Deuteronomy 1:12

"How can I alone bear your troubles, your burdens, and your strife?" (ὑποστάσεις in Greek refers to "burdens" or "causes of contention.")
Judges 6:4

"...and destroyed the increase of the earth..." (ὑπόστασιν refers to "substance" or "yield.")
Job 22:20

"...whereas our substance is not cut down..." (ὑπόστασις here means "substance" or "wealth.")
Psalm 38:5 (39:5 LXX)

"Indeed, every man at his best state is but vapor." (ὑπόστασις refers to a "state" or "existence.")
Psalm 68:2 (69:2 LXX)

"I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing." (ὑπόστασις is "standing" or "firm footing.")
Psalm 88:47 (89:47 LXX)

"Remember how short my time is..." (ὑπόστασις refers to "foundation" or "existence.")
Psalm 138:15 (139:15 LXX)

"My substance was not hidden from You when I was made in secret..." (ὑπόστασις refers to "substance" or "frame.")
Isaiah 26:16

"Lord, in trouble they have visited You..." (ὑπόστασις refers to "distress.")
Isaiah 57:16

"For I will not contend forever..." (ὑπόστασις means "existence" or "soul.")
Lamentations 3:18

"And I said, 'My strength and my hope have perished from the Lord.'" (ὑπόστασις refers to "hope" or "confidence.")
Ezekiel 19:5

"She saw that her hope was lost..." (ὑπόστασις is "hope.")
Ezekiel 26:20

"...and you shall have no habitation." (ὑπόστασις means "habitation" or "foundation.")
Daniel 11:20

"...a tax collector will arise..." (ὑπόστασις means "standing" or "office.")
Wisdom of Solomon 16:21

"For your sustenance manifested your sweetness toward your children..." (ὑπόστασις is "sustenance.")
Wisdom of Solomon 17:12

"For fear is nothing else but the betrayal of the supports of reason." (ὑπόστασις means "supports.")
Sirach 2:23 (Ecclesiasticus)

"...and the prosperity of a man in his house." (ὑπόστασις is "prosperity.")
Sirach 16:23 (Ecclesiasticus)

"...the thoughts of an understanding heart will not be hidden." (ὑπόστασις is "foundation.")
Sirach 42:10 (Ecclesiasticus)

"In her virginity, lest she should be defiled and gotten with child in her father’s house..." (ὑπόστασις means "confidence" or "foundation.")
1 Maccabees 6:49

"...and the city had no provisions to withstand a siege." (ὑπόστασις refers to "provisions.")
Occurrences in the New Testament (5 times)
2 Corinthians 9:4

"...lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf." (ὑπόστασις is "basis" or "foundation.")
2 Corinthians 11:17

"What I speak, I speak not according to the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting." (ὑπόστασις is "confidence.")
Hebrews 1:3

"...the express image of His person..." (ὑπόστασις is "substance" or "essence.")
Hebrews 3:14

"...if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." (ὑπόστασις is "confidence.")
Hebrews 11:1

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (ὑπόστασις is "substance" or "assurance.")
These occurrences demonstrate the diverse semantic range of ὑπόστασις, from "substance" or "essence" to "confidence," "foundation," or "state."

Its theological significance, particularly in Hebrews 1:3, became pivotal in articulating Christological and Trinitarian doctrines.

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Remember this verse when talking to JWs. They say we have no soul.

Yes.
It's pretty important.
As I understand it, our soul is our personal identity.
Our mind, will and emotions. The person that will be judged/evaluated in the afterlife.
The soul is accountable to God.

[

 

[Ritajanice]

What do you make of this?

John 14:2-3 NIV
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so,
would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and
take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

[

Once again, the Spirit has to reveal what that means by divine heart revelation.

I can’t take a guess of what that means in the flesh, as I’m in the spirit...I must wait to hear his voice and using the word, brings it to my understanding.

As of yet I have no understanding in my spirit what that means.

I rely 100% on the Spirit, to bring me to understanding Gods word.

