Offenders in the kingdom

[grafted branch]

Well, in the OT, there was no Cross of Christ, so, you have "Abraham's Bosom."
This is the "Paradise" that Jesus is referring to when He said....to the dying Thief..."TODAY, you will be with me in Paradise".

Where is that?

That is 1 Peter 3:9

Abraham’s bosom was referred to as Sheol by the Jews. A holding place of the dead prior to the cross.

Are you claiming Sheol is the kingdom that the angels gather the offenders out of? If so that would place the parable of the tares as being fulfilled at the cross.

 

[Behold]

Abraham’s bosom was referred to as Sheol by the Jews. A holding place of the dead prior to the cross.

All are dead once you die.

So, its not just the "dead"........as some of them went to Hell.

Others, went to Abaham's Bosom

1 Peter 3:9

 

[grafted branch]

All are dead once you die.

So, its not just the "dead"........as some of them went to Hell.

Others, went to Abaham's Bosom

1 Peter 3:9

In the parable of the tares the tares are gathered first in Matthew 13:30, and the dead in Christ rise first in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. If the parable of the tares is referring to Sheol then it had to have been fulfilled prior to the writing of 1 Thessalonians.

 

[Behold]

In the parable of the tares the tares are gathered first in Matthew 13:30, and the dead in Christ rise first in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. If the parable of the tares is referring to Sheol then it had to have been fulfilled prior to the writing of 1 Thessalonians.

No born again Christian is a "tare".

 

[Davidpt]

Alright, so Satan ruling certain areas of the world could be viewed as the kingdom of Satan. The parable of the tares is about the kingdom of heaven as stated in Matthew 13:24. The area in the world that belongs to Jesus is where He sows and Satan sows in the parable.

What area in the world got sowed that was then allowed for both the wheat and tares to grow together in?

What is it that you think is being sown in the world? Isn't it this? the children of the kingdom and the children of the wicked one. BTW, IMO, this also sheds some more light on the 2 seeds mentioned in Genesis 3.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And I will put enmity between thee(meaning the devil)---and the woman(likely meaning Israel). and between thy(meaning the devil) seed(meaning the children of the wicked one) and her(likely meaning Israel) seed(meaning the children of the kingdom).

We see something maybe similar in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman(likely meaning Israel) , and went to make war with the remnant of her seed(meaning the children of the kingdom), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[grafted branch]

No born again Christian is a "tare".

Right, I agree. How then did the tares get into the kingdom?

 

[Behold]

Right, I agree. How then did the tares get into the kingdom?

The fake tares were separated from those who shine forth as the sun IN the Kingdom.

So, the tares didnt make it.

Keep in mind this is not a NT Doctrine, its a parable.

Its symbolic.

 

[grafted branch]

What is it that you think is being sown in the world? Isn't it this? the children of the kingdom and the children of the wicked one. BTW, IMO, this also sheds some more light on the 2 seeds mentioned in Genesis 3.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And I will put enmity between thee(meaning the devil)---and the woman(likely meaning Israel). and between thy(meaning the devil) seed(meaning the children of the wicked one) and her(likely meaning Israel) seed(meaning the children of the kingdom).

We see something maybe similar in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman(likely meaning Israel) , and went to make war with the remnant of her seed(meaning the children of the kingdom), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I think what is being sown is the belief or unbelief in whether Jesus is the Christ.

I do think it could work to claim the kingdom was in the Garden of Eden and that is where the tares were initially sown.

In the parable Satan sows the tares “while men slept”, presumably at night. This wouldn’t fit well with the fall of man but it does seem to fit with John 9:4.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

 

[grafted branch]

The fake tares were separated from those who shine forth as the sun IN the Kingdom.

So, the tares didnt make it.

Keep in mind this is not a NT Doctrine, its a parable.

Its symbolic.

If we have several different views that do agree with all of the wording of the parable and some else claims their view is correct, it’s just that some of the wording in the parable can’t be explained, then it’s going to be nearly impossible to convince anyone you have a correct interpretation.

 

[Davidpt]

I think what is being sown is the belief or unbelief in whether Jesus is the Christ.

I do think it could work to claim the kingdom was in the Garden of Eden and that is where the tares were initially sown.

In the parable Satan sows the tares “while men slept”, presumably at night. This wouldn’t fit well with the fall of man but it does seem to fit with John 9:4.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

I'm not applying Genesis 3:15 to the time of the fall. That verse is prophetic and involves Christ, which means Christ has to be born first, which He was 2000 years ago.

 

[Davidpt]

Just found the following article below. Thus far I have read some of it not all of it. What I have read I'm pretty much in agreement with for the most part. Worth reading if you have the time and are open about this subject rather than closed-minded.

My view is and always has been that tares are meaning false believers in the body of Christ. The author at the link below appears to agree.

Nine Characteristics of Tares—The Believer’s Enemy

In more than 42 years of ministry, my experience has been that most of the time a believer’s greatest persecution comes from people who identify themselves as believers. Why is that?

capmin.org

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Jesus sows on this planet, not in heaven, which is why the parable describes the field as the world.

Well dah, of course He sows on earth, everyone in heaven is saved. I implied that in my details - mentioning every nation, every tribe.
Well, I gave you my view, explained it simply and coherently and you misunderstood or twisted what I said ... I don't have much patience for that. I'm done.

 

[tailgator]

Right, I agree. How then did the tares get into the kingdom?

Some moved there and others are born there.

Now I would have to travel east to arrive in the kingdom of heaven.
You don't take that into account ,do you.That people will have to travel east or west before they arrive to the kingdom of heaven.

Mathew 11:8
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”


See,when the subjects of the kingdom are cast out ,others will be arriving.Its a long trip that I would like to make but I don't even know if I will be around a few years to make the trip.

