Getting to the heart of the Amil confusion

[jeffweeder]

This is being saved in a spirtual sense by accepting Christ while physically alive.




This "time coming" is a reference to the future bodily resurrection which we see in Rev 20.

No it is not.
This is what it is...,

25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

Bodily resurrection is clearly not in view here.

 

[ewq1938]

No it is not.
This is what it is...,

25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

Bodily resurrection is clearly not in view here.

Clearly? You can't determine that from one verse which is not in proper context.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Bodily resurrection is clearly not in view here.

You are clearly wrong.

The passage starts with both types of resurrections, a spiritual happening now, but another one coming in the future and that future one is clearly the physical resurrection.

 

[jeffweeder]

Clearly? You can't determine that from one verse which is not in proper context.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Why are you avoiding what I said.

The time that "now is" refers to a reality well before a physical bodily resurrection takes place, clearly explained in v 24 and 25.

V26 begins..,

26 For just as the Father has life in Himself [and is self-existent], even so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself [and be self-existent]. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind].


This is referring to the final righteous judgment that will happen bodily in the future.


28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].



That is explaining a final judgment and glorification event as Paul explains here....,

2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of [c]everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

 

[ewq1938]

Why are you avoiding what I said.

The time that "now is" refers to a reality well before a physical bodily resurrection takes place, clearly explained in v 24 and 25.

I addressed that which you ignored then you ignored that you were wrong that the passage was not addressing a physical resurrection.

re-read the post:

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Bodily resurrection is clearly not in view here.

You are clearly wrong.

The passage starts with both types of resurrections, a spiritual happening now, but another one coming in the future and that future one is clearly the physical resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes but they have it out of order because one does not get beheaded (physically killed) and then get saved (spiritual resurrection).

One gets saved first, then get beheaded for the witness of Jesus, then the only resurrection left would be the physical resurrection which is what Rev 20 is talking about.

Clear proof Amill's understanding of Rev 20 ignores what is actually written.

That is also why they are not martyrs. They were not of the second birth either, when they physically died. The act of being beheaded is their spiritual birth, but they can not enjoy that spiritual birth until they are physically resurrected. John never even says they ever went to heaven. They physically died on the earth and were physically resurrected on the earth, and then lived on the earth for a thousand years, and then on the new earth, after the NHNE.

They are not those on white horses at Armageddon, because they were not resurrected until after Satan was bound, which was after Armageddon, and the point where the FP and beast were cast into the LOF. This judgment and resurrection cannot even be the rapture, nor the Second Coming event.

You cannot say they accepted the second birth and then were killed. The point of being beheaded is to avoid the mark. To avoid the mark, they had to leave Adam's dead corruptible physical body. That is the whole point of being beheaded.

 

[rwb]

I addressed that which you ignored then you ignored that you were wrong that the passage was not addressing a physical resurrection.

re-read the post:

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



You are clearly wrong.

The passage starts with both types of resurrections, a spiritual happening now, but another one coming in the future and future one is clearly the physical resurrection.

Exactly! Now in this age of time we, who are not physically dead, but spiritually dead while physically alive in trespasses and sins MUST hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear have passed from spiritual death to spiritual life NOW, in this age from the first advent of Christ.

Then in the hour that is coming when the PHYSICALLY DEAD, not the spiritually dead, hear His voice and ALL the PHYSICALLY DEAD in the GRAVES shall come forth, those who have done good to resurrection life and those who have done evil the resurrection of damnation.

You admit you know the difference between being spiritually dead and physically dead, but still try to compress the hour that now is when man must be made spiritually alive, with the hour coming when EVERY DEAD BODY in the graves shall be resurrected either for life or damnation. The hour that NOW is, is only for those who are born again through Christ before the hour that is coming, but the hour coming is for the physical, bodily resurrection of ALL who are in the graves.

 

[jeffweeder]

I addressed that which you ignored then you ignored that you were wrong that the passage was not addressing a physical resurrection.

re-read the post:

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



You are clearly wrong.

You failed to quote v 24, which is what I was addressing. The time "now is" for that passing from death to life, which obviously refers to a spiritual fulfillment,...... as a physical body's transference from death to life was not apparent then...... until the future hour in v28 that includes all buried physical bodies that will rise to either a glorified body like his glorified body or judgment of the second death being the LOF.


Jn 5
26 For just as the Father has life in Himself [and is self-existent], even so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself [and be self-existent]. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind]. 28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

.
The passage starts with both types of resurrections, a spiritual happening now, but another one coming in the future and that future one is clearly the physical resurrection.

Yes.

 

[ewq1938]

You failed to quote v 24, which is what I was addressing. The time "now is" for that passing from death to life, which obviously refers to a spiritual fulfillment

You keep insisting I avoided that when I mentioned it in the two times I posted:

The passage starts with both types of resurrections, a spiritual happening now, but another one coming in the future and that future one is clearly the physical resurrection.

Are you still going to deny the passage addressed a physical resurrection? I have proven that claim of yours to be wrong.

 

[jeffweeder]

Are you still going to deny the passage addressed a physical resurrection? I have proven that claim of yours to be wrong.

As I said in my previous post, your passage did not include v24.


24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.


Clearly not about our bodily resurrection.

The narrative then speaks of Jesus as being the righteous judge, and him coming again to execute it upon the living and the dead...all in the tomb...v28



26 For just as the Father has life in Himself [and is self-existent], even so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself [and be self-existent]. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind].

28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

 

[ewq1938]

As I said in my previous post, your passage did not include v24.