 

[RedFan]

let's fact check this with Scripture--


Hupostasis is used 19 times in the Septuagint (LXX) and 5 times in the NT…

2Cor 9:4 (3 But I have sent the brethren, that our boasting about you may not be made empty in this case, that, as I was saying, you may be prepared) 4 lest if any Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we (not to speak of you) should be put to shame by this confidence.

2Cor 11:17 That which I am speaking, I am not speaking as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting.

Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (hupostasis, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end;

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Considering these meanings of hupostasis in Hebrews 11:1 one could paraphrase this verse as follows…

Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for.

Faith is the foundation, the quality of confidence which leads one to stand under, endure, or undertake anything.

Faith involves the most solid possible conviction, the God-given present assurance of a future reality.

Thus hupostasis has as it's etymological equivalent in English the word "substance" which describes that which stands under a thing or that which makes it what it is.

In Hebrews 1:3 the Son is such a revelation of the Father that when we see Jesus, we see what God's real being is.

Hebrews 1:3 (note) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Comment: Christ is the very representation of the divine essence. The author is conveying the truth that whatever the divine essence is, Jesus is said to be its perfect expression and in so doing affirms the deity of Jesus Christ. The etymological equivalent of hupostasis in English is "substance" or that which stands under a thing and which makes it what it is. The Son is such a revelation of the Father that when we see Jesus, we see what God's real being is.)

Occurrences in the Septuagint (19 times)
Deuteronomy 1:12

"How can I alone bear your troubles, your burdens, and your strife?" (ὑποστάσεις in Greek refers to "burdens" or "causes of contention.")
Judges 6:4

"...and destroyed the increase of the earth..." (ὑπόστασιν refers to "substance" or "yield.")
Job 22:20

"...whereas our substance is not cut down..." (ὑπόστασις here means "substance" or "wealth.")
Psalm 38:5 (39:5 LXX)

"Indeed, every man at his best state is but vapor." (ὑπόστασις refers to a "state" or "existence.")
Psalm 68:2 (69:2 LXX)

"I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing." (ὑπόστασις is "standing" or "firm footing.")
Psalm 88:47 (89:47 LXX)

"Remember how short my time is..." (ὑπόστασις refers to "foundation" or "existence.")
Psalm 138:15 (139:15 LXX)

"My substance was not hidden from You when I was made in secret..." (ὑπόστασις refers to "substance" or "frame.")
Isaiah 26:16

"Lord, in trouble they have visited You..." (ὑπόστασις refers to "distress.")
Isaiah 57:16

"For I will not contend forever..." (ὑπόστασις means "existence" or "soul.")
Lamentations 3:18

"And I said, 'My strength and my hope have perished from the Lord.'" (ὑπόστασις refers to "hope" or "confidence.")
Ezekiel 19:5

"She saw that her hope was lost..." (ὑπόστασις is "hope.")
Ezekiel 26:20

"...and you shall have no habitation." (ὑπόστασις means "habitation" or "foundation.")
Daniel 11:20

"...a tax collector will arise..." (ὑπόστασις means "standing" or "office.")
Wisdom of Solomon 16:21

"For your sustenance manifested your sweetness toward your children..." (ὑπόστασις is "sustenance.")
Wisdom of Solomon 17:12

"For fear is nothing else but the betrayal of the supports of reason." (ὑπόστασις means "supports.")
Sirach 2:23 (Ecclesiasticus)

"...and the prosperity of a man in his house." (ὑπόστασις is "prosperity.")
Sirach 16:23 (Ecclesiasticus)

"...the thoughts of an understanding heart will not be hidden." (ὑπόστασις is "foundation.")
Sirach 42:10 (Ecclesiasticus)

"In her virginity, lest she should be defiled and gotten with child in her father’s house..." (ὑπόστασις means "confidence" or "foundation.")
1 Maccabees 6:49

"...and the city had no provisions to withstand a siege." (ὑπόστασις refers to "provisions.")
Occurrences in the New Testament (5 times)
2 Corinthians 9:4

"...lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf." (ὑπόστασις is "basis" or "foundation.")
2 Corinthians 11:17

"What I speak, I speak not according to the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting." (ὑπόστασις is "confidence.")
Hebrews 1:3

"...the express image of His person..." (ὑπόστασις is "substance" or "essence.")
Hebrews 3:14

"...if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." (ὑπόστασις is "confidence.")
Hebrews 11:1

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (ὑπόστασις is "substance" or "assurance.")
These occurrences demonstrate the diverse semantic range of ὑπόστασις, from "substance" or "essence" to "confidence," "foundation," or "state."

