What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?

[St. SteVen]

--- SUMMARY STATEMENT ---

I launched this topic with a specific aim in mind. The answer to the topic title question.
But was mostly met with figurative blank stares as respondents seemed puzzled about my conclusion.
The answer seemed obvious to me and I had never really had to prove it to anyone before.

And initially we were bogged down with a definition of physical death.

So, the thread became an exploration of various views on the subject and a fleshing out of my own position.
I needed to provide some biblical evidence to satisfy the skeptics. Okay, fine...
Which proved to be a challenge for me. How could I substantiate what was so clear to me?
It became a discovery process as I searched for evidence. Here's what we discovered.
What sort of life and death are referred to in these passages?

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged
but has crossed over from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1-5 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air,
the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts.
Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You were dead in your transgressions and sins.
But God made you alive with Christ. (Eph. 2:1-5)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Colossians 2:13-14
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh,
God made you[a] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us
and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

John 3:3-8 NIV
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked.
“Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you,
no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[b] must be born again.’
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where
it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[c]

Revelation 3:1 NIV
“To the angel[a] of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits[b] of God and the seven stars.
I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Romans 8:9-11 NIV
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit,
if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ,
they do not belong to Christ.
10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin,
the Spirit gives life[a] because of righteousness.
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you,
he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies
because of[b] his Spirit who lives in you.

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[Lambano]

Here's an article from GotQuestions.org

What is spiritual death?​

Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body.

You just hit one of my pet peeves. GotQuestions.org is full of something that ain't ruah. "Death" is the cessation of life. Things that don't have souls like animals, cars, computers, hopes, dreams, et. al. die. Even if 4 out of 5 of what I just named are alive in metaphor only, the metaphor only works if "dead" equals "not-alive".

 

[St. SteVen]

You just hit one of my pet peeves. GotQuestions.org is full of something that ain't ruah. "Death" is the cessation of life. Things that don't have souls like animals, cars, computers, hopes, dreams, et. al. die. Even if 4 out of 5 of what I just named are alive in metaphor only, the metaphor only works if "dead" equals "not-alive".

Maybe that adds a third aspect to dead and alive.
Physical, spiritual, functional.

Physical: The patient in the ambulance was DOA.
Spiritual: You must be born again.
Functional: The phone line is dead.

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[St. SteVen]

You just hit one of my pet peeves. GotQuestions.org is full of something that ain't ruah. "Death" is the cessation of life. Things that don't have souls like animals, cars, computers, hopes, dreams, et. al. die. Even if 4 out of 5 of what I just named are alive in metaphor only, the metaphor only works if "dead" equals "not-alive".

As a side issue.
I wonder if animals do have souls.

Heaven will NOT be heaven if some don't find their dearly departed pets there.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

"Death" is the cessation of life.

Let's give this a closer look.
In a sense I agree, but...

I think of it more as a transfer of life to a different state.
At the cessation of physical life, the soul (personal identity/mind) lives on.
There is a physical realm and a spiritual realm.

I don't believe that "the breath of life" determines whether a soul exists or not.
I know that not everyone agrees with me on that point.
And I understand that they have biblical support for their position.

But what is it that carries on after the physical body expires?
When we face judgement, who or what is being judged?
And where did this who or what come from?

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[Aunty Jane]

As a side issue.
I wonder if animals do have souls.

No…..animals do not “have” souls….like humans they “are” souls. Since the Bible does not teach that a soul is an entity living in a body but is the fully functional, living, breathing creature…..all these “creatures” are called “souls” (nep̄eš) in the Bible.

In the creation account, in many translations, it is written that God created living “creatures”.
Gen 1:24…
”Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so.” (NASB)

That word translated “creatures” here is “nep̄eš“ which Strongs gives the primary definition as a “soul”.
It also defines this word as….

1. “that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
2. living being
3. living being (with life in the blood)
4. the man himself, self, person or individual“

So a “soul” is not a separate part of living creatures…it is the creature itself whist it breathes. (is alive)

Adam was not “given” a “soul”, but “became” one when God started him breathing. (Gen 2:7)
All “souls” are mortal…..because the words “immortal soul” do not appear in any verse of the Bible.

Solomon wrote in Eccl 3:19-20….
“For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath (rûaḥ) and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.”

The “spirit” in living creatures is rûaḥ….their “breath of life”….which is what God gave Adam to bring him to life.

Do we then have any idea what fusing those two very different words (soul and spirit) to basically mean the same thing has done for the devil’s lie that ‘we do not die’?
What is the expectation of most of those who identify as “Christians”? Do they believe that we really die?

