WOMEN ARE TO KEEP SILENT IN THE CHURCH
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There is more than one understanding of saved
[Mar 13:20 KJV] 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
This verse is referring to a physical deliverance in the flesh
[Luk 1:71 KJV] 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
Again, not being saved unto eternal life but a physical deliverance
[1Ti 2:12-15 KJV] 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Women are not to teach and usurp authority over men because of the order of creation but also because of Eve's transgression.
Women can be delivered from Eve's transgression by continuing in the faith and teaching good things, the things of God
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Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
ScottA
Well-Known Member
No...those are ALL images made manifest to be perceived as pointing to the salvation of those who are first born of the flesh, that they should also be born of the spirit of God.
So, you can take it from the scriptures that in God's great salvation plan All who are born of flesh and offered to be a Bride, are as women before the Lord; or you can take it from me; or you can think of yourself as better than God does (as more than a Bride/women--but as a Groom), in which case you are not qualified to be a Bride.
Your choice.
Day of Pentecost was everyone was speaking in their native language and they all understood each other.
And keep in mind Just because something happened once does not mean that is how it will always happen.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
MA2444
Well-Known Member
But just because they heard the men in their own language doesnt mean they were speaking to the men, they were still speaking unto God.
Just because God chose to let the other men hear their own language for a sign unto them doesnt negate anything. ! Corinthians 14:2 is still true!
1 Corinthians 14:2-6
[2]For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
[3]But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
[4]He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
[5]I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
[6]Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
Acts 2:16-18
[16]But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
[17]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
[18]And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
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Here are some of the words used and their original Greek meanings.
"sons"
Greek: υἱός
Transliteration: uihos
Pronunciation: hwee-os'
Definition: Apparently a primary word; a son (sometimes of animals) used very widely of immediate remote or figurative kinship: - child foal son.
KJV Usage: son (85x), Son of Man (with G444) (87x), Son of God (with G2316) (49x), child(ren) (49x), Son (42x), his Son (with G848) (21x), Son of David (with G1138) (15x), my beloved Son (with G27) (with G3350) (7x), thy Son (with G4575) (5x), only begotten Son (with G3339) (3x), his (David's) son (with G846) (3x), firstborn son (with G4316) (2x), misc (14x).
Occurs: 382
In verses: 348
"daughters"
Greek: θυγάτηρ
Transliteration: thugatēr
Pronunciation: thoo-gat'-air
Definition: Apparently a primary word (compare daughter); a female child or (by Hebraism) descendant (or inhabitant): - daughter.
KJV Usage: daughter (29x).
Occurs: 29
In verses: 28
Both of these have various meanings which encompass sons, daughters, and descendants (male and female).
"young men"
Greek: νεανίσκος
Transliteration: neaniskos
Pronunciation: neh-an-is'-kos
Definition: From the same as G3494; a youth (under forty): - young man.
KJV Usage: young man (10x).
Occurs: 10
In verses: 9
This word in the original Greek also simply means "a youth under 40." There is no gender specification. It's very likely that social norms of the day dictated how these words were translated.
"old men"
Greek: πρεσβύτερος
Transliteration: presbuteros
Pronunciation: pres-boo'-ter-os
Definition: Comparative of πρέσβυς presbus (elderly);
older; as noun a senior; specifically an Israelite Sanhedrist (also figuratively member of the celestial council) or Christian presbyter: - elder (-est) old.
KJV Usage: elder (64x), old man (1x), eldest (1x), elder woman (1x).
Occurs: 67
In verses: 67
Here again, this word when we look at the original Greek means "elder" and it can mean "old man" or "elder woman"
There are no gender exceptions where the Spirit of God is concerned.
Other points:
*A woman or young woman has to open her mouth and speak in a congregational setting in order to prophesy.
*This seems to contradict what Paul says in other passages. This obviously calls for what scripture calls "rightly dividing" the Word of God. ALL of scripture comes together to form a complete picture.
*Where does the law of God state that women are to keep silence? (Scripture, please?)
*Since this silence is not in the law of God, what law is Paul referring to?
"servants"
Greek: δοῦλος
Transliteration: doulos
Pronunciation: doo'-los
Definition: From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man) servant.
KJV Usage: servant (120x), bond (6x), bondman (1x).
Occurs: 127
In verses: 119
"handmaids"
Greek: δούλη
Transliteration: doulē
Pronunciation: doo'-lay
Definition: Feminine of G1401; a female slave (involuntarily or voluntarily): - handmaid (-en).
KJV Usage: handmaiden (2x), handmaid (1x).
Occurs: 3
In verses: 3
Then, there's the husband and wife team, Priscilla and Aquila who took a man (Apollos) into the church that was in their home and (both) taught Apollos in the ways of God.
Acts 18:24-26
[24]And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
[25]This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
[26]And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
So here, we have a woman teaching a man. No mention is made otherwise, or that she was only a listener, a sidekick, or a lesser participant. She is mentioned as a helper/co-laborer and as having taught a man named Apollos. The church was in their home, and Priscilla taught in the church that was in their home, as did her husband, Aquila.
Paul commended and recommended both equally. He actually mentions Priscilla ahead of her husband, Aquila, in this verse.
Romans 16:3
[3]Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
"helpers"
Greek: συνεργός
Transliteration: sunergos
Pronunciation: soon-er-gos'
Definition: From a presumed compound of G4862 and the base of G2041; a co-laborer that is coadjutor: - companion in labour (fellow-) helper (-labourer -worker) labourer together with workfellow.
KJV Usage: fellowlabourer (4x), helper (3x), fellowhelper (2x), fellowworkers (1x), workfellow (1x), labourer together with (1x), companion in labour (1x).