Its theological significance, particularly in Hebrews 1:3, became pivotal in articulating Christological and Trinitarian doctrines.

J.

I think F2F's point was that while hupostasis has multiple meanings in the Bible, the sense in which it is used in Trinitarian thinking -- "substance" -- is a bit different from any of them.

Students of Greek and Latin who look at hypo and stasis as mirror images of sub and stantia are not quite hitting the nail on the head. I don’t want to downplay the importance of Hebrews 1:3 for Greek trinitarian theology, but we should be cautious in presuming that the author of Hebrews used the word in the exact same sense as, say, the Cappadocian Fathers did three centuries later.

 

[TigersPaw]

From today!


Let’s start discussing.

Father/ Son / Holy Spirit...all 3 are one...Amen or not Amen?

The concept is far easier then most realize in my opinion.
God does not have multiple personalities. No more then our eyes, ears and mouth that communicate our will are so.
The Trinity is basic.
First we must accept that God in how we view him does not exist, because we can not view him. Only his works.
As God is not within this world we speak of. Therefore we must put to rest his existence.
However the Holy Sprit and Christ do exist. We know that God is not of this place or universe
in where we exist. Because God could not create something he was already in. He was in nothing and created us.
And the Holy Spirit and Christ are simply means of communication made available to us.
It could be said that the Holy Spirit Guides Gods will, within us.
And Christ guides Gods Grace.
This could easily become a 10 page discussion. I believe when we stop complicating things, the three Trinity
make simple easy sense.
It is backed both theologically, and scientifically.

 

[Johann]

I think F2F's point was that while hupostasis has multiple meanings in the Bible, the sense in which it is used in Trinitarian thinking -- "substance" -- is a bit different from any of them.

Students of Greek and Latin who look at hypo and stasis as mirror images of sub and stantia are not quite hitting the nail on the head. I don’t want to downplay the importance of Hebrews 1:3 for Greek trinitarian theology, but we should be cautious in presuming that the author of Hebrews used the word in the exact same sense as, say, the Cappadocian Fathers did three centuries later.

I completely agree with you, @RedFan. This is why it’s so crucial to compare Scripture with Scripture, which consistently affirms the deity of the Messiah. Would you agree with this understanding as well?

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Once again, the Spirit has to reveal what that means by divine heart revelation.

I can’t take a guess of what that means in the flesh, as I’m in the spirit...I must wait to hear his voice and using the word, brings it to my understanding.

As of yet I have no understanding in my spirit what that means.

I rely 100% on the Spirit, to bring me to understanding Gods word.

Fair enough.

It seems that a plain reading informs us that Father God has prepared a place
for us to be with the Son in the afterlife. A room, or dwelling place.
A place for us to live with Him. Prepared for us.

John 14:2-3 NIV
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so,
would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and
take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

[

 

[amigo de christo]

Good Morning,

The best part of your question is the answer to it = God has already explained it for us!!!

However, God's explanation is not what the inquisitive mind of fallen man is seeking to be satisfied with.
For God 's mode of communication between Himself and us is the Word = His Word thru which requires faith unto understanding.
Sin laden mankind demands understanding BEFORE faith.

God's Way is faith leads us to understanding = Hebrews 11:3 = "By faith we understand........."

Genesis is the Beginning of 'The Faith' that pleases God = Genesis 1:1

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

Genesis 1:26 - "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness." = 3

This is just the Beginning of God's explanation.

