What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?

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Aunty Jane

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At the time of physical death, our spirit person and individual soul enters the spiritual realm. (the realm of the dead)
That required a lot of tap dancing on your part to convince yourself that you don’t really die…..the devil has won.
I find NDE reports to be fascinating.
Trauma patients who were physically unconscious are able to report resuscitation activities of medical personnel.
They typically claim a view from above scene where they can clearly see and hear what is happening. How is this possible?
And medical personnel can confirm their reports of what happened while they were physically unconscious.

This is possible if the spirit body and accompanying soul (with fully functioning mind) exit the physical body but remain at the scene.
Did it ever occur to you that there is a large army of Satan’s minions who have capabilities of influencing the minds of human beings? Can these spirits invade the thinking of a dying mind?
What did Paul tell us….? What can satan do the mind of a person who is not physically dying?

2 Cor 4:3-4….
”And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.“ (NIV)

The mind of a dying person is flooded with chemicals that produce an altered state of thinking. Those who have experienced NDE’s are not dead…this is a “near death experience” not an “after death experience”.

The spirit world is inhabited by only two kinds of beings….those obedient to Yahweh, and those who follow satan….there are no dead people floating about up there……so who can make a “blinded mind” believe an image provided by a spirit entity who has observed everything that happened whilst that person was unconscious? Do you doubt their ability when you see what demonized individuals see and hear?

Drugs too, can alter people’s perceptions and usually a dying individual is in the hands of the medical system and is pumped full of all sorts of chemicals.
Do not underestimate the devil’s deceptions….or he’s gotcha.
 
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Dan Clarkston

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I posit that they died spiritually that day.

That's correct, and spiritual death means separation from the Lord as no longer in agreement or fellowship

We can learn more about this in the New Testament...

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Galatians 6:7,8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


This is why so called "once saved always saved" is false doctrine...

Adam and Eve did what lucifer did... they went from being in agreement with the Lord in to being in opposition to the Lord becoming His adversary thru rebellion
 
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Keiw

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I posit that they died spiritually that day. They were not immortal/eternal beings that became mortal in that day.
On the other hand, we are immortal beings. An afterlife awaits us all. Many aspects to explore on this.

Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1, 4-5 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, ...
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

--- ADDENDUM ---


Perhaps this is a back way in to my position that A&E died spiritually that day.
The threat of physical death was meaningless unless they were immortal beings.

However, if the consequences were spiritual death (separation from God) then that fits the plan of salvation better.
Is not our redemption intended to undo the consequences of the Fall? How does that work if the consequence was physical death?

--- SUMMARY STATEMENT ---

I launched this topic with a specific aim in mind. The answer to the topic title question.
But was mostly met with figurative blank stares as respondents seemed puzzled about my conclusion.
The answer seemed obvious to me and I had never really had to prove it to anyone before.

And initially we were bogged down with a definition of physical death.

So, the thread became an exploration of various views on the subject and a fleshing out of my own position.
I needed to provide some biblical evidence to satisfy the skeptics. Okay, fine...
Which proved to be a challenge for me. How could I substantiate what was so clear to me?
It became a discovery process as I searched for evidence. Here's what we discovered.
What sort of life and death are referred to in these passages?

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged
but has crossed over from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1-5 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air,
the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts.
Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You were dead in your transgressions and sins.
But God made you alive with Christ.
(Eph. 2:1-5)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Colossians 2:13-14
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh,
God made you[a] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us
and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

John 3:3-8 NIV
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked.
“Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you,
no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[b] must be born again.’
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where
it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[c]

Revelation 3:1 NIV
“To the angel[a] of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits[b] of God and the seven stars.
I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Romans 8:9-11 NIV
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit,
if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ,
they do not belong to Christ.
10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin,
the Spirit gives life[a] because of righteousness.
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you,
he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies
because of
[b] his Spirit who lives in you.

[
They did die spiritually that very first day they ate of the tree. To God 1000 years is as a day, thus they died physically on a day to Gods view as well.
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
At the time of physical death, our spirit person and individual soul enters the spiritual realm. (the realm of the dead)
That required a lot of tap dancing on your part to convince yourself that you don’t really die…..the devil has won.
Is that fair?
What part of physical death don't you understand?
Is there only ONE kind of death? Is there only ONE kind of life?