Occurs: 13
In verses: 13
Again, both genders are included equally.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
You were talking about the 3000 people who heard them speaking in tongues. Do you believe they heard their own languages naturally or supernaturally?
His own language, the language each grew up with, they heard the Gospel clearly, for 3,000 of them were saved,
They were amazed, since the ones who spoke were mere Galileans, group of unlearned peasants.
These are gift of tongues of men, to proclaim and disciple the Gospel to all nation, kindred and tongue.
On the other hand, the congregation receive the gift of tongues of angels, spoken up for the 'sanctification' of the church.
Only when one interprets what is spoken, in their own common language that every one in the congregation understands.
As when the congregation understands clearly, and together they may end with, Amen, hence, all are 'sanctified'.
While speaking in this tongue only two or three are allowed to speak at one time, while the others take turns.
If there's no interpretation, it's pointless to speak, since it will only benefit the one who speaks.
The one who ignores and continues, only violate the love for GOD and for fellow church brethren.
And the church who permit it anyway and let loose all speak at one time without interpretation.
Are considered by outsiders as 'crazy people', and to GOD as workers of lawlessness or iniquity.
Shalom in the name of Jesus.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
It had to be supernaturally. Because the men speaking did not know the language of the 3000.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
The "law" being referred to here was the "vain traditions" of the Jewish ORAL LAW which had developed in the first century. Jewish religious leaders forbad the Torah to be taught to daughters, and men who allowed their daughters to read the Torah for themselves had a curse pronounced against them by the various rabbis.
Both 1 Cor. 14:34 and 35 are a QUOTE copied from the Corinthian church's letter sent to Paul, and to which Paul responded with shock and disgust in 1 Cor. 14:36-39. Paul in 1 Cor. 14:36-39 corrected the error which the Corinthian church men had stated in 1 Cor. 14:34-35 and commanded them to "Forbid NOT to speak in tongues" in the church. Restrictions of women speaking in the church is the only "forbidding" being discussed in this 1 Cor. 14 context, and Paul was absolutely clear that those restrictions on women speaking in the church were a gross error on the part of the Corinthian men.
Rather than posit 14:34-35 as a quote (an argument I have seen espoused by KIrk MacGregor but rather convincingly refuted by Philip Payne), I'll propose an alternative suggestion: that verses 34-35 are a later addition and not original to Paul.
Then, there's the husband and wife team, Priscilla and Aquila who took a man (Apollos) into the church that was in their home and (both) taught Apollos in the ways of God.
Acts 18:24-26
Ministry of Apollos
24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; 28 for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.This was not done in a church of believers during a church service. No mention of any church at all.
This occurred in a synagogue of unbelieving jews.
Paul was very specific in his instruction, and It was private, NOT public teaching done in a church of believers during a church service.
Why do people not accept the word? See they twist the word, to get around the commandments of God.
It is like trying to enter the sheepfold by another door, climbing up some other way, and that is what thieves and robbers do.
Jesus's promise is the sheep won't hear them.
How so then this instruction from Paul to Timothy for the church again saying Paul does not permit women to speak in church but to remain silent?
Men and Women in the Church
8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and [e]moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
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Your idea of women commanded to be silent in church being a false teaching that Paul was correcting as coming from a letter from the church to Paul is proven false by what Paul teaches in 1 Timothy 2
A woman was not permitted to speak in a church service, not to teach anything at all to men, it's clearly written.
To learn in silence, means like it did in the other Pauline letter, not to interrupt the church service by asking questions during the service.
I don't know any men that do that either.
I don't see any reason they cannot sing, or give announcements in church, just no teaching from the scriptures about spiritual matters and no speaking out in church meeting during the teaching.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Actually women can preach in the Pulpit, teach from the Pulpit, teach Sunday School., have a TV Ministry or Radio Ministry, or ONLINE Ministry.
They can be Preachers, Teachers, Missionaries... Prophets... .Bible Translators... Deaconesses. Christian Authors, Christian Musicians......Worship Leaders... and more.
What can't they do?
They can't do this... as Paul teaches...they can't "be the HUSBAND of one WIFE", (A Male)...... and that is a requirement to be a PASTOR of a Local CHURCH.
[1Ti 2:12 KJV] 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
As stated in the above verse women are not to teach in the assembly
They can teach outside the assembly
If they are to be in silence and not usurp authority, they could not preach from the pulpit
Behold
Well-Known Member
Yes, in that situation, 2000 yrs ago, when Local Assemblies were in a person's house.......and they were set up like this..
Men on one side and their wives on the other, with the children.
So, what Paul is doing, is getting that organized... eliminating all the chaos......according to Paul's situation.. and that is why He said... "I DONT">. vs, the Holy Spirit doesn't.
Paul does use as his reason that Adam was created first, so he's showing divine order.
So, 2000 ys later, ministers are both male and female, as they were in the OT, as well...
The only stipulation is.. "HUSBAND of one wife, can be a Pastor"..... and a woman can't be a HUSBAND.. as that is a MALE...so she can't be a PASTOR.
That's unscriptural.
Jesus also did not have any women disciples or any women apostles.
And there were no major OT prophets that were women.
Miriam who prophesied, joined in the rebellion against Moses
Saul the king also prophesied but killed the Lord's priests and troubled the people of Israel and he was rejected by God, as did Baalam who taught Israel to commit sexual immorality, so just because there were 'mad prophets' does not mean they were approved of God.
Number 12
1 Miriam and Aaron rebelled against Moses on account of the Cushite woman that he had married. 2 They asked, “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses? Hasn’t he also spoken through us?”
But the Lord heard it.
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The Lord has also heard all the words spoken by women teaching men from the scriptures in churches.
Jesus told us this,
Matthew 4:7
Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ”
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1 Timothy 2
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
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