Offenders in the kingdom

[Taken]

The earth is the base of the throne. That is what footstool means.

Disagree.

The earth has a “base” of it’s own, “scripturally” Called a “foundation”

The earth is “separated” from Heaven Called a firmament.

Gods Kingdom is not OF “THIS WOULD…ie Earth”.

John 18:
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The Second Coming involves the mount of Olives, the baptism of fire, and all the angels. Where is the term Second Coming ever found in Scripture?

If you believe:
Jesus came From Heaven to Earth,
Left Earth and Returned to Heaven,
And said He would Return to Earth…
I don’t see a mystery in Second Coming.

Are you going to say there is no Second Coming, because no Scripture has those exact words?

I have said nothing of the sort….But I see you have been compelled to write your own words to that effect.

If you cannot figure out that Jesus is the Lamb of God,

I said no such thing.

who is the Lamb?

The Lamb is Sacrifice FOR the inhabitants of this world/earth).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Timtofly]

Disagree.

The earth has a “base” of it’s own, “scripturally” Called a “foundation”

The earth is “separated” from Heaven Called a firmament.

Gods Kingdom is not OF “THIS WOULD…ie Earth”.

John 18:
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.




If you believe:
Jesus came From Heaven to Earth,
Left Earth and Returned to Heaven,
And said He would Return to Earth…
I don’t see a mystery in Second Coming.



I have said nothing of the sort….But I see you have been compelled to write your own words to that effect.



I said no such thing.



The Lamb is Sacrifice FOR the inhabitants of this world/earth).

Glory to God,
Taken

So you agree that when those hiding on earth see the Lamb, it is not because they can see into your totally "separate dimension" whatever that is?

Can you see an airplane in the firmament or heaven? Did it leave one reality for a totally separate reality ie earth into heaven?

The base of any throne is the footstool ie the pedastool where one's feet rest. God's literally feet rest on the earth, while His literal body extends into the firmament. That is why no one on earth to this day, can build a building that would house God sitting on the throne. Sometimes God has stood up and visited people like His daily visit with Adam in the Garden of Eden. The GWT is not in the middle east on top of Jerusalem.

Sorry but I had to describe what you seem to oppose about Scripture.

The point that the firmament dissolves at the Second Coming is not just physical, any more than you reject the physical description of the GWT. These points do cover the physical aspect of creation as much as the spiritual aspect of creation. The spiritual is tangible, just hidden from fallen humanity. We see stars in the firmament. God placed the angels in the firmament to be physical lights in the sky. That is the spiritual aspect of creation. The stars are spiritual aspects of creation. We can still physically see them, not just in their natural form called angels, a spiritual term.

The kingdom of Christ will not be of this earth until the Second Coming. The Kingdom of heaven/God will not come to earth, until after the Millennial Kingdom of Christ, when the New Jerusalem descends during the next creation the NHNE.

That God does exist both on earth and in heaven has nothing to do with kingdoms period. God has always existed both on earth and in the firmament since Genesis 1. The kingdom of heaven was established during Daniel's day according to Daniel 2. It evidently did not exist during the previous 4500 years. The kingdom of Christ only pertains to the final Day of the Lord. It did not pertain to life on earth during the previous 7,000 years.

So, I am not sure why you base kingdoms on the throne of God, when in fact the GWT has always existed since the beginning. Obviously when Adam disobeyed God, fallen mankind was no longer able to see the spiritual aspect of creation, including the GWT.

 

[Taken]

So you agree that when those hiding on earth see the Lamb,

Men on earth “see the Lamb”?
I did not say that.
Scripture does not say that.
You are the one saying that.

Can you see an airplane in the firmament or heaven?

Can I See an airplane in the firmament or heaven?
Sometimes from earth.
Definitely when I am in a plane.

Does the firmament of heaven often cover mountain tops? Yes.
Do men climb to mountain tops? Yes
Are they IN the firmament of heaven? Yes

Did it leave one reality for a totally separate reality ie earth into heaven?

Yes.
Earth is corrupt.
High Mountain tops covered with the firmament is …..
Holy ground.

