Were Jesus's brothers born of another woman?

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PGS11

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He only had one adopted father on earth which was Joseph so what are you saying it was not him? I don't need to prove anything with a bible line.

We strive every day to be close to Jesus he protected his disciples but apparently he could careless about his mother she was just something to be used and tossed aside.Sorry Jesus would of followed the commandment.She had Jesus beside her the whole time but that apparently is not enough.I guess if Jesus is walking with me I will still sin in his sight knowing who he is and that he will have to die for it.I just wouldn't care would I?Mary knew exactly who Jesus was there was no ignorance there or its on Jesus.

He will save us but let his mother go to hell hmmmm.I would say he broke the commandment if that happens by failing to protect her.
 
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LuxMundy

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He only had one adopted father on earth which was Joseph so what are you saying it was not him?

Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) are only called Jesus's brothers, or "ἀδελφοί" in Koine Greek, and it has the following definitions: "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "kinsman/kinswoman, or relative".

Yes, in Matt. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, the context shows that its applicable definition is "kinsman, or relative". However, one's male kinsmen/relatives could be not only siblings but also cousins, nephews, or uncles, etc. So, do you have any evidence that you believe actually shows those kinsmen/relatives of Jesus were His siblings?
 

PGS11

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Its in the Gospel of Mark and it says he has 4 brothers and two sisters go look and they are with Jesus mother.

So your theory is Mary was sleeping around with the son of God at her side?

Joseph was a older man who took Mary in to prevent scandal it was also a very religious society not like today were she may of even been stoned to death it was also in the middle of a Roman invasion.He rejected her in the bible.A Angel came and told him to marry her and to call the baby Jesus and that the baby was the son of God. A Angel came later and told him to take them to Egypt.It was not unusual for a older man to take a young wife in those times.Joseph knew all of this but I guess he forgot what happened - would you?

Sorry the TV and Movie version of them as two teenagers in love is anything but the truth.
 
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LuxMundy

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Its in the Gospel of Mark and it says he has 4 brothers and two sisters go look and they are with Jesus mother.

Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus), and the unnamed women are only called Jesus's brothers and sisters, and they have the following definitions in Koine Greek: "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "kinsman/kinswoman, or relative".

In Matt. 13:55-56 and Mk. 6:3-4, the context shows that its applicable definition is "kinsman/kinswoman, or relative". However, one's male/female kinsmen/kinswomen, or relatives could be not only siblings but also cousins, nephews, nieces, uncles, aunts, etc. And, the evidence that you believe proves those kinsmen/kinswomen, or relatives of Jesus were His siblings is merely the fact that they were present with Jesus and His Mother... How so? And, is it not possible for Jesus's kinsmen/kinswomen, or relatives that were present with Him and His Mother to have been cousins, uncles, aunts, etc?

So your theory is Mary was sleeping around with the son of God at her side?

No, and I've said nothing which indicated that.
 
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GodsGrace

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No. Jesus' other brothers were born of Mary. Catholics have this nonsense idea that Mary never had other kids but that is a lie. And the idea that there was another woman around is also impossible to consider as, since Joseph is not mentioned at all during Jesus' ministry there is good reason to believe he had died before Jesus began His ministry and with Mary still alive that would have made Joseph and adulterer if he was still around
But it means Joseph had a different WIFE before he married Mary.
Maybe she had died.
Joseph was quite older than Mary was...her age is put at 15 or 16 years of age.

Please rethink what it means that Jesus had half brothers...
No adultery.
 

GodsGrace

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No. sorry it is perfectly true. Its not even in the bible that Joseph had other children before Mary. People who dont even know the Greek language have to quit pretending they are experts just because they use a Strongs.
Agreed.

Strong's is an incomplete source....there's just too much to know.
 

GodsGrace

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Part II

Below I address other scriptural verses believed to support that Joseph and Mary had other children.

Ps. 69:8

In this verse, the Koine Greek word used is "υἱός", or "sons" in English. This verse is a foreshadowing of Jesus being made an outcast among His own people. The "mother's son's" represents others from His motherland, in this case other Jews from the land of Israel.