- Physical life/physical death
- Spiritual death/spiritual life

What kind of life did Jesus come to give? Physical or spiritual?

John 6:33 NIV
For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

[
 
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Aunty Jane

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St. SteVen said:
At the time of physical death, our spirit person and individual soul enters the spiritual realm. (the realm of the dead)
What was Sheol to a Jew, StS? “The realm of the dead” had no active thinking people in it. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
There is no ”spirit person”…there is only the physical “soul” that is you, breathing……when breathing stops, you die. Dead means dead…..it doesn’t mean another kind of “alive in another realm”.

Jews were never taught that a spiritual entity that was in them, left the body at death to go somewhere else…..all the dead went to “Sheol”….translated as “the grave” in Jewish Scripture…..no exceptions, apart from those whom Jesus consigned to Gehenna….but that is a whole other topic.
Is that fair?
What part of physical death don't you understand?
Is there only ONE kind of death? Is there only ONE kind of life?
You have obviously confused the two…..according to God’s instruction to Adam there was only one kind of death…the opposite of life….a return to the dust….(Gen 3:19) The “soul” that was Adam eventually died and returned to the elements from which he was created. Did God give him any other options? Please show them to me.

It wasn’t until Christ came that it was revealed that a person could be “dead spiritually” whist walking among the living. “Dead in their trespasses” meant that God did not count them among the ones he would save.
So who are “the saved“…and what are they saved from?
- Physical life/physical death
- Spiritual death/spiritual life

What kind of life did Jesus come to give? Physical or spiritual?
Both. Resurrection was physical and spiritual. There are two resurrections….one is to spirit life in heaven for the “chosen ones” (saints…elect, whatever you want to call them)….and a general resurrection for those not chosen for a role as “kings and priests” with Christ in his Kingdom. (Rev 20:6) A heavenly resurrection will make them spirits who can be immortal, (born again) but the resurrections that Jesus and his apostles performed in the first century were a return to life in the flesh….a demonstration of what God’s kingdom will accomplish on a grand scale in the future…… It is not immortality that these ones are promised….but everlasting life….life without end, here on earth restored to paradise, ruled by the best government we could ever have.
You have not understood the big picture…..because perhaps you do not want to.
I can’t make you.
John 6:33 NIV
For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
What “life” is that StS?….and what “world” is that?

What life did Adam take away from his children that Christ came to give us back? Life in heaven or on earth?

What was God’s Kingdom to accomplish………?
It’s “coming” was to have God’s will to be done “ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN”…..
Where does life “on earth” figure in your belief system?
 
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Grailhunter

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Looking at the precedents set early on in OT scriptures….men lived allot longer than women. Now was that true of Eve? No way of telling.

Was Adam immortal? No death in the Paradise of Delights. So yes, but not indestructible.

As humans we join the march towards death. When Adam ate of the fruit he joined that march. The scriptures do not define what the spiritual aspect of it was nor if it affected his soul.
 
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St. SteVen

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As humans we join the march towards death. When Adam ate of the fruit he joined that march. The scriptures do not define what the spiritual aspect of it was nor if it affected his soul.
I observe that A&E behaved as if they had lost their minds as soon as they ate thereof.
(because in reality, the knowledge of good and evil flooded their minds) The loss of innocence.

They were covering their "shame" and hiding from God.
Do you think that had an effect on their spirituality?

[
 

Dan Clarkston

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This is possible if the spirit body and accompanying soul (with fully functioning mind) exit the physical body but remain at the scene.

Nope... once one's soul (with spirit inside) leaves the body.... they must leave planet earth.

One has to have a functioning physical body in order to remain on earth.

The only spirits floating around here on earth is demons working for satan and the angels of the Lord working for Jesus
 

Aunty Jane

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Looking at the precedents set early on in OT scriptures….men lived allot longer than women. Now was that true of Eve? No way of telling.
Looking at the precedents of the early servants of God, (judging by the recorded genealogies) only the men are mentioned…..so where do you get the idea that men lived a lot longer than women? It doesn’t say.

It tells us how old Adam was when he died, but not Eve. It is also interesting to understand why God started the human race off as monogamous, but tolerated polygamy for most of Israel’s history. The reason? Men were killed in battle and it left the population unequal, so in order to take care of all the women, giving then an expectation of a husband, a home and children, (an important aspect of Jewish life) it was a concession that God made, but Jesus reversed it. The timing was prudent….because there was no longer an Israelite army fighting for the Promised Land. The Holy Land had not been in the possession of God’s people for many years, being conquered by a succession of world powers. Rome was the dominant power in Jesus’ day. So for Christians, the standard was reset…..one man, one wife. (Matt 19:3-9)
Was Adam immortal? No death in the Paradise of Delights. So yes, but not indestructible.
Again, why is it that no one seems to understand the difference between “immortality” and “everlasting life”?
Humans were created entirely mortal, otherwise the pentalty for talking the forbidden fruit was a nonsense….an “immortal” cannot die. Their life is indestructible.

“Everlasting life” OTOH, is granted under certain conditions….it is a life that comes into being but is subject to the terms stated by the Creator, if that life is to continue indefinitely. A mortal can die, but only if the conditions are breached….which in Eden, they were.

Is this such an impossible concept?
Paradise was where God purposed the human race to live forever….and the garden that he planted in Eden was a blueprint of what he wanted the whole world to look like. He gave that task over to the humans to exercise all the creativity and eye for beauty that he had given his earth bound children. They were to be forever youthful, perfect in body and mind to carry out such a task whilst “filling the earth” with more willing helpers.
Christendom has missed that first purpose altogether and turned the earth into a training ground for heaven…..that was never stated in God’s word. What God purposed at the beginning will be achieved at the end….but only after a necessary detour because of the abuse of free will.

As humans we join the march towards death. When Adam ate of the fruit he joined that march.
Nonsense! There was no “march to death”…where do you get that idea? Death is an enemy….to be defeated.
1 Cor 15:22-26..
“For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.”

There was no natural cause of death in Eden because death was the penalty for sin introduced by Adam….if the humans had not sinned, they never would have died. Everlasting life would have been for their eternal enjoyment in their Paradise home. Humans were put here to take care of all that God had created, doing so with the unique qualities that he gave only to the human race who would represent him here, and love everything about the life he gave them. What more could we ask, or want?
The scriptures do not define what the spiritual aspect of it was nor if it affected his soul.
Since there is no separate “soul” that leaves the body at death, this reaffirms the fact that humans were never supposed to die….but the mortal life that God gave them, meant that life could be taken away if they misused their free will, and disobeyed the only command that mentioned death.

Immortality of the soul is a satanic lie, still believed by the majority of people in the world…even those who are not Christians. Satan is the one who told the woman “you surely will not die”, when God told them that they would….so who lied? Who is still lying? Who is still falling for it?

There is a big picture that most of the posters here are missing……there is such a concentration on “going to heaven” that they miss the wonder of living on earth in paradise forever…..if there was no knowledge of evil and therefore no perpetrators of it to ever exist, would living forever on earth be so bad? No sickness or old age or death……no evil people to make life miserable for others? Living in the most beautiful surroundings with all the wonderful creatures that God made to share life here……this was God’s first purpose…and it never went away. What God starts…he finishes! (Isa 55:11)

He will never be defeated by his own creation.
 
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Dan Clarkston

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Says who?

The Lord... thru the Apostle Paul and Jesus Himself.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Also, see the teaching Jesus gave on the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31

No mention of human spirits leaving their body floating around the earth like those in cults believe (looking at you catholics)
 

Grailhunter

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Looking at the precedents of the early servants of God, (judging by the recorded genealogies) only the men are mentioned…..so where do you get the idea that men lived a lot longer than women? It doesn’t say.

It does not say.....the scriptures do not track the lifespan of women much but does track men living for centuries. For example Sarah lived 127 years, I have not found any other woman living longer than that.

It tells us how old Adam was when he died, but not Eve. It is also interesting to understand why God started the human race off as monogamous, but tolerated polygamy for most of Israel’s history. The reason?