The base of any throne is the footstool ie the pedastool where one's feet rest. God's literally feet rest on the earth, while His literal body extends into the firmament. That is why no one on earth to this day, can build a building that would house God sitting on the throne. Sometimes God has stood up and visited people like His daily visit with Adam in the Garden of Eden. The GWT is not in the middle east on top of Jerusalem.

Sorry but I had to describe what you seem to oppose about Scripture.

Nothing I have said is in Opposition to Scripture. It is you I am speaking with, it is you I disagree with..

 

[Timtofly]

Men on earth “see the Lamb”?
I did not say that.
Scripture does not say that.
You are the one saying that.



Can I See an airplane in the firmament or heaven?
Sometimes from earth.
Definitely when I am in a plane.

Does the firmament of heaven often cover mountain tops? Yes.
Do men climb to mountain tops? Yes
Are they IN the firmament of heaven? Yes



Yes.
Earth is corrupt.
High Mountain tops covered with the firmament is …..
Holy ground.



Nothing I have said is in Opposition to Scripture. It is you I am speaking with, it is you I disagree with..

Then why are they hiding if they cannot see the Lamb?

 

[Taken]

Then why are they hiding if they cannot see the Lamb?

So THEY can not be SEEN.

 

[tailgator]

Then why are they hiding if they cannot see the Lamb?

Read the verses that precede their hiding underground.This is why they go underground to hide.


This is why they have built so many underground bunkers to begin with.Do you not know what John is describing here?


Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?







What kind of a cloud in the heavens departs from earth as a scroll being rolled together?
It accompanies an earthquake.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Also see Matthew 5:20 & 18:3).

I have a question, how did those that offend and do iniquity get into the kingdom? Is it possible to be born of water and Spirit and not be saved?

A clue might be found in the parable of the wedding banquet in Matthew 22:1-14. In verse 11-12 the king sees a man without a wedding garment and asks him how he came in without a garment, but no explanation of how that happened is given.

So, how do those that offend get into the kingdom?

The answer is right in the parable Jesus gave.

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field?

The field is the world, and it belongs to Him
Someday the entire world will be the kingdom of God.
Those who offend are the unbelieving, they have been tolerated by the Lord until the Last Day, so as to not disturb the fruit produced by the wheat, (His People bear good fruit to God, the tares never do, will or can being the devil's children.)

 

[Scott Downey]

The field in the parable is the world, and it belongs to the Lord God

The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein.


So Moses said to him, “As soon as I have gone out of the city, I will spread out my hands to the Lord; the thunder will cease, and there will be no more hail, that you may know that the earth is the Lord’s.

1 Cor 10
25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”

27 If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake.

 

[grafted branch]

The answer is right in the parable Jesus gave.

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field?

The field is the world, and it belongs to Him
Someday the entire world will be the kingdom of God.
Those who offend are the unbelieving, they have been tolerated by the Lord until the Last Day, so as to not disturb the fruit produced by the wheat, (His People bear good fruit to God, the tares never do, will or can being the devil's children.)

Let’s take a closer look at that idea and compare it with Matthew 4:9 where Satan offers Jesus the kingdoms of the world if Jesus will bow down.

First off, do you think the Son of man sows in Satans kingdom or the kingdom of heaven? I realize the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, but at the time the seeds are sown, whose kingdom is it?

 

[Scott Downey]

Let’s take a closer look at that idea and compare it with Matthew 4:9 where Satan offers Jesus the kingdoms of the world if Jesus will bow down.

First off, do you think the Son of man sows in Satans kingdom or the kingdom of heaven? I realize the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, but at the time the seeds are sown, whose kingdom is it?

Satan is a liar, all he speaks are lies
He cannot speak the truth. And God can not lie.
The field is the world
The Son plants us as His people in the world
The world does belong to God, whatever Satan says is just being deceptive.
God does what He wants in His field the world.

John 8
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

 

[grafted branch]

Satan is a liar, all he speaks are lies
He cannot speak the truth. And God can not lie.
The field is the world
The Son plants us as His people in the world
The world does belong to God, whatever Satan says is just being deceptive.
God does what He wants in His field the world.

John 8
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

Alright, in Matthew 13:37 the word “sowing” <4687> is a present tense verb, so we know the Son of man was sowing when He spoke those words.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Would you agree that the sowing took place in the house of Israel?

 

[tailgator]

Let’s take a closer look at that idea and compare it with Matthew 4:9 where Satan offers Jesus the kingdoms of the world if Jesus will bow down.

First off, do you think the Son of man sows in Satans kingdom or the kingdom of heaven? I realize the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, but at the time the seeds are sown, whose kingdom is it?

You believe Satan is an honest character who can be trusted?
He is the only one saying the world is his.

 

[grafted branch]

You believe Satan is an honest character who can be trusted?
He is the only one saying the world is his.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Who do you suppose the god of this world is?

 

[Scott Downey]

Alright, in Matthew 13:37 the word “sowing” <4687> is a present tense verb, so we know the Son of man was sowing when He spoke those words.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Would you agree that the sowing took place in the house of Israel?

No.
Not exactly, what do you mean by the house of Israel?
Just the Jewish nation?

The sowing takes place all over the field, the entire world.
When Christ says sowing, He is referring to the people of God, jew and gentile, who are born again by the spirit of God. They belong to God as His people, planted by the Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Who do you suppose the god of this world is?

The world in this sense, is the minds of man, the unsaved, their way of thoughts, how they view things, Satan has sway over that.
Satan has sway over the world of man as it says, he blinds them so the gospel light of Christ, they do not understand or see as real, as truth.

God rules over all though, and God in v6 shines His light where He wills in the heart, and people are saved. Satan has no power, except for what God allows him to do. Satan is not a legitimate ruler, he is a rebel, adversary, enemy of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Well actually who is Israel really?
Not the unbelieving Jews, they lie when the call God their father

Jesus was sent to gather the children of God into one flock, both jew and gentile, with Him as their great shepherd.

Galatians 3, Abraham's seed is what we are , so then we are Israel.... We were the lost sheep Christ came for.

Sons and Heirs​

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Scott Downey]

Who are Abrahams's true descendants?​

See it is not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit as to who is the true Israel of God

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.​

​

Two Covenants​

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are [g]the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

 

[grafted branch]

No.
Not exactly, what do you mean by the house of Israel?
Just the Jewish nation?

What I mean by “house of Israel” is what Jesus Himself meant. In Matthew 15:21-28 it is a Canaanite woman, who describes herself as a dog that eats the crumbs from the table, that Jesus says it is not meet to take the children’s bread. The children can’t be Gentiles in this case.

The sowing takes place all over the field, the entire world.
When Christ says sowing, He is referring to the people of God, jew and gentile, who are born again by the spirit of God. They belong to God as His people, planted by the Lord.

I would say a better interpretation is that the sowing takes place on earth rather than heaven. Satan did draw a third part of the stars in Revelation 12:4, so in the explanation of the parable of the tares the world is referring to a location, not that it means the entire earth.

The Son of man sowed while He was on earth, I would say that fits the parable the best, as currently the Holy Spirit is viewed as being on earth while Jesus is viewed as sitting at the right hand of God.

 

[Timtofly]

So THEY can not be SEEN.

How do they know they are being watched, if they don't believe or even accept Jesus and God even exist?

How can they know God without seeing Him sitting on the GWT, or how do they know Jesus if they do not see the Lamb?

People are not hiding today, because they are taught there is no God. How do they learn the truth? Do you really think that hiding anywhere is going to prevent a person from being seen by God?

Seems to me, they are hiding so they do not have to see the face of God. Not that God is unable to see them.

 

[grafted branch]

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Well actually who is Israel really?
Not the unbelieving Jews, they lie when the call God their father

Jesus was sent to gather the children of God into one flock, both jew and gentile, with Him as their great shepherd.

Galatians 3, Abraham's seed is what we are , so then we are Israel.... We were the lost sheep Christ came for.

Sons and Heirs​

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Matthew 15:24 takes place prior to the Gentiles being grafted in.