The Bible says that all living things die and go to the same place. Only man was promised everlasting life contingent on his obedience….his disobedience resulted in him dying the same death as the animals…having no superiority over them in death, but in being rescued from death by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. A resurrection was promised….(John 5:28-29)….but not until the ‘coming of God’s Kingdom’…the one Jesus taught us to pray for so that God’s will could “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.

Both realms would come to be cleansed of the disobedient ones who derailed God’s original purpose for us here on this planet. God’s Kingdom under Christ will restore all that we lost, so that God’s will is the only one that will govern human behavior in our eternal future…..as well as being observed by the faithful angels who did not succumb to the devil’s influence.

The big picture is nothing close to what those in the disunited muddle that is Christendom, have been taught.

Heaven will NOT be heaven if some don't find their dearly departed pets there.

Since heaven was never meant to be the destination for humankind in the first place, why assume that all must go there?…..how will God’s will be done ON EARTH if there are no humans here to carry it out?

God has chosen a relative “few” to rule with Christ in heaven…these will undergo a “new birth” when they are resurrected to take up their assignments as “kings and priests“ in that Kingdom. (Rev 20:6) This is what it means to be “born again”…it is not a feeling, but a reality for the elect (chosen ones).
Jesus himself said…”for many be called, but few chosen.”
Who are these “chosen” kings to rule over? For whom are they to act as priests?

Since life on earth was the only one purposed for the human race, why do you assume that heaven must have animals? These are specific to the earthly realm where God designed them and us to live…creating an environment for all his creatures so that they had all the necessary life support right here.

Your scenario makes no sense….you seem to have no ‘big picture’, and so it appears that you have created your own, but what is it based on?….…others may share your view because of the basic doctrinal lies that Christendom has been feeding its members for centuries. How many versions of “Christianity” are there?
How many should there be?

The “weeds” of Jesus parable were not sown recently….so Paul could write about a spiritual warfare that all Christians must fight…..
2 Cor 10:4-5….
“The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. (ochyrōma) We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.” (NIV)

What are these “strongholds” that must be demolished….and how are they to be dealt with?
“ochyrōma” is defined as…

1. “a castle, stronghold, fortress, fastness
2. anything on which one relies
   1. of the arguments and reasonings by which a disputant endeavours to fortify his opinion and defend it against his opponent”.

Are Christendom’s doctrines, like a fortress? Do people rely on them and use their skewed reasonings to fortify their many conflicting opinions? A little research will show that none of their doctrines find their origins in God’s word. The confusion they have created is all their own work, influenced of course by the same enemy that Jesus spoke about…the sower of those “weeds“. (Matt 13: 24-30; 36-42)

“The knowledge of God” is found only in one place, and the author of that knowledge made sure that most humans could have access to it in their own language as these “last days” draw to a close.

The “wheat” exist in the world, along with the “weeds”, but only God will guide us to the truth, if we do not hinder his spirit by doubling down on our own chosen version of it. God will never “draw” such a person. (John 6:44; 65)
We have to remember that the devil too can quote Scripture….and has the ability to “blind minds” (2 Cor 4:3-4)

No one in this age has an excuse for ignorance….it is therefore an ignorance of choice.

 

[St. SteVen]

No…..animals do not “have” souls….like humans they “are” souls. Since the Bible does not teach that a soul is an entity living in a body but is the fully functional, living, breathing creature…..all these “creatures” are called “souls” (nep̄eš) in the Bible.

What do you make of this?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 NIV
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic.

What is the gospel message to you?

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

What do you make of this?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 NIV
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Context is what is missing by quoting only the words you have….I have dealt with this mistaken understanding many times…

To whom is this addressed?
Paul says…”Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, (adelphos) to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you in the Lord and who admonish you.“
So Paul is speaking to the congregation as a collective, not to individuals.

He goes on to say….
”And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone. Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else. . . .May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, (pneuma) soul (psychē) and body (sōma) be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it. Brothers and sisters, pray for us.“ (NIV) (1 Thess 1:1, 12, 13, 23, 25, 26)

The “spirit, soul and body” of the congregation is not a declaration that individuals have a “body soul and spirit“ (in the sense that it is understood in Christendom), but this is addressed to a wide audience including Jewish believers who understood that humans are “souls” and that they are mortal and they die.

Jews did not believe in an immortal, spiritual part of man left the body at death, to go somewhere else…..but later adopted this belief from the pagan Greeks, who also believed in a fiery hell….they were taught about resurrection, which is a restoration of life, not a continuation of it in some other place. God created humans to live on earth forever. He never changed that. But he did invite a privileged few to be part of that governmental arrangement of the Kingdom of God, to bring redeemed mankind back into reconciliation with their rightful Sovereign.
Since God is the one who chooses these ones, no one can presume to be chosen just because they think that this is their destiny. We are all programmed to live in paradise…..but here on earth as God intended. God gives his chosen ones a different desire to the rest of us. They don’t confuse an earthly paradise with a life of purpose as “kings and priests” in heaven. (Rev 20:6)

It is important to understand the origins of what we are led to believe, otherwise the devil’s propaganda will seem like the truth, and the truth will appear to be a lie……his old tricks still work because human nature does not change. We have short memories.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
What do you make of this?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 NIV
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The “spirit, soul and body” of the congregation is not a declaration that individuals have a “body soul and spirit“ (in the sense that it is understood in Christendom), but this is addressed to a wide audience including Jewish believers who understood that humans are “souls” and that they are mortal and they die.

What?
The “spirit, soul and body” of the congregation? (sigh)
Okay, thanks.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Sometimes I think people open up the context wide enough to find a way to dismiss the obvious.

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sometimes I think people open up the context wide enough to find a way to dismiss the obvious.

Or satan has some excellent land to sell you at the North Pole…right next door to Santa Claus….

If you knew the beliefs of the ones to whom the Scriptures were originally written, (especially the Jews, since Jesus and all of his apostles were Jewish) and the meanings of the original language words they used and in what context….a whole new scope of spiritual truth emerges. If you keep your mind closed, It means satan is standing guard at the door, not allowing the truth to infiltrate….are you letting him?

Only an open mind will grasp the truth because to everyone else it seems like a lie. Only God can draw us to that truth…..satan sees to it that it repels everyone else.

 

[Lambano]

I think of it more as a transfer of life to a different state.
At the cessation of physical life, the soul (personal identity/mind) lives on.

Does the soul live on, or does God resurrect it in a different kind of body?

(The leader of our Bible study class once stated, right before Easter, that he didn't get what the big deal was about the Resurrection. We'd just had a run of about a funeral every week, and as the sound tech, I had to attend them all. I heard all the verses about Resurrection. If the soul is immortal, what's the big deal about resurrection? Why not live on in a disembodied state?)

 

[Lambano]

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ever wonder what a "soul" is, and how it differs from a "spirit"?

 

[Lambano]

As a side issue.
I wonder if animals do have souls.

Heaven will NOT be heaven if some don't find their dearly departed pets there.

[

"Sir, if you don't believe in Doggie Heaven, you can take your spurious theology elsewhere." - Steve Brown

 

[St. SteVen]

Does the soul live on, or does God resurrect it in a different kind of body?

That's where my "transfer of life to a different state." comes in.
Or, better put, to a different location. (the realm of the dead)

(The leader of our Bible study class once stated, right before Easter, that he didn't get what the big deal was about the Resurrection. We'd just had a run of about a funeral every week, and as the sound tech, I had to attend them all. I heard all the verses about Resurrection. If the soul is immortal, what's the big deal about resurrection? Why not live on in a disembodied state?)

We say that Jesus was "raised from the dead", which is a curious phrase.
What, or where is THE dead? In like fashion we say Jesus was risen from THE grave.
But he was laid in an above ground tomb. He was not buried in the dirt. (A grave)
Jesus himself said he would be three days in the heart of the earth. (the realm of the dead)

I posit that "the grave" (or, "the dead") is in reference to the realm of the dead. (Sheol/Hades)

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

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[Brakelite]

If there was no death, then there was no need for creatures to reproduce. Yet God not only created them with the ability to reproduce, but commanded them to do so. Without death, the earth would very quickly have been overpopulated.

If there was no death and people continued to reproduce , God would have wound up the program a long time ago as the number of angels to replace would have been complete.

 

[Brakelite]

As a side issue.
I wonder if animals do have souls.

Heaven will NOT be heaven if some don't find their dearly departed pets there.

[

If humans come have souls, then why should animals?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ever wonder what a "soul" is, and how it differs from a "spirit"?

Oh, yes.
I have that pretty well worked out in my own mind. But it is a very controversial subject.

The body is the physical home we now inhabit. At some point we will leave that home.
What you call "the cessation of life." (I would add "physical")

The spirit, our spirit, is our home/body for life in the spiritual realm.
And actually, our spirit is also inhabiting our physical body, awaiting physical death when it will depart.

The soul is our spiritual identity as a person. As some put it, we ARE a living soul.
Our mind, will and emotions. The memories of our life. When we stand in judgment, that is the person
that will answer for our own life. Every word and act.

Therefore, in our current state, we have a physical body inhabited by our spirit person which is identified as an individual soul.

At the time of physical death, our spirit person and individual soul enters the spiritual realm. (the realm of the dead)

I find NDE reports to be fascinating.
Trauma patients who were physically unconscious are able to report resuscitation activities of medical personnel.
They typically claim a view from above scene where they can clearly see and hear what is happening. How is this possible?
And medical personnel can confirm their reports of what happened while they were physically unconscious.

