Were Jesus's brothers born of another woman?

[LuxMundy]

I believe you.

I didn't think that you wouldn't believe me.

I take it that this is a rhetorical question and will treat it as such.

It's not. So, again, if I'm shown the truth, and I accept the truth, then why would I believe anything other than the truth?

Not knowingly.

So, if you also wouldn't knowingly believe anything other than the truth, then would you file anything that you believe to be true under "Things that are non-sequiturs in conversations with Jewish monotheists?

 

[Matthias]

It's not.

That’s wild.

So, if you also wouldn't knowingly believe anything other than the truth, then would you file anything that you believe to be true under "Things that are non-sequiturs in conversations with Jewish monotheists?

What? The topic is the perpetual virginity of Mary.

 

[LuxMundy]

That’s wild.

I didn't ask it rhetorically. So, again, if I'm shown the truth, and I accept the truth, then why would I believe anything other than the truth?

What? The topic is the perpetual virginity of Mary.

You can apply my question to whatever topic you like. So, if you also wouldn't knowingly believe anything other than what you believe to be true about Mary or anything else, then would you file anything that you believe to be true under "Things that are non-sequiturs in conversations with Jewish monotheists"?

 

[Matthias]

I didn't ask it rhetorically. So, again, if I'm shown the truth, and I accept the truth, then why would I believe anything other than the truth?

I presume that you wouldn’t. Were you anticipating me saying something different?

You can apply my question to whatever topic you like. So, if you also wouldn't knowingly believe anything other than what you believe to be true about Mary or anything else, then would you file anything that you believe to be true under "Things that are non-sequiturs in conversations with Jewish monotheists"?

Yes, I would.

 

[LuxMundy]

I presume that you wouldn’t. Were you anticipating me saying something different?

I wouldn't presume that you wouldn't presume that I wouldn't which is why I asked. So, if I, a Catholic, believe to have been shown the truth about Mary through Scripture, the testimonies of the early Church fathers, a modern day spokesperson of Jesus, and so on, and I accept that truth about Her, then why seemingly criticize Catholics for that?

Yes, I would.

Then, what was your point in saying, "I’m filing this under 'Things that are non-sequiturs in conversations with Catholics'"?

 

[Matthias]

I wouldn't presume that you wouldn't presume that I wouldn't which is why I asked.

I wouldn’t have thought to seriously ask anyone the question you asked me. I’m still surprised that you did. At least now you know; that is, if you believe what I said. Why does it matter to you?

So, if I, a Catholic, am shown the truth about Mary through Scripture, the testimonies of the early Church fathers, a modern day spokesperson of Jesus, and so on, and I accept that truth about Her, then why seemingly criticize Catholics for that?

That’s not what the non-Catholics are criticizing Catholics for. Surely you must know that.

Then, what was your point in saying, "I’m filing this under 'Things that are non-sequiturs in conversations with Catholics'"?

It would be pointless at best; antagonizing at worst. Counterproductive.

 

[LuxMundy]

I wouldn’t have thought to seriously ask anyone the question you asked me. I’m still surprised that you did.

I think more than most people.

That’s not what the non-Catholics are criticizing Catholics for. Surely you must know that.

What I'm saying is it seems you're criticizing Catholics for not believing anything other than what they have reason to believe to be true, same as you.

It would be pointless at best; antagonizing at worst.

Why is refusing to believe anything other than what one has reason to believe to be true pointless at best and antagonizing at worst?

 

[amigo de christo]

What ever what does that have to do with anything keep your Satan preaching to yourself I am simply making a point.Another guy who preaches Satan all day long and says nothing of Jesus there are lots of them.

That would make Luther from Satan too because he believed in her virginity the leader of the reformed Christian Church are you willing to go there?

well i sure as heck dont follow luther . but i dont know much about the man to call him of satan . maybe just messed
a few things up . As far as the RCC , you really aint gonna like a word i gotta say about that place . BELIEVE you me
not a word will you like . so i will leave you to understand that yeah i dont support that place either .

 

[Matthias]

I think more than the average person.

Good on you.

What I'm saying is it seems you're criticizing Catholics for not believing anything other than what they believe to be true, same as you.

Thanks for letting me know. I’m not.

Why is refusing to believe anything other than what they have reason to believe is true pointless at best and antagonizing at worst?

It isn’t, and that’s not what I said. There are some topics that they are so entrenched in that engaging them in conversation on those topics would be pointless and antagonizing.

 

[LuxMundy]

me (a Jewish monotheist)

Isn't the title "Jewish monotheist" redundant considering religious Jews are expected to only believe and worship in the one God?

Good on you.

Overthinking is just a trait, and it's not always only good, as in beneficial. Anyway, I only brought it up to explain why I asked such a question in a non-rhetorical way. Now, usually I do ask it rhetorically, but I thought answering it would be effective as well.

A 17 year-old Roman Catholic friend and classmate of mine told me something at school one day that still stands out in my mind 50 years later: “You might as well ask a Catholic to believe the devil is God as to ask a Catholic to believe that Mary didn’t remain a virgin throughout her life.”

Blunt and to the point.

If I’m on Team Catholic, I’m applauding. If I’m not - and I’m not - I’m filing this under “Things that are non-sequiturs in conversations with Catholics”.

There are some topics that they are so entrenched in that engaging them in conversation on those topics would be pointless and antagonizing.

So, you're entrenched in the belief that Catholics just dogmatically believe what the Church tells them without question because of something a 17 year old told you 50 years ago?

 

[Matthias]

Isn't the title "Jewish monotheist" redundant considering religious Jews are expected to only believe and worship in the one God?

No. Jewish monotheism is unitarian. The one God is only one person, the Father.

Overthinking is just a trait, and it's not always only good, as in beneficial. Anyway, I only brought it up to explain why I asked such a question in a non-rhetorical way. Now, usually I do ask it rhetorically, but I thought answering it would be effective as well.

That’s fine. I’m a civil engineer by training and profession. It’s an occupational hazard of engineers, in general, to “over think” even the simplest of matters. As you say, it can be a good trait.

So, you're entrenched in the belief that Catholics just dogmatically believe what the Church tells them without question because of something a 17 year old told you 50 years ago?

No. I’m entrenched in that belief - when the subject is dogmas of the Catholic Church - because of what dozens of Catholic priests, deacons and nuns have told me over the past forty years.

The 17 year-old just stated it in a way that stood out to the 17 year-old me. As you can see, it made quite an impression on me.

What about you? I posted a link to an article written by a Catholic talking about what Catholics must believe and why they must believe it. (See post #393.) Do you personally reject what that Catholic source presented?

 

[LuxMundy]

No. Jewish monotheism is unitarian. The one God is only one person, the Father.

Monotheism is the belief in one God. Judaism is a monotheistic religion because it's centered in the belief of one God. That's why your title of "Jewish monotheist" is redudant considering religious Jews are expected to believe in and worship the one God.

I’m entrenched in that belief - when the subject is dogmas of the Catholic Church - because of what dozens of Catholic priests, deacons and nuns have told me over the past forty years. [...] What about you? I posted a link to an article written by a Catholic talking about what Catholics must believe and why they must believe it. (See post #393.) Do you personally reject what that Catholic source presented?

First, what have they told you?

 

[Matthias]

Monotheism is the belief in one God. Judaism is a monotheistic religion because it's centered in the belief of one God. That's why your title of "Jewish monotheist" is redudant considering religious Jews are expected to believe in and worship the one God.

It isn’t redundant at all. It’s very well-known that Jewish monotheism is more than just belief in and worship of only one God. I’ve mentioned Gregory of Nyssa in several conversations. His comment about the need to destroy the dogma of Jewish monotheism points to the reason for it - unitarianism. It’s a brilliant quote and deserves a wide hearing. Gregory most definitely was not asserting that it was necessary to destroy belief and worship of only one God.

Have you read it? If you haven’t I’ll quote him for you.

First, what have they told you?

They’ve told me what the article I drew your attention to tells us about the relationship of Catholics to Church dogma.

P.S.

My dogma is Jewish monotheism. More important than that, Jesus’ dogma is Jewish monotheism.

 

[Matthias]

Monotheism is the belief in one God. Judaism is a monotheistic religion because it's centered in the belief of one God.

That’s right, as far as it goes. The problem is that it doesn’t go far enough.

Your dogma destroyed my dogma. The testimony of my witness, Gregory of Nyssa, is someone whom I would expect you to trust.

We are, however, moving away at this point from the topic of this thread.

 

[LuxMundy]

That’s right, as far as it goes. The problem is that it doesn’t go far enough.

The definition of monotheism being "the belief in one God" and Judaism being considered a monotheistic religion because's it's centered in the belief of one God when there's one God is a problem and insufficient? That doesn't make any sense.

And, it's redundant to give yourself the title "Jewish monotheist (one who believes in one God)" when Judaism is considered a monotheistic religion because it's centered in the belief of one God, and thus religious Jews are expected to believe in and worship the one God.

They’ve told me what the article I drew your attention to tells us about the relationship of Catholics to Church dogma.

Well, you're older than whoever wrote that article, so just tell me what dozens of priests, deacons, and nuns have told you for the past forty years. I'm 36 years old, and I've never spoken to any Catholic, including my own Mother, priests, deacons, and nuns, who said to me, "You must believe this, or the Church will do that to you."

 

[Matthias]

The definition of monotheism being "the belief in one God" and Judaism being considered a monotheistic religion because's it's centered in the belief of one God when there's one God is a problem and insufficient? That doesn't make any sense.

See Gregory of Nyssa. What I’m saying should make perfect sense to you when you do. Gregory was certainly in a position to know.

Well, you're older than whoever wrote that article, so just tell me what dozens of priests, deacons, and nuns have told you over forty years. I'm 36 years old, and I've never spoken to any Catholic, including my own Mother, priests, deacons, and nuns, who said to me, "You must believe this, or the Church will do that to you."

Wow! You really should take advantage of the opportunity. Ask them whether or not you must agree with Catholic dogma. It is with your best interest in mind that I recommend this to you.

 

[LuxMundy]

See Gregory of Nyssa. It should make perfect sense to you when you do.

I'm talking to you right now, not Gregory of Nyssa. You're perfectly capable of explaining how it's a problem and insufficient that the definition of monotheism is "the belief in one God" and that Judaism is considered a monotheistic religion because's it's centered in the belief of one God when there's in fact one God.

Wow! You really should take advantage of the opportunity. Ask them whether or not you must agree with Catholic dogma.

Wouldn't have at least one Catholic in the past 36 years have told me, a fellow Catholic, that "You must believe this, or the Church will do that to you" since even you, a non-Catholic, were supposedly told that by dozens of priests, deacons, and nuns over the past 40 years?

 

[Matthias]

I'm talking to you right now, not Gregory of Nyssa. You're perfectly capable of explaining how it's a problem and insufficient that the definition of monotheism is "the belief in one God" and that Judaism is considered a monotheistic religion because's it's centered in the belief of one God when there's in fact one God.

Why would you prefer listening to a unitarian explain it to you, which I have, instead of one of the most important figures in Catholic history?

When I’m speaking with Catholics, I use Catholic sources. I meet them where they are. I seldom, if ever, would use a unitarian source in those conversations. Why? Experience has shown me that they are almost always rejected out of hand.

Wouldn't they have told me, a Catholic, that "You must believe this, or the Church will do that to you" since even you, a non-Catholic, were supposedly told that by "dozens of priests, deacons, and nuns?"

They should have. I’m very surprised to hear you say that they haven’t.

 

[LuxMundy]

Why would you prefer listening to a unitarian explain it to you, which I have, instead of one of the most important figures in Catholic history?

I didn't say that I prefer anything. I said that you're perfectly capable of explaining why you think it's a problem and insufficient that the definition of monotheism is "the belief in one God" and that Judaism is considered a monotheistic religion because's it's centered in the belief of one God when there is in fact one God. So, if you are, then explain your belief.

They should have. I’m very surprised to hear you say that they haven’t.

I'm surprised that not even one Catholic in the past 36 years have told me, a fellow Catholic, that "You must believe this, or the Church will do that to you" since you, a non-Catholic, were supposedly told that by dozens of priests, deacons, and nuns over the past 40 years. So, why should I think that the countless number of Catholics I've talked to on and off the internet should have told me?

 

[Matthias]

I didn't say that I prefer anything. I said that you're perfectly capable of explaining why you think it's a problem and insufficient that the definition of monotheism is "the belief in one God" and that Judaism is considered a monotheistic religion because's it's centered in the belief of one God when there is in fact one God. So, if you are, then explain your belief.

I’ve already explained it to you. My God is only one person, the God and Father of Messiah Jesus. That is Jewish monotheism.

I'm surprised that not even one Catholic in the past 36 years have told me, a fellow Catholic, that "You must believe this, or the Church will do that to you" since you, a non-Catholic, were supposedly told that by dozens of priests, deacons, and nuns over the past 40 years.

You aren’t nearly as surprised as I am.

Have they at least taught you that Jesus is not a human person?