true indeed my friend . By grace i remember when i first began to read the bible many moons ago .
In the beginning of my reading i read and i beleived it was true . Even though i did not understand it .
I could not truly grasp What JESUS meant when HE said the FATHER is greater than I , But i did beleive it .
I had seen what john wrote about GOD , about CHRIST. but i still could not understand , BUT STILL i beleived
what was written . In time the understanding came as i read and read and read on that lovely bible .
One day it just popped instantly into my mind ON HOW this was possible . AND when it did IT ONLY INCREASED MY FAITH MORE .
You see we but wee children . WE know not all things , But by grace we do know THEM WORDS IN THAT BIBLE ARE TRUTH
and ARE INSPIRED OF GOD . YOU SEE HE had implanted that TRUTH UPON MY HEART ON DAY ONE .
Though i lacked much understanding and knowledge . THE KEY IS , IF GOD INSPIRED IT , ITS TRUE and THERE ARE NO CONTRADICTIONS , only a lack of understanding on our part . But in time that lack of understanding
becometh UNDERSTANDING GIVEN BY GOD . Its now quite simply to prove what most see as contraditions , AS WRONG .
The rightly divided word of TRUTH clears things up and that BY GOD . A lamb loveth the words of the LORD
and though they might not know all , THEY KNOW THEM WORDS BE TRUTH and will not sit under men
who twist such words to suit their own lack of serious knowledge and falsehoods .
EVEN though i do not still know things , might not understand some things , STILL when a man
cometh to teach on something , ALARM bells always ring when its a lie . GOD KEEPS HIS SHEEP safe david .
CHRIST KEEPS HIS SHEEP safe david . THE SPIRIT keepth the lambs safe .
Our connection to GOD is THE SPIRIT of which it is the SPIRIT OF GOD AND OF CHRIST .
HIS WORDS BE OUR MEAT MY FRIEND . them words in that bible A LAMB LOVETH MY FRIEND . FOR GOD HAS PUT THAT LOVE
SHED BYTHE HOLY GHOST upon our wee tiny minds and hearts . WE OWE HIM ALL . now to the trenches
for its all out war for the souls of men and a sin accepting god and christ IS NOT GOD OR CHRIST nor did it come OF THE SPIRIT .
ANY who honors sin and UNBELIEF IN CHRIST , IS NO SERVANT OF HIM my freind . they serve another
who has produced this other image of what it says BE GOD , BE CHRIST and BE THE SPIRIT . but the lambs DONT HEED NO SUCH VOICE .

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler

The people Jesus was speaking to understood what he meant
when he said he was the I am and that he was before Abraham.

So funny how trinitarians reach for this kind of "support," relying on ignorant masses who misunderstood much of what Jesus said. A corollary to this is Jesus did not rebuke them AS IF he has that burden. Why don't you address the points I made in post #148?

Compare and contrast why each side holds their doctrine important. The best answer I get from trinitarians is to not believe it is to not respect Jesus for who he really is. Again, if this were important, it would be in Scripture's 66 books. By contrast, the importance of Jesus NOT being God cannot be overstated for 3 basic reasons:

1. Jesus is our ONLY mediator between us and God.
2. Jesus resurrection is the first fruit, meaning like to follow.
3. The wages of sin are only half paid. Trinitarianism denies our sins have been paid by the TOTAL sacrifice and death of the Son of God.

Trinitarians attempt to get around this by embracing dualism, which requires the abdication of logic; that he is this AND God. If Jesus were God, it means his resurrection is NOT the proof, our guarantee of like to follow, we have no mediator and we still owe the wages of our sin.

 

[Wrangler]

Well... there are three plurals. I can't get monotarianism out of that.

I did not say plural nouns are not part of the sentence. I am challenging you to interpret it without reading trinitarian doctrine into the text. It's easy if you try. Once one is open to speculating, one must be open to other speculations. Why speculation 1 but not 2 and 3?

2. Speaking to other Elohim, other heavenly beings, e,g., angels.​

3. Using Royal "We."​

 

[amigo de christo]

Absolute hogwash, Brother..I was Born Again..no knowledge of the trinity whatsoever..I rebuke their ridiculous claims that you aren’t Born Again ,if you don’t believe in the trinity

Correct that would be hogwash all right .
I clearly lack massive understanding on day one of my walk , BUT I WAS SAVED .
whoever taught that or implied that is how one is saved obvsiouly lacks serious understanding .
Here is the correct answer .
HOW then can we be saved . PETER said BELEIVE YE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
what must i do to be saved , paul and silas said BELIEVE YE ON JESUS the CHRIST .
They didnt say OH YE MUST BELEIVE THE TRINITY or etc .
UNDERSTANDING about things comes in time . SALVATION COMETH OF CHRIST .
and HE will teach The sheep and the sheep love HIS EVERY WORD for it is TRUTH .
Charity rejoices IN TRUTH . never a lie , never inquity .