 

[grafted branch]

From post #109

So Jesus sows everywhere,

From post #132

Well dah, of course He sows on earth, everyone in heaven is saved.

When I asked in post #108 “What area in the world got sowed that was then allowed for both the wheat and tares to grow together in?” You responded with “Jesus sows everywhere” I then make the point that He sows on earth and you say of course He does and that you plainly gave me your view.

You’re right I don’t get your view, the parable of the tares has the Son of man sowing in His field and His servants are instructed to not pull up the tares but let them grow together.

It wasn’t Satans kingdom or dominion that got sown, that field clearly belonged to the Son of man and His servants were in control and had to be commanded not to weed out the field.



All I can see about your view so far is that the world is currently owned by God, allowing it to be His field in the parable, but you have Satan ruling the world, more dominantly in some areas than others.

Then when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, that is when the tares enter the kingdom of heaven, they are then gathered by the angels, and put in the furnace.

If that is your complete view on this then, no matter how you look at it, you have unbelievers entering the kingdom after Jesus told us only born again can enter the kingdom.

 

[grafted branch]

Some moved there and others are born there.

Now I would have to travel east to arrive in the kingdom of heaven.
You don't take that into account ,do you.That people will have to travel east or west before they arrive to the kingdom of heaven.

Mathew 11:8
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”


See,when the subjects of the kingdom are cast out ,others will be arriving.Its a long trip that I would like to make but I don't even know if I will be around a few years to make the trip.

Matthew 8:11-12 definitely fits my view of how the offenders got into the kingdom.

Those who entered the kingdom through the Old Testament laws but refused to acknowledge Jesus was the Messiah, were cast out in 70AD, that’s when the old covenant that was decaying vanished.

Those who come from the east and west and enter the kingdom have to be born again. People can no longer enter the kingdom through the old covenant laws, they can now only enter through the blood of Christ (new covenant).

 

[ewq1938]

What about a verse such as Colossians 1:13?

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Before I was saved I was physically living among sinners and offenders. Now that I’m saved, I’m still physically living among sinners and offenders yet I’m translated into the Sons kingdom while the sinners and offenders are not translated into Sons kingdom.

Sou8nds like a spiritual translation because saved people live among unsaved people. I don't see the same situation with the KoH or the Father's kingdom which I think are two names for the same kingdom, the one of Rev 21 and the eternity after all unsaved are cast into the LOF.

In the parable of the tares, the angels gather both out of the kingdom, the tares/offenders and the wheat. Tares are burned and wheat is put in the barn.

The burning of the tares is exactly what happens at the GWTJ and the LOF with the wheat going into the barn, a safe protected place which would be the eternality.

Do you currently have two different kingdoms happening side by side, with believers being in both kingdoms while unbelievers only being in the kingdom that’s not the Sons?

God allows satan to rule this world. When Christ comes this world will be his, and all kingdoms his to rule in his kingdom. That kingdom will have saved and unsaved living in it known as the Millennium. On judgment day all the unsaved will be burned, and the saved will enter an eternal age which is referred to as the KoH.

 

[tailgator]

Matthew 8:11-12 definitely fits my view of how the offenders got into the kingdom.

Those who entered the kingdom through the Old Testament laws but refused to acknowledge Jesus was the Messiah, were cast out in 70AD, that’s when the old covenant that was decaying vanished.

Those who come from the east and west and enter the kingdom have to be born again. People can no longer enter the kingdom through the old covenant laws, they can now only enter through the blood of Christ (new covenant).

So how do they get to the kingdom of heaven by traveling east or west?Where exactly do they need to travel to ,to arrive at the kingdom of heaven,?

Mathew 11:8
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

[ewq1938]

How did they get into the kingdom in the first place? John 3:5 says you must be born again else you can’t enter the kingdom.

Can't enter the Kingdom of God, not just kingdom. It says "see" not "enter". "enter the kingdom" is not found in the bible.



Joh_3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This is the same kingdom said to be the father's kingdom, also as the KoH.

 

[grafted branch]

Can't enter the Kingdom of God, not just kingdom. It says "see" not "enter". "enter the kingdom" is not found in the bible.



Joh_3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This is the same kingdom said to be the father's kingdom, also as the KoH.

John 3:3 has “see” <1492> eido while John 3:5 has “enter” <1525> eiserchomai.



Here’s what Pulpit commentary says on that …

Our Lord modifies the last clause, and speaks of entering into the kingdom of God rather than perceiving or discerning the features of the kingdom. Some have urged that ἰδεῖν of ver. 3 is equivalent to εἰσελθεῖν εἰς of ver. 5. The vision, say they, is only possible to those who partake of the privileges of the kingdom. But the latter phrase does certainly express a further idea - a richer and fuller appreciation of the authority and glory of the King; just as the "birth of water and of the Spirit" conveys deeper and further thought to Nicodemus, than did the previously used expression, γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν.



And here’s Bengel’s Gnomen …

Answering to the word enter [a second time into his mother’s womb] of the previous verse. The severity of His expression increases: comp. see, John 3:3. He cannot even enter, much less see. He must enter a house, whoever wishes to see thoroughly its internal structure. That which is not born, uses neither eyes nor feet.

 

[grafted branch]

So how do they get to the kingdom of heaven by traveling east or west?Where exactly do they need to travel to ,to arrive at the kingdom of heaven,?

Mathew 11:8
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Here is how the Amplified Bible puts it …

Matthew 8:11 I say to you that many [Gentiles] will come from east and west, and will sit down [to feast at the table, and enjoy God’s promises] with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven [because they accepted Me as Savior],

It means Gentiles from all over (east and west) will partake of God’s promises. We have come to the heavenly Jerusalem from all over the world, all believers are in that one location without have to physically travel.