Matt. 1:25

In preceding verses 20-24, Matthew speaks about the ways in which the long-awaited messianic prophecy has come to fruition, such as Joseph accepting as his Spouse the Virgin Who will conceive and give birth to a Son. In verse 25, he reiterates and reinforces this by referring to a specific period: pre-birth of the Messiah, a period of known chastity between Joseph and Mary that would dispel any belief that He was not begotten by the Holy Spirit, nor born of the virgin. [Note: This in and of itself does not indicate whether Joseph and Mary did have or didn't have a carnal married life, or children, post-birth of the Messiah.]

Jn. 2:12

In this scene, Jesus's brothers were two of His four cousins, James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus, and His disciples were Peter and Andrew, who later became two of His twelve elected apostles, and they accompanied Him and His Mother to Capernaum. Certain details aren't from any of the accounts of the Four Evangelists, as they are incomplete, but rather from The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I, where the gaps in the four Gospels of Christ, brought about by natural causes and supernatural will, were filled in by Jesus through His spokesperson, Maria Valtorta. (See the first four links in my signature)

Matt. 12:46, Mk. 3:31-32, Lk. 8:19-20

In this scene, Jesus's brothers who arrived with His Mother to speak with Him at Capernaum were two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus. Joseph and Simon heard that Jesus had recently done carpentry work in Korazim for a widow whose husband had died, and they were angry at Him for earning money for her and her children, but not His own Mother, and were there to confront Him about it, but Jesus set them straight. Certain details aren't from any of the accounts of the Four Evangelists, as they are incomplete, but rather from The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, where the gaps in the four Gospels of Christ, brought about by natural causes and supernatural will, were filled in by Jesus through His spokesperson, Maria Valtorta. (See the first four links in my signature)

Matt. 13:57, Mk. 6:4

In this verse, the definitions for the following Koine Greek words are (I) συγγενής(pl. syngenēs), “kindred, akin;, as a subst. a kinsman or kinswoman, relative,” which can refer to various types of family members, (II) οἰκία (sing. oikia), “a house, dwelling, an abode, Mt. 2:11; 7:24, 27; trop. the bodily abode of the soul, 2 Cor. 5:1; meton. a household, family, Mt. 10:13; 12:25; meton. goods, property, means, Mt. 23:13", and in some households there’s only the parents and their only child, who may or may not have other types of family members living with them as well, and so on.

Jn. 7:3-5;10

In this scene, Jesus's brothers were two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus, who didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, though they later came to believe this. Certain details aren't from any of the accounts of the Four Evangelists, as they are incomplete, but rather from The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God: IV, where the gaps in the four Gospels of Christ, brought about by natural causes and supernatural will, were filled in by Jesus through His spokesperson, Maria Valtorta. (See the first four links in my signature)

Ac. 1:14

In this scene, Jesus's brothers were disciples, some of whom were the shepherds that visited Him the night of His birth. Certain details aren't from any of the accounts of the Four Evangelists, as they are incomplete, but rather from The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. V, where the gaps in the four Gospels of Christ, brought about by natural causes and supernatural will, were filled in by Jesus through His spokesperson, Maria Valtorta. (See the first four links in my signature)

Gal. 1:18-19

Paul mentioned that in Jerusalem he had seen Peter, one of the twelve apostles, but that he didn't see another one of the apostles, except James the Lord’s brother. The title "the Lord's brother" indicates that James was Jesus’s kinsman/relative, and the context of these verses indicates that he was also one of the Twelve. This means that he would have had to have either been apostle James of Zebedee or apostle James of Alphaeus, and neither of them were a son of Joseph and Mary, yet still a kinsman/relative of Jesus. So, which of these apostles was Jesus's kinsman/relative, and how were they related? Refer back to post #4.

1 Cor. 9:5

In this scene, Jesus's brothers (kinsmen/relatives), more specifically cousins, were the apostles James and Judas of Alphaeus. [Note: It's not a problem that James was mentioned separately from the rest of the apostles, because in the same verse Cephas (Peter) was also mentioned separately from the rest of the apostles, though he was still one of them.]