 

[Wrangler]

Amen!

Sad that trinitarians are so devoted to the IDOL, they cannot acknowledge ANY of the many valid points against it, e.g., there is only "God the Father" in Scripture and every epistle identifies this one God and only this one God, not "God the Son" and not "God the HS."

 

[RedFan]

I completely agree with you, @RedFan. This is why it’s so crucial to compare Scripture with Scripture, which consistently affirms the deity of the Messiah. Would you agree with this understanding as well?

J.

I do think the Messiah is God, but I don't think the Scriptural support for it is, as you put it,"consistent." I think verses can be marshaled on both side of the issue (see my Post #42) -- largely because most NT authors (Paul being one) were not terribly concerned to advance the thesis. John's gospel comes closest.

 

[Ritajanice]

Sad that trinitarians are so devoted to the IDOL, they cannot acknowledge ANY of the many valid points against it, e.g., there is only "God the Father" in Scripture and every epistle identifies this one God and only this one God, not "God the Son" and not "God the HS."

Agree..there is only one God, he made the universe..

Jesus is not God.

The Holy Spirit is not God..they were sent by God.,in Jesus Name...Amen!

 

[Wrangler]

I don’t understand what you are saying in terms of Scripture verses but the trinity is not in the Bible.

I see, I can see why you got Quiet. You’re the one who made the claim. I just reacted to it. And I guess I hit a nerve.

Not at all. The trinity is not in the Bible. It's such a simple point, even a trinitarian can understand it.

Is 48:
Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.

1. The first question, who in scripture is called the first and the last. The alpha and omega? Is it not God?

This is pathetic. Isaiah said these words. Does that make him God?

did God send himself?

You can not get away from this

You cannot get away from the fact that prophets, like Isaiah and Jesus speak the words of God. It does not make them God.

Regarding the question of God sending himself, no. Jesus admits he was sent, proving he is not God. You cannot get away from this.

 

[rockytopva]

Trinity? Rapture? Same thing. Man made words describing biblical characteristics.... But... I believe in the Trinity! I believe in the Rapture!

Probably... Though... Differently than any other human on planet earth. But... That does not bother me!

 

[Ritajanice]

"God the Father

Amen!

 

[Wrangler]

The Holy Spirit is not God

The absurdity of the claim that the 3 in 1 are equal is best seen from the POV of the Holy Spirit. Given that God gave Jesus ALL authority in heaven and Earth, that does not leave much authority for the Holy Spirit. LOL

The easiest way to destroy the absurdity of the trinity is from the POV of the Holy Spirit and his lack of equality. (But we have to admit the passion for the trinity rests on the man-is-god thesis.) Going back to juxtaposition; just look at how they have to twist their thinking with the plain language that God gave Jesus all authority. This makes no sense if Jesus was God! 1 Corinthians 15:20-27 is what I call "Christianity's end game." Consider the reason in v27 for the exception?
For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.” (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)

The only reason for the exception is that Jesus is NOT God. Otherwise, what is the point exception of the sentence?

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is not God.

Again, going back to the absurdity of equality, the most powerful, demonstrable fact that Jesus is not God and not equal to God is that Jesus died. God did not.

Think about it. How can you say these 2 persons are equal when one cannot change or die and one did? God does not have a "human nature" like Jesus does. Even if you accept the Father and Holy Spirit are God, they have one nature; Spirit. They claim Jesus has 2.

In trinity land:

1 = 3 (persons)​

1 = 2 (natures)​

 

[rockytopva]

The old Virginia Pentecostal Holiness brother I used to put up hay with would run the aisles, speak in tongues, shout, and was an all around joyful Christian. When listening to him pray he would refer to the person praying to as... "Jesus God"

In which was unique... I have never heard anyone pray using only the reference "Jesus God" I also never criticized or question this as he seemed to relish so much in his relationship with Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit.