Strength and Honor: Triumphing over Feminism

[Skovand]

So a few things. Feminism is not linked to relying on social benefits. But yes feminism is about undermining patriarchy because patriarchy is about developing a society that is male driven. It’s a power structure. It’s a power structure that dominated Mesopotamia and Rome in the bronze and Iron which is when all of the Bible was written. Judaism actually helped undermine very much of it. There are now two main Christian approaches to how the Bible uplifts equality, and undermines patriarchy. That’s Christian feminism and Christian womanism. Rosa Parks was also a feminist who united the two by fighting against the racial abuse white men specifically perpetuated towards black women.

Episode 95: Cheryl Bridges Johns - The Bible & Women’s Spirituality - The Bible For Normal People

In this episode of The Bible for Normal People Podcast, Pete and Jared talk with theologian and professor Dr. Cheryl Bridges Johns about how feminism has changed over the years and...

thebiblefornormalpeople.com

Interview: The Bible for Normal People, "Episode 170: A Modern Church History of Toxic Masculinity,' with Pete Enns - Kristin Kobes Du Mez

In this episode of The Bible for Normal People Podcast, Pete and Jared talk with Kristin Kobes Du Mez about patterns of toxic masculinity in the white Evangelical church as they explore the following questions: What led Du Mez to be...

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Episode 105: Wil Gafney - Womanist Midrash (Reissue) - The Bible For Normal People

Pete and Jared talk with Dr. Wil Gafney about womanist midrash and why womanist biblical interpretation is important for everyone.

thebiblefornormalpeople.com

Those three episodes have three different women who are Christians who have studied this .

Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Mez is a good book also.

 

[Wynona]

So a few things. Feminism is not linked to relying on social benefits. But yes feminism is about undermining patriarchy because patriarchy is about developing a society that is male driven. It’s a power structure. It’s a power structure that dominated Mesopotamia and Rome in the bronze and Iron which is when all of the Bible was written. Judaism actually helped undermine very much of it. There are now two main Christian approaches to how the Bible uplifts equality, and undermines patriarchy. That’s Christian feminism and Christian womanism. Rosa Parks was also a feminist who united the two by fighting against the racial abuse white men specifically perpetuated towards black women.

Episode 95: Cheryl Bridges Johns - The Bible & Women’s Spirituality - The Bible For Normal People

In this episode of The Bible for Normal People Podcast, Pete and Jared talk with theologian and professor Dr. Cheryl Bridges Johns about how feminism has changed over the years and...

thebiblefornormalpeople.com

Interview: The Bible for Normal People, "Episode 170: A Modern Church History of Toxic Masculinity,' with Pete Enns - Kristin Kobes Du Mez

In this episode of The Bible for Normal People Podcast, Pete and Jared talk with Kristin Kobes Du Mez about patterns of toxic masculinity in the white Evangelical church as they explore the following questions: What led Du Mez to be...

kristindumez.com

Episode 105: Wil Gafney - Womanist Midrash (Reissue) - The Bible For Normal People

Pete and Jared talk with Dr. Wil Gafney about womanist midrash and why womanist biblical interpretation is important for everyone.

thebiblefornormalpeople.com

Those three episodes have three different women who are Christians who have studied this .

Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Mez is a good book also.

Christian feminism? What exactly is that?

Im asking for clarity's sake.

Feminism is an opposing reaction to patriarchy but the Bible says patriarchy is good.

Christian patriarchy protects women and children. Christians men have done this in an honoring way and helped women before feminism.

 

[Wynona]

But yes feminism is about undermining patriarchy because patriarchy is about developing a society that is male driven. It’s a power structure.

Why is male-driven society bad?

 

[Skovand]

Christian feminism? What exactly is that?

Im asking for clarity's sake.

Feminism is an opposing reaction to patriarchy but the Bible says patriarchy is good.

Christian patriarchy protects women and children. Christians men have done this in an honoring way and helped women before feminism.