1 Cor. 15:5;7

In 1 Cor. 15:5, Jesus appeared to the apostle Peter, then to the Twelve, and thus He was seen by Peter twice. Regarding 1 Cor. 15:7, if "all the apostles" referred to "all other apostles", then Paul, an "other” apostle, would've been included with them, but He was seen and mentioned separately from them and lastly. Therefore, Jesus appeared to one of the James of the Twelve, then to "all of the [twelve] apostles", and thus He was seen by James twice.
asoul,,,
I commend you. You put a lot of work into this and have made a very complete study.

I'm not going to participate because I don't think we can ever really know.
Joe Heschmeyer (?) wrote a book about this as have many others.

All I want to say is that even some Catholic theologians can agree that Joseph MIGHT have had other children.
I just don't know enough. Just a thought.
 

GodsGrace

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Nowhere in Scripture is that stated or implied.
Agreed.
This is why it's conjecture.

I said I admire the study you've put into this.
Some verses do seem to imply that Jesus had actual brothers.

IS THIS NOT JESUS, THE SON OF THE CARPENTER?
AND ARE THESE NOT HIS BROTHERS?

If it were cousins....why even mention them?
 
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LuxMundy

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Some verses do seem to imply that Jesus had actual brothers.

IS THIS NOT JESUS, THE SON OF THE CARPENTER?
AND ARE THESE NOT HIS BROTHERS?

If it were cousins....why even mention them?

Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus), and the unnamed women are only called Jesus's brothers and sisters, and they have the following definitions in Koine Greek: "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "kinsman/kinswoman, or relative".

In Matt. 13:55-56 and Mk. 6:3-4, the context shows that their applicable definition is "kinsman/kinswoman, or relative". However, one's male/female kinsmen/kinswomen, or relatives could be not only siblings but also cousins, nephews, nieces, uncles, aunts, etc.

Why do you say that Jesus's kinsmen/kinswomen, or relatives were His siblings in those verses?

Do you not think it possible for Jesus's kinsmen/kinswomen, or relatives that were present with Him and His Mother to have been cousins, uncles, aunts, etc?
 

GodsGrace

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Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus), and the unnamed women are only called Jesus's brothers and sisters, and they have the following definitions in Koine Greek: "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "kinsman/kinswoman, or relative".

In Matt. 13:55-56 and Mk. 6:3-4, the context shows that their applicable definition is "kinsman/kinswoman, or relative". However, one's male/female kinsmen/kinswomen, or relatives could be not only siblings but also cousins, nephews, nieces, uncles, aunts, etc.

Why do you say that Jesus's kinsmen/kinswomen, or relatives were His siblings in those verses?

Do you not think it possible for Jesus's kinsmen/kinswomen, or relatives that were present with Him and His Mother to have been cousins, uncles, aunts, etc?
It's possible.
What I said is that we can't know for sure since even scholars are not sure.
Do you believe that EVERY Catholic scholar believes Jesus had no siblings (born in any manner)?
Do you believe that every Protestant scholar believes Jesus absolutely had no brothers?

The lines are clouding.
It's pretty late here. I'm going to post a link and tomorrow morning I'd like to maybe spend some time on this which will include the ECFs.
I tend to abide by what they believed --- when it was unanimous.

It's a site about Mary and it seems to be as neutral as possible.

 

face2face

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PS - yes, I DID notice that you completely ignored my Biblical evidence about Mary have NO other children than Jesus.
It has to be this way for you doesn't it? Confirmation bias demands it!
Out of interest, if the Lord told you, you were wrong could you accept it and what would be the consequences of accepting his Word?
F2F
 

Matthias

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“A dogma is a truth proclaimed by the Church to which the Christians owes ‘an irrevocable adherence of faith.’ (CCC, 88) In other words, dogma is not up for debate; it is something a Catholic must believe. Dogmas are essential.“


The perpetual virginity of Mary is a dogma. Non-Catholics participating in this thread have to understand that this is non-negotiable for a Catholic. Whatever the non-Catholic objection to the dogma might be, it is wrong in the mind of the Catholic. It simply cannot be otherwise.
 
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LuxMundy

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It's possible.

What makes you say that it's implied that Jesus's kinsmen/kinswomen, or relatives in Matt. 13:55-56 and Mk. 6:3-4 were His siblings and not any other types of kinsmen/kinswomen, or relatives?

Do you believe that EVERY Catholic scholar believes Jesus had no siblings (born in any manner)?
Do you believe that every Protestant scholar believes Jesus absolutely had no brothers?

I believe that there will always be people who disagree with what's true but don't think they do.

I believe in the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources (early Christian Church Fathers), that collectively show the following in post #4:
  • Jesus's brothers (kinsmen/relatives) Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55 and Mk.6:3 were the sons of His Mother's Spouse's brother, Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and his wife Mary of Clopas (Cleophas/Alphaeus), the sister [in-law] of Mary of Joseph (Jn. 19:25), and thus His cousins

  • Jesus's cousins James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus were the same people as the apostles James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas) of the Twelve

  • Jesus's cousin and apostle James of Alphaeus of the Twelve was the same person as "James the Less", "James the brother of the Lord", "James the Just", "James the first bishop of Jerusalem", and the author of the Epistle of James

In addition to the above, I believe that Jesus once again confirmed through His spokesperson Maria Valtorta that His brothers (kinsmen/relatives) Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of His Mother's Spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary, and thus His cousins.
 
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Aunty Jane

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“A dogma is a truth proclaimed by the Church to which the Christians owes ‘an irrevocable adherence of faith.’ (CCC, 88) In other words, dogma is not up for debate; it is something a Catholic must believe. Dogmas are essential.“


The perpetual virginity of Mary is a dogma. Non-Catholics participating in this thread have to understand that this is non-negotiable for a Catholic. Whatever the non-Catholic objection to the dogma might be, it is wrong in the mind of the Catholic. It simply cannot be otherwise.
Repeating the same things over and over again as if it was not dismissed or at least put into the realms of not specific enough for Catholic indoctrination to accept, the main point of the whole issue is why Mary and Joseph could not have been a normal married Jewish couple who added to their family, siblings with whom Jesus grew up as their older brother….Mary’s firstborn son. Large families were viewed a a blessing from God. Why would God NOT bless their union?

If there was even a suggestion that there was an impediment to their union being blessed with more children, there would at least be room for conjecture……but there is nothing but silence. The one and only reason for the perpetual virginity of Mary is the adopted belief in mother goddess worship, which was accepted and promoted by the apostate church.

What does the church itself admit…?
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The Greek words . . . that are used to designate the relationship between Jesus and these relatives have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek-speaking world of the Evangelist’s time and would naturally be taken by his Greek reader in this sense.”

Also, The New American Bible, a Catholic translation, admits in a footnote on Mark 6:1-6, where Jesus’ brothers and sisters are mentioned……“The question of meaning here would not have arisen but for the faith of the church in Mary’s perpetual virginity.” Not a fact of Scripture at all.

Jesuit priest Ignace de la Potterie stated that…. “In several ancient (pagan) religions,” “virginity had a sacral value. Certain goddesses (Anath, Artemis, Athena) were called virgins.” Yet, what does that have to do with Mary? Catholic priest Andrew Greeley exposed it’s pagan roots…..“The Mary symbol links Christianity directly to the ancient religions of mother goddesses.”
All the titles given to the mother goddesses were transferred to Mary. None are found in the Bible.

Since God’s word itself makes no mention of these things, it is obvious that dogma is so deeply entrenched in Catholic indoctrination, that it cannot be overcome by reasoning on scripture.
 
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LuxMundy

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Repeating the same things over and over again as if it was not dismissed or at least put into the realms of not specific enough for Catholic indoctrination to accept, the main point of the whole issue is why Mary and Joseph could not have been a normal married Jewish couple who added to their family, siblings with whom Jesus grew up as their older brother….Mary’s firstborn son.

Joseph and Mary were not a "normal married Jewish couple". Joseph was a Nazirite (Num. 6) who was chosen by God to be the Spouse of Mary, the prophesied Virgin Who gave birth to God Incarnate and the Messiah. Can it be admitted that She who was preordained to be the divine form for the Second Person to become flesh could accept the seed of a man in Her womb, which had been divinised by God taking form in it, and have a human son conceived in original sin through inheritance from Adam? How could the Immaculate have generated an impure son from Her womb? How could the eternal Virgin accept human intercourse after having known the embrace of God? She Who from eternity the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit thought of as "our dwelling" could only be of God. Only God Incarnate could be formed and born from the Most Holy Mary.

Additionally, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources (early Christian Church Fathers), that collectively show the following in post #4:
  • Jesus's brothers (kinsmen/relatives) Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55 and Mk.6:3 were the sons of His Mother's Spouse's brother, Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and his wife Mary of Clopas (Cleophas/Alphaeus), the sister [in-law] of Mary of Joseph (Jn. 19:25), and thus His cousins

  • Jesus's cousins James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus were the same people as the apostles James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas) of the Twelve

  • Jesus's cousin and apostle James of Alphaeus of the Twelve was the same person as "James the Less", "James the brother of the Lord", "James the Just", "James the first bishop of Jerusalem", and the author of the Epistle of James

In addition to the above, Jesus once again confirmed through His spokesperson Maria Valtorta that His brothers (kinsmen/relatives) Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of His Mother's Spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary, and thus His cousins.
 
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Matthias

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“Officially, the Church has upheld the perpertual virginity of Mary. Pope Siricius in 390 wrote: ‘This is the virgin who conceived in her womb and as a virgin bore a son.‘ The Council of Chalcedon (451) ratified the teaching of Pope Leo I regarding that Mary is ever-virgin. The Lateran Council (649) (not one of the general councils) stated: ‘If anyone does not, according to the holy Fathers, confess truly that holy Mary, ever virgin and immaculate, is Mother of God, since in this latter age she conceived in true reality without human seed from the Holy Spirit, God the Word Himself, who before the ages was begotten of God the Father, and gave birth to Him without injury, her virginity remaining equally inviolate after the birth, let him be condemned.’ In 1555, Pope Paul IV affirmed the virginity of Mary before, during, and after the birth of the Lord. However, the Church has not defined how Mary is virgin in partu.”


I don’t have any concern whatsoever about the Catholic Church condemning me (a Jewish monotheist) for rejecting their dogma, but this is virtually proof positive for a Catholic. It’s a “Church vs. the world“ scenario for them. Non-Catholics are asking practicing Catholics to think, or at least consider, what to the practicing Catholic is unthinkable.

A 17 year-old Roman Catholic friend and classmate of mine told me something at school one day that still stands out in my mind 50 years later: “You might as well ask a Catholic to believe the devil is God as to ask a Catholic to believe that Mary didn’t remain a virgin throughout her life.

Blunt and to the point.

If I’m on Team Catholic, I’m applauding. If I’m not - and I’m not - I’m filing this under “Things that are non-sequiturs in conversations with Catholics”.
 
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LuxMundy

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A 17 year-old Roman Catholic friend and classmate of mine told me something at school one day that still stands out in my mind 50 years later: “You might as well ask a Catholic to believe the devil is God as to ask a Catholic to believe that Mary didn’t remain a virgin throughout her life.

Blunt and to the point.

If I’m on Team Catholic, I’m applauding. If I’m not - and I’m not - I’m filing this under “Things that are non-sequiturs in conversations with Catholics”.

I believe that Mary remained a Virgin because of what is written in the Old and New Testament, the testimonies of early Church Fathers, Jesus who confirmed this truth again in modern times through His spokesperson Maria Valtorta, and so on. If I'm shown the truth about something, and I accept the truth, then why would I believe anything other than the truth? Would you believe anything other than the truth?
 

Matthias

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I believe that Mary remained a Virgin because of what is written in the Old and New Testament, the testimonies of early Church Fathers, Jesus who confirmed this truth again in modern times through His spokesperson Maria Valtorta, and so on.

I believe you.

If I'm shown the truth, and I accept the truth, then why would I believe anything other than the truth?

I take it that this is a rhetorical question and will treat it as such.

Would you believe anything other than the truth?

Not knowingly.