Did God chose monogamy or was it just that there was one female? What would have happened if it was Adam and several females? Do not assume that what I am answering would mean I am defending polygamy. Be fruitful and multiply. It appears God wanted His people to be like the sands of the shore, to over run the Pagans? This was a matter of husbandry, in order to do that you would have to have multiple wives? Either way Old or New Testament God never condemned polygamy. He did say kings should not have multiple wives but on the other hand He took credit for King David's wives
 

Grailhunter

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Again, why is it that no one seems to understand the difference between “immortality” and “everlasting life”?
Humans were created entirely mortal, otherwise the pentalty for talking the forbidden fruit was a nonsense….an “immortal” cannot die. Their life is indestructible.

On the day they ate of the fruit they were no longer immortal. That is why when the scriptures say....
"on that day you shall surely die" they did not drop dead.

The rest is a bunch of Jehovah's Witness adlib.
 

Grailhunter

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Nonsense! There was no “march to death”…where do you get that idea? Death is an enemy….to be defeated.
1 Cor 15:22-26..
“For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.”

There was no natural cause of death in Eden because death was the penalty for sin introduced by Adam….if the humans had not sinned, they never would have died. Everlasting life would have been for their eternal enjoyment in their Paradise home. Humans were put here to take care of all that God had created, doing so with the unique qualities that he gave only to the human race who would represent him here, and love everything about the life he gave them. What more could we ask, or want?

What are you talking about....we do die.....there is a dead body. We have everlasting life through Christ in heaven but that is something different.

Since there is no separate “soul” that leaves the body at death, this reaffirms the fact that humans were never supposed to die….but the mortal life that God gave them, meant that life could be taken away if they misused their free will, and disobeyed the only command that mentioned death.

Immortality of the soul is a satanic lie, still believed by the majority of people in the world…even those who are not Christians. Satan is the one who told the woman “you surely will not die”, when God told them that they would….so who lied? Who is still lying? Who is still falling for it?

There is a big picture that most of the posters here are missing……there is such a concentration on “going to heaven” that they miss the wonder of living on earth in paradise forever…..if there was no knowledge of evil and therefore no perpetrators of it to ever exist, would living forever on earth be so bad? No sickness or old age or death……no evil people to make life miserable for others? Living in the most beautiful surroundings with all the wonderful creatures that God made to share life here……this was God’s first purpose…and it never went away. What God starts…he finishes! (Isa 55:11)

He will never be defeated by his own creation.

More Jehovah's Witness rhetoric.
 

Aunty Jane

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Nope... once one's soul (with spirit inside) leaves the body.... they must leave planet earth.
Can you give us one single scripture that says “ the soul leaves the body“ as a conscious living entity?
Once you swallow satan’s original lie…then there are just variations on that same theme…..there has to be somewhere for that “soul” to go because you ‘surely did not die’…..but God said that death is the opposite of life…not a continuation of it.

What leaves planet Earth are the resurrected chosen ones, (saints, elect) who are gifted with a spiritual body in order to take up their administrative positions in the heavenly Kingdom. These are specially chosen by God for a role that will bring the redeemed human race back into reconciliation with their Creator.

God’s first purpose for the human race was never in heaven. His kingdom will restore his Sovereign rule over all his creation. God handed rulership of the world over to the devil to prove that he was the better choice as the god and ruler of mankind. Allowing him to prove his case unimpeded, would ultimately destroy any basis for any challenge to God’s Sovereignty in the future. Satan’s rulership has been a dismal failure…plain for all to see in the frustrated plans of men under his control making a complete mess of things here on earth.
Its the reason why we are to be “no part of the world” alienated from God….no part of earthly human governments who always fail to achieve what they promise.
One has to have a functioning physical body in order to remain on earth.
And a resurrection, the like of which Jesus himself demonstrated when on earth, shows us what it means to remain on earth where God put us in the first place. In the Bible the resurrections were all back to this life.
God never intended us to go to heaven……paradise was to be enjoyed here on earth….but we lost it temporarily. Christ came to give us back what Adam took away from us.
The only spirits floating around here on earth is demons working for satan and the angels of the Lord working for Jesus
That is true, because the dead are peacefully sleeping in their graves, waiting for Jesus to call them out. (John 5:28-29) Once we understand why people still believe the devil’s first lie, we will understand that it gains its power from what is programmed into our hearts…..everlasting life…life without end….but to be lived in paradise conditions restored to the earth, so that resurrected mankind will see the fulfillment of God’s first purpose…..here on this beautifully prepared planet. God already has a large family of spirit beings in heaven, so why did he choose some humans to rule with Christ in his Kingdom?
How would you answer?
 
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Aunty Jane

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Did God chose monogamy or was it just that there was one female? What would have happened if it was Adam and several females?
Since the entire human race began with just two people, it is evident that incest would be involved in the production of more children. Brothers and sisters would marry and produce children. And they had forever to complete the task assigned. (Gen 5:4-5)

Since no sin was planned for the human race, (but they chose it through disobedience) incest would not have produced any genetic problems because sin was not created into those genetics. Sin came as a result of the abuse of free will. Only later was incest made forbidden as part of God’s law. The gene pool would then be so polluted that incest would produce inbred simpletons. Today, the gene pool is a cess pool.

We have Jesus‘ words to see how the human race began….
Matt 19: 3-6….
“And Pharisees came to him intent on testing him, and they asked: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of grounds?” 4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”

How many were included in the marriage? The two will become one flesh”…a man was to “stick to his wife” not “wives”. God had “yoked” the “two” together as “one flesh”, not many.
Be fruitful and multiply. It appears God wanted His people to be like the sands of the shore, to over run the Pagans?
This made me laugh….the original command to Adam and his wife was made before sin entered into the world. (Rom 5:12) Things changed after the fall….the number of God’s people was never to overrun the pagans because God‘s power was demonstrated more fully when they were outnumbered. (Judges 7:2-7)
It was never about their numbers.
You really don’t know your Bible…do you?
This was a matter of husbandry, in order to do that you would have to have multiple wives? Either way Old or New Testament God never condemned polygamy. He did say kings should not have multiple wives but on the other hand He took credit for King David's wives
Polygamy was a concession to Israel, as I have shown you, but it was not without its problems. Competing wives caused misery in some households.…Rachel and Leah….Hanna and Peninnah, to name just two biblical examples. Jealousy and bullying are not nice traits to have in one’s household.
On the day they ate of the fruit they were no longer immortal. That is why when the scriptures say....
"on that day you shall surely die" they did not drop dead.
If they were immortal to begin with, then the penalty for eating the fruit was a lie….immortals cannot die.

The “day“ they are from the fruit, having introduced sin into their DNA, and having been denied access to “the tree of life”….they began to die on that “day“…..But not a single human lived to God’s counting of a “day” (2 Peter 3:8) They did not drop dead because they had to fulfill the commission God had given them to “fill the earth” with their offspring. God would provide a savior for their now defective children. But they had to accept his sacrifice of their own free will….not through fear, but out of love and due respect for God’s loving provision.
We have everlasting life through Christ in heaven but that is something different.
Only a chosen few will see life in heaven….not all have “the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1)
Those who are specially selected for a role in heaven were to be “kings and priests”……Kings need subjects and priests need sinner for whom to perform their priestly duties. So if everyone is in heaven, over whom will these ones rule?…and for who will they act as priests?

These ones are called “firstfruits from among mankind”…and it clearly states that these are “resurrected first” (Rev 14:1-4; Rev 20:6)
In his Revelation John saw two groups attributing salvation to Christ….a small numbered group, and a vast unnumbered one. (Rev 7:4, 9-10, 13-15; Rev 21:2-4)
Please explain….
More Jehovah's Witness rhetoric.
Is that what you say when you have no answers? These kinds of replies just make you look foolish. (1 Peter 3:15)
 
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Grailhunter

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Since the entire human race began with just two people, it is evident that incest would be involved in the production of more children. Brothers and sisters would marry and produce children. And they had forever to complete the task assigned. (Gen 5:4-5)

There is no example of a brother and sister being husband and wife in the scriptures.
A religion of assumptions leads to inaccuracies.
Cain went to land of Nod and took a wife so there were more than two people. The details of all that the scriptures do not describe.
The closest thing to brother and sister being husband and wife is Abraham and Sarah which had the same father.