This is possible if the spirit body and accompanying soul (with fully functioning mind) exit the physical body but remain at the scene.

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

Does the soul live on, or does God resurrect it in a different kind of body?

There is no scripture that says “the soul lives on” after death. This is a satanic lie…”you surely will not die” was the first lie…and is still widely believed, even though the Bible has no mention of it. There is not one single verse in the Bible that speaks about an “immortal soul” surviving death.
This message is not getting through because humans, who are not programmed for death, cannot accept that it happens.
The devil knows that this is the case, so he will feed you what your heart tells you must be true…we cannot simply die and be no more…..yet that is exactly what happens. Death is the opposite of life.

Eccl 9:5,6,10…(NIV)
”For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a partin anything that happens under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, [sheol] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.”

Does this sound like the dead are active and conscious somewhere else? Does love vanish when we die?
What is this “realm of the dead” [sheol]? The Jewish Tanakh renders this word as “the grave”. It is a place where the dead “sleep” in an unconscious condition.

Jesus confirmed this when he raised his friend Lazarus….
John 11:11-15….
“After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” (NIV)

Why was Jesus glad for their sakes that he was not present to cure his friend before he died, as his sister mentioned. (John 11:21) This was so that they would “believe“ in the resurrection by seeing it with their own eyes. Was this the raising of a spirit? Were any of the resurrections performed in the Bible (apart from Jesus himself) the raising of a spirit? Every single one was the restoration of the life lost, returned to the arms of their family. This is what the resurrection is all about….undoing death and removing its cause.

(The leader of our Bible study class once stated, right before Easter, that he didn't get what the big deal was about the Resurrection. We'd just had a run of about a funeral every week, and as the sound tech, I had to attend them all. I heard all the verses about Resurrection. If the soul is immortal, what's the big deal about resurrection? Why not live on in a disembodied state?)

If one is taught the right meaning of resurrection, then expectations will never be disappointed and grief though heartfelt, will not last forever.….knowing that it is God’s intention to resurrect the dead….we know that we will see them again.

We have been plunged into this sinful death dealing state through no fault on our part….but that doesn’t mean that we have no power over sin in our actions. Sin is a choice, but death is not. Unless God removed the cause of death, we have no hope. Christ came to atone for our sin and eventually, when it is God’s due time, his sacrifice will eliminate sin and death forever….along with the one who caused it, and all who chose of their own free will, to follow him.

Jesus told us…
”Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil to a resurrection of judgment.” (NASB)
If the dead are called from their tombs, then they must all still be in them.
Was Jesus talking about plucking them from some mysterious place where they have been waiting for maybe thousands of years for this to happen? How cruel would that be? Especially if you believe that the dead are still alive and watching what is happening down here to their loved ones……how could heaven be a happy place?

There are two resurrections spoken about in the Scriptures…..the “first resurrection” is mentioned in the NT.
Once at 1 Thess 4:15-16…
”For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” (NASB)
So “the dead in Christ” will “rise first”….who are those who are “dead in Christ”?

And at Rev 20:6 answers…
”Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years”. (NASB)

So these scriptures tell us that those who will reign with Christ in heaven are “resurrected first”…..they experience a very different resurrection to the rest of mankind. They die a death like Christ’s in the flesh, and are raised in the spirit like he was. (1 Pet 3:18) These alone are “born again” in a new spiritual body in order to dwell in the presence of God In heaven.

But Jesus spoke of another resurrection of the dead, when his Kingdom is ruling and redeemed mankind can resume their lives here on earth. Those taken to heaven will rule those who will live on the earth, where God intended us to live all along. A thousand years of this kingdom rulership will see the human race restored to their original sinless perfection…but they will have to pass one last test of loyalty and obedience to Yahweh when satan is released from his prison. (Rev 20:1-3)
‘All Christians going to heaven’ was never the Bible’s message…in fact this aspect of the Kingdom was not revealed until Pentecost and the outpouring and anointing of God’s spirit. Even as Jesus was ascending to heaven his apostles expected the Kingdom to be established on earth at that time. (Acts 1:6) They were told to wait for the promised holy spirit, which would “seal” them in advance of their future resurrection.

This is the only logical conclusion one can draw, but only if they put down the notion of an immortal soul…..only then can the light of truth shine to reveal a very wonderful future…one that God had planned from the start (Isa 55:11; Rev 21:2-4), but had to make a detour because of the abuse of free will.…firstly in one of his powerful spirit sons…and then it spread to the whole human race.

God’s solution, administered in Universal time, will ultimately achieve his goal in a way that sets precedents for all eternity to come…..there will never be a basis to usurp Yahweh’s Universal Sovereignty, ever again.
Masterful!