24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.


Clearly not about our bodily resurrection.

But the passage does speak of the future resurrection, in verse 25 and 28-29. You are just going to ignore that forever?

 

[jeffweeder]

But the passage does speak of the future resurrection, in verse 25 and 28-29.

Nothing future about v25. The time spoken of "now is"

25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

 

[ewq1938]

Nothing future about v25. The time spoken of "now is"

25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

"a time is coming" is about the future. Still going to avoid that? Verses 28-29 would also have to be avoided.

 

[jeffweeder]

"a time is coming" is about the future. Still going to avoid that? Verses 28-29 would also have to be avoided.

V 28- is about the future, Never said otherwise lol.
Do you agree v24 is not about our future??

 

[ewq1938]

V 28- is about the future, Never said otherwise lol.
Do you agree v24 is not about our future??

As I have posted many times, it speaks of the future and the then present.

Can you explain why you don't understand that "a time is coming" is about the future?

 

[Timtofly]

As I said in my previous post, your passage did not include v24.


24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.


Clearly not about our bodily resurrection.

The narrative then speaks of Jesus as being the righteous judge, and him coming again to execute it upon the living and the dead...all in the tomb...v28



26 For just as the Father has life in Himself [and is self-existent], even so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself [and be self-existent]. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind].

28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

Of course verse 24 is about the body. You are not your body. You are the soul. The soul is not placed in a grave.

Those of the second birth have God's permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise, when the soul puts on that body after leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh on earth.

Verse 24 and 25 is about eternal life, not about your current flesh that returns to dust. Of course Jesus did not say you get a new body with the second birth. Jesus was saying you receive eternal life, thus will never physically be dead, like those waiting in sheol.

Verse 28 is for the dead, who are spiritually dead, when they come out of their graves. Those of the second birth never take part in that last hour resurrection. They are never dead after the second birth.

Eternal life is eternal, not placed on hold for any amount of time. Not an hour, not thousands of years. You don't seem to define eternal life as eternal, but only temporary, while you are still in a dead physical body. Then you claim you go back to being dead again.

Waiting as a soul without a physical body in Abraham's bosom was under the OT economy. The Cross did away with that arrangement of the valley of physical death. Once a soul born of the second birth leaves this physical body of death, that soul does not wait in death under the NT Covenant. That soul enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body to enjoy physical Paradise.

Those in Christ, upon physical death, have their day of redemption when they experience the first resurrection as part of eternal life. They leave death, and enter life. They are physically made alive from that point in their existence. Those alive on the earth cannot prevent that first resurrection from happening. Eternal life consists of both a soul and a permanent incorruptible physical body. At that point in Paradise the Holy Spirit is no longer necessary. One will never face the second death at that point, since they were already guaranteed the first resurrection upon being birthed into God's family.

Eternal life has been ongoing for all those in Christ. The second birth ensures the day of redemption upon the soul leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh behind. That body returns to dust never to be seen again.

Jesus explained: "let the dead bury the dead". Those in Christ do not bury their dead. Because those in Christ already have been made a new creation. From that point on, we are at odds with this mortal body. Once the soul leaves, it never returns to a changed mortal body, as that body returns to dust. The soul inherits a new permanent incorruptible physical body from God. Thus the first resurrection has been realized when the soul changes one physical body for the other. That is ongoing since the Cross. That is the ongoing phenomenon of John 5:24, everlasting life.

 

[Davidpt]

That body returns to dust never to be seen again.

What you are basically saying is. When Jesus died then rose, the body He died in was never seen again. Instead of rising in the body He died in, He rose in a different body altogether.

John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

And what about this?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


This doesn't say their bodies came from a different location other than where they were buried. It says their bodies came out of the very same graves they were buried in. But why, if you are correct?

 

[Timtofly]

What you are basically saying is. When Jesus died then rose, the body He died in was never seen again. Instead of rising in the body He died in, He rose in a different body altogether.

John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

And what about this?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


This doesn't say their bodies came from a different location other than where they were buried. It says their bodies came out of the very same graves they were buried in. But why, if you are correct?

I was not talking about Jesus.

Are you saying Jesus was a sinner and needed the second birth?

The OT redeemed came out of their graves in different bodies. That is how they could enter Paradise with Jesus. No one can enter heaven in Adam's flesh and blood.

2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Do you know that there are two different types of physical bodies? One from Adam and the other from God?

BTW: Jesus was born with the one from God. Jesus never had Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Jesus was never a sinner, but on the Cross, God made Jesus to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we could be made righteous. Jesus still has the same body and the same scars from the Cross.

Matthew said they came out where they were buried to visit people. Perhaps their relatives? They came out where they were buried to see people who would know them, would be my guess.

The argument is that physical bodies are not allowed in heaven. That is not what Jesus said. As in Eden, sin and death was not allowed in the Garden/Paradise. Adam and Eve had physical bodies in the Garden. But when they died. They did die as God declared. They were placed in a body of death, instead of their original body of life. Once again two bodies. They lost the one from God. They would now pass on a mortal body of death to all their offspring.

That is the physical body that can not enter Paradise. God's physical body can and did enter Paradise. That is the redemption of the body from death into life.

The soul without a body is physically and spiritually dead. A state that has been true since the first human physically died, who was not redeemed. A soul is physically dead when in a mortal body or out of a body. The only time a soul is physically alive is when the soul is in God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Why do you think Paul wrote 2 Corinthians 5:1 as if those in Corinth did know that point Paul was making, yet most today don't believe what Paul wrote?