Me typing out several pages of arguments and philosophical concepts is a bad use of my time. Especially for this forum as a post. It’s not a priority for me either for me to do a thread on it at this time. Best way to learn a complex subject is to listen to the activists within it. Those three women I posted are all part of that circle with relevant PhDs.

This organization here is a great resource for those wanting to learn more.

About | The Junia Project

The Junia Project exists to teach biblical equality, equip women, and resource the Church. We advocate for the full inclusion of women in church leadership and for mutuality in marriage. We want to see women lean into their calling as equal partners in ministry and to advance an accurate...

juniaproject.com

One thing many laypeople misunderstand is that the patriarchy in the Bible was overwhelmingly a Jewish patriarchal system of power that placed Jewish men above all other men. Including Jewish men over non Jewish men. It was an ethnicity system just as much as a gender one. This system as the Talmuds show also placed men with ambiguous sex such as the order of their gender powers went Zachar, Androgynos, Tumtum, Saris hamah, Saris adam, Aylonit hamah, Aylonit adam and lastly Nekevah.

 

[Wynona]

One thing many laypeople misunderstand is that the patriarchy in the Bible was overwhelmingly a Jewish patriarchal system of power that placed Jewish men above all other men. Including Jewish men over non Jewish men. It was an ethnicity system just as much as a gender one. This system as the Talmuds show also placed men with ambiguous sex such as the order of their gender powers went Zachar, Androgynos, Tumtum, Saris hamah, Saris adam, Aylonit hamah, Aylonit adam and lastly Nekevah.

The Bible makes this clear, degree or no degree. I don't disagree. The Jews have a special covenant with God and they were supposed to be guarded about it. I just don't see how this supports feminism.

I don't believe you can change the Bible's intentions to fit modern times. The time period and culture where the Bible is writtem isn't worse than ours just because its in the past.

 

[Skovand]

The Bible makes this clear, degree or no degree. I don't disagree. The Jews have a special covenant with God and they were supposed to be guarded about it. I just don't see how this supports feminism.

I don't believe you can change the Bible's intentions to fit modern times. The time period and culture where the Bible is writtem isn't worse than ours just because its in the past.

So again, instead of correcting statement after statement I’ll presume this is true. You’ve not read much scholarly material by those who don’t just have a degree….. but are biblical experts. They spent 10+ years professionally and academically researching the Bible in more depth than you and I combined can do over a lifetime. Conservatives in general are very dismissive of education. So it’s up to you. You can decide that you already know for sure what it means because of an echo chamber of circular reasoning or you can consider the possibility that since you’ve never studied this and that there are biblical scholars who have studied this with a focus on this exact issue that maybe, you can learn something from them. Or shut the door.

But don’t confuse name dropping a few people for being the same. There are hundreds of feminist on the face of activism. Naming a few and their quotes, without context, merged with a conservative love for patriarchy is just not a legitimate argument.

Feminism means one thing. Women having the right to live the life they want without being under the oppressive heel of patriarchy, which in America is also under the oppressive heel of white supremacy x patriarchy. White women are fighting for the rights to be equal white men. Gay women are fighting for the rights to be equal to white women who then in return are fighting to be equal to white men. Women of color are fighting for the right to be equal to white women, who again, are fighting to be equal to the rights of white women. They all interconnect to undermine an oppressive system.

Within feminism, if you want to be a wife under the control of your husband you can. But under the theocracy you’re pushing it’s demanding that all women want to be like you. That’s the difference. Not all women want your life. Feminism is giving women the right to live their life. It does not undermine your life. You can still be whatever kind of woman you want to be. Just like Abolitionists did not force black men to enter white mean spaces. Black men could remain segregated by choice. But segregationist demanded all are segregated. Abolitionists gave oppressed people power to not be restricted, though it’s still an on going fight.

Again, feminism is about women have equal rights. Patriarchy is not about men having equal rights with women, but men having the power to be oppressive to women if they choose to be. Feminism does not mean you have to change your lifestyle. Just that other women don’t have to be kept a slave to yours.

 

[Wynona]

So again, instead of correcting statement after statement I’ll presume this is true. You’ve not read much scholarly material by those who don’t just have a degree….. but are biblical experts. They spent 10+ years professionally and academically researching the Bible in more depth than you and I combined can do over a lifetime. Conservatives in general are very dismissive of education. So it’s up to you. You can decide that you already know for sure what it means because of an echo chamber of circular reasoning or you can consider the possibility that since you’ve never studied this and that there are biblical scholars who have studied this with a focus on this exact issue that maybe, you can learn something from them. Or shut the door.

Appeal to authority fallacy. I don't need a whole dissertation. Why not just answer my original question briefly?

Hopefully your education taught you to summarize your views for a debate.

Id welcome the challenge. Glad you dropped by the thread. But just hyping biblical experts is not an argument either.

Has feminism produced better results for the health and wellbeing of men and women than patriarchy?

I don't think it has. And I can explain why in a few bullet points. Why not explain your view on feminism?

 

[Skovand]

Appeal to authority fallacy. I don't need a whole dissertation. Why not just answer my original question briefly?

Hopefully your education taught you to summarize your views for a debate.

Id welcome the challenge. Glad you dropped by the thread. But just hyping biblical experts is not an argument either.

Has feminism produced better results for the health and wellbeing of men and women than patriarchy?

I don't think it has. And I can explain why in a few bullet points. Why not explain your view on feminism?

I’m not just name dropping though. I giving links to see thousands of pages written on this issue by experts.

You’re just day see these bad bad words these few women said.

I’m not giving an easy short answer because it’s not an easy short answer. Easy short answers are not normally the answers you give to something that will affect a billion women around the world.

Anyways. I have given far more than needed for anyone interested in this subject to begin their search. It’s interesting how dismissively you shrug off the importance of in-depth studying spanning decades but hold whatever little reading you’ve done as so much higher.

This is my last response on this thread. At least until something worthwhile pops up.

 

[Wynona]

I giving links to see thousands of pages written on this issue by experts.

Am still interested in your thoughts in your own words. Ill need extra time to go and look through the links you posted and I do have to do things outside this forum.

Given that it will take time to take a look at these thousands of pages, Id love if you give answering one of my questions a try. Its not a trap, I was genuinely curious.

Now it just looks like you're avoiding the topic at hand because you don't actually have a real answer to support feminism.

I consider that a win but its a cheap one. Id rather have a good discussion. No need to talk down to me. Just talk about feminism.

If I dont see a response, no issue. Thanks for posting.

 

[Wrangler]

Feminism is not linked to relying on social benefits. But yes feminism is about undermining patriarchy because patriarchy is about developing a society that is male driven.

Wrong on both counts. Feminism is totally communism with breasts (“linked to relying on social benefits” as you say; see outrage over ‘Trump taking away their rights’). It seeks to undermine a merit based system, aka the patriarchy, and replace it with a Cultural Marxist system of equality of outcomes.

Whenever a society exchanges a merit system with a non-merit system, it is a sign the society’s collapse is near.

It is not about what women want or choose! Feminism is satanic because it seeks to displace God with the female ego - the original sin repeated. See Genesis 3:16. I noticed none of your posts in this thread are inspired by Scripture. That is telling.

 

[Skovand]

Am still interested in your thoughts in your own words. Ill need extra time to go and look through the links you posted and I do have to do things outside this forum.

Given that it will take time to take a look at these thousands of pages, Id love if you give answering one of my questions a try. Its not a trap, I was genuinely curious.

Now it just looks like you're avoiding the topic at hand because you don't actually have a real answer to support feminism.

I consider that a win but its a cheap one. Id rather have a good discussion. No need to talk down to me. Just talk about feminism.

If I dont see a response, no issue. Thanks for posting.

I also have things outside of this forum. It’s ok for
It to take time. As mentioned, it’s not a simple answer. I’m sure you’ve read my previous response and why I’m choosing to not spend the time to answer it. As states…. Already answered this up above. I hope you actually go through them. When I have time to do an appropriate post I will. At the moment I’m waiting on line at a grocery store. Then going hiking. Then going to the gym. Then working on some stuff for work. Then going to church. Then going to bed plus all the other normal cooking and house cleaning.

 

[Mink57]

Many front runner feminists (Betty Friedan, Simone de Beauvoir) worked very hard to persuade women that they ought to compete with men in the workforce in order to avoid giving men too much power and control over them.

You keep mentioning the same two people over and over again in your posts...as if ALL feminists take their cues from them.

The feminist movement is not about giving equal opportunities for women. It is about dismantling patriarchy aka father-rule.

Or maybe it's BOTH? Or NEITHER? Or more complex than that?

The major problem with feminism is that it empowers neither men or women. It just increases people's reliance on the government.

Or, feminism seeks to empower women along with men, so that NEITHER has the 'upper hand.'
Has nothing to do with people's reliance on the government.

Relying on the government for food, housing, education, and divorce rulings all increased in the 1960's as feminism gained more influence. It is not a pro-woman movement. It's a pro-state movement.

Women have always contributed value outside their homes before feminism. They volunteered, organized events for their communities, were in clubs, and all kinds of organized work on top of raising healthy families.

Sure they did! But their roles were LIMITED because of how the majority of men and women (influenced by those men) erroneously thought about women.

Feminism is about what women could do, embracing their potential and/or desire to do MORE in and for society.
Patriarchy is about what women should do, regardless of their potential or desire to do MORE in and for society.

It is feminism that denies this is worth as much as competing with men in work, preaching, and combat.

Iit was patriarchy that denied the value of homemaking and community service, not seeing what women did as valuable as what a man does/did. It was patriarchy that 'assigned' men the roles of being in the workforce, preaching and combat. But what if a man wasn't interested in going into combat?

Feminism doesn't deny the value of homemaking, and applauds the men who are choosing to be SAHD's these days! According to Pew research, SAHD's now make up 18% of stay-at-home-parents.

You keep making these claims about feminists as if ALL feminists think the same way. They don't.

In order to beat patriarchy, traditional masculine roles have to be filled by women.

Who defines what a "masculine role' is in the first place?

That's why the honest ones don't pretend they respect homemaking as a valid choice for women.

Actually, the 'honest' one's respect homemaking as a valid choice for women as much as they respect homemaking and childcare as a valid choice for MEN.

Most feminists actively disdain that choice openly and loudly.

Feminists make up approximately 61% of the female US population, while 33% of the male population are feminists. I seriously DOUBT you have met or heard from "MOST" feminists in that regard.

In contrast, the Bible says married women are to be keepers at home, focused on loving their husbands and children so the Word of God is not blasphemed (Titus 2:3-5).

Show me in the Bible where GOD and/or Jesus directly says that.

Feminism can't go with Christianity because the Bible supports husbands and fathers being in charge of their homes and leading their wives. Feminism is about overthrowing this.

The Bible does NOT say that husbands and fathers are in charge of their homes.

 

[Wrangler]

Feminists make up approximately 61% of the female US population, while 33% of the male population are feminists. I seriously DOUBT you have met or heard from "MOST" feminists in that regard.

The bitterness must wear down your soul.

Continuing to attempt to dodge the evil that is feminism by the ALL v SOME ploy. @Wynona's "most" point is easy to confirm regarding the talking points rather than actual number of people who YOU claim embrace this evil. Only one in denial would deny that most times feminists are talking about choice, they show disdain for a woman today choosing the traditional gender roles.

And that is generous. At best, it is a throw away statement in their quest for more power, wealth and prestige at the expense of men. See DEI.

 

[Mink57]

The bitterness must wear down your soul.

What bitterness? I provide statistical FACTS and that makes me 'bitter'???

Continuing to attempt to dodge the evil that is feminism by the ALL v SOME ploy. @Wynona's "most" point is easy to confirm regarding the talking points rather than actual number of people who YOU claim embrace this evil. Only one in denial would deny that most times feminists are talking about choice, they show disdain for a woman today choosing the traditional gender roles.

I haven't met ANY woman who has shown disdain for a woman if she CHOOSES to be a homemaker, nor have *I* EVER discouraged ANY woman from doing that. Remember Wrangler, *I* CHOSE that role at one time in my life, too. And no woman EVER approached me and showed disdain for MY choice.

And that is generous. At best, it is a throw away statement in their quest for more power, wealth and prestige at the expense of men. See DEI.

Hahahaha!!! What about MEN'S quest for power, wealth and prestige at the expense of women? If a MAN wants that he's revered, but if a WOMAN wants that she's EVIL?? What kind of foolish logic is THAT?

 

[Wrangler]

What about MEN'S quest for power, wealth and prestige at the expense of women?

There’s your gynocentrism again. Women never seek glory in terms of trail blazing because it involves the 4 letter word they can’t handle, risk.

Once a man has blazed the trail, feminists coveting say ‘me too.’ It is never men who seek CEO of a firm women founded. Always the reverse.

Let’s give an example. Amelia Earhart was made famous for flying across the Atlantic solo. But she want the first or even second person to do it. Actually, she was the 8th. Another example is the Kathleen Kennedy joke.
Q. How do you create a million dollar (Star Wars) franchise?
A. Start with a billion dollar franchise.

I know you will try to find an exception as f that makes the rule.

 

[Wrangler]

I haven't met ANY woman who has shown disdain for a woman if she CHOOSES to be a homemaker

Odd. I guess you are the exception.

 

[Mink57]

There’s your gynocentrism again. Women never seek glory in terms of trail blazing because it involves the 4 letter word they can’t handle, risk.

Once a man has blazed the trail, feminists coveting say ‘me too.’ It is never men who seek CEO of a firm women founded. Always the reverse.

You mean...once a man has blazed the trail because men wouldn't ALLOW women to do any 'blazing'? The men who threw up obstacles against the women who WANTED to trailblaze, for reasons such as, womenz ain't smart enough...or sexually harassed her because they COULD?

Let’s give an example. Amelia Earhart was made famous for flying across the Atlantic solo. But she want the first or even second person to do it. Actually, she was the 8th. Another example is the Kathleen Kennedy joke.

So WHAT if she was the 8th person to do this? She was still the first W-O-M-A-N to do it. AND, once she landed home, she was revered by both MEN and women for doing so. Her teachers...her instructors...her peers were MOSTLY men. And MOST of them were THRILLED to help her to make that landmark flight a success. And yes, the 'mostly' part is because the men and women who helped her were NAMED. And it WAS MOSTLY men who helped her.

Q. How do you create a million dollar (Star Wars) franchise?
A. Start with a billion dollar franchise.

I know you will try to find an exception as f that makes the rule.

This whole thing isn't about exceptions; it's about beginnings. Thousands of years of patriarchal attitudes prevented women from demonstrating their smarts. Only been over the past 100 years or so that women are gaining more traction.

And men like YOU don't like that.

I might be gynocentric Wrangler. But I'd rather be gynocentric than EGOcentric, such as yourself and some other men, who have no desire to see women succeed because of your own FEAR of a little more competition.

 

[Wrangler]

You mean...once a man has blazed the trail because men wouldn't ALLOW women to do any 'blazing'?

LOL. Men don't ask permission to take risks. That's the difference. Gad you admit that women wait on permission, on being allowed.

 

[Wrangler]

So WHAT if she was the 8th person to do this? She was still the first W-O-M-A-N to do it.

Right. And she gets more accolades than the 2-7 person. I can only imagine the outrage feminists would show if 7 W-O-M-E-N did something never done and all the attention is given the the 8th person who was a M-A-N. LOL

 

[Wrangler]

And MOST of them were THRILLED to help her to make that landmark flight a success.

Allowing a man to help does not past muster with today's feminists.