Getting to the heart of the Amil confusion

[rwb]

That’s nonsense. Jesus said God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not a god of the dead.

In order to be a part of the Body of Christ you have to have the Holy Spirit. In order to be a part of the first resurrection of the dead in Christ you must be bodily resurrected as is shown in Rev. 20:4-6.

Your argument is with the Word of God!

You're making my argument for me. The FACT that Abaham also is of the God, among the living, linking the physically dead Abraham, Isaac and Jacob among the living, proves that physical death does not keep the faithful dead from being spiritually alive with Christ in heaven after physical death. According to Christ this truth becomes a reality when we have part in Christ's resurrection. If Christ was referring to the bodily resurrection that shall be in an hour coming, when the last trumpet sounds, and time shall be no longer, He would not have said in the resurrection "are equal unto the angels/as the angels of God in heaven." Spirit beings, not of flesh & blood are those who do not marry being espoused to Christ, who is the Husband of His body (Church), and cannot die because they possess eternal life through the Spirit of Christ, as children of the resurrection, not the physical bodily resurrection that shall come, but the "first resurrection" that shall be after Christ is resurrected from the dead. NOW, after Christ makes atonement for sin, and defeats death through His cross and resurrection (the first to be immortally resurrected to life again), whosoever of Old and New who die/died in Christ are ALIVE (souls), the living spiritual body of saints in heaven after physical death, by grace through faith, having part in the resurrection life of Christ, by grace through faith. Because God is not God of the dead, but of the living.

Luke 20:34-38 (KJV) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Am I right In believing ,that you believe your body has been Born Again?

Or am I misunderstanding your post?

You are misunderstanding my post. When you are born again your body does not change, it is your heart/mind/spirit that is changed.

But in the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the last day the Body of Christ( the Church) is resurrected bodily and given immortal bodies.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Your argument is with the Word of God!

Show me the verse in the words of God that state what you claim below…
rwb said:
The Holy Spirit being with them, was not permanently in them,

The FACT that Abaham is the God of the living,

Also show me in the words of God where it says “Abaham is the God of the living.”

ROFL!

 

[WPM]

BEING BORN OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD
PLACES AN INDIVIDUAL IN CHRIST

CAUSING THE INDIVIDUAL'S DEAD | DYING BODY
TO BE QUICKENED

WHICH WILL PRODUCE

THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY FROM DEATH
(WITH CHRIST'S RESURRECTION), WHEN HE RETURNS,
​

The act of quickening our physical bodies does not happen upon salvation, as you claim, but at the second coming, when we are glorified. Jesus was not quickened and resurrected until after He was dead on the 3rd day.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[rwb]

Show me the verse in the words of God that state what you claim below…
rwb said:
The Holy Spirit being with them, was not permanently in them,

Also show me in the words of God where it says “Abaham is the God of the living.”

ROFL!

I've already shown you, but apparently you simply ignore or twist any verse or passage that proves you have little understanding of Scripture.
I see you're again being obtuse! I realize you may not be the brightest bulb in the package, but even you I would hope are smart enough to recognize a misprint. You know I meant to say Abaraham is among those living unto God, the context for what I said proves this, but of course you already know that, but in pride you twist what you cannot biblically disprove. But I don't want to cause simple minds further confusion, so I've corrected my reply.

You're so filled with pride you ROFL now because you really can't help yourself! You are a deceiver, and we know that when God calls all deceivers to stand before His judgment throne, I doubt there will be laughing then.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

I've already shown you,

No you didn’t.
Show me the verse in the words of God that state what you claim below…
rwb said:
The Holy Spirit being with them, was not permanently in them,

Also show me in the words of God where it says “Abaham is the God of the living.”

ROFL!

 

[Davidpt]

I've already shown you, but apparently you simply ignore or twist any verse or passage that proves you have little understanding of Scripture.
I see you're again being obtuse! I realize you may not be the brightest bulb in the package, but even you I would hope are smart enough to recognize a misprint. You know I meant to say Abaraham is among those living unto God, the context for what I said proves this, but of course you already know that, but in pride you twist what you cannot biblically disprove. But I don't want to cause simple minds further confusion, so I've corrected my reply.

You're so filled with pride you ROFL now because you really can't help yourself! You are a deceiver, and we know that when God calls all deceivers to stand before His judgment throne, I doubt there will be laughing then.

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


Come on now. The context is the bodily resurrection. None of it has anything to do with the state anyone is in after they physically die but before they bodily rise. That's not the point Jesus was making. Amils are adding that to the text.

Can you not see what verse 26 plainly says--- And as touching the dead, that they rise? What does any of that have to do with how Amils interpret Revelation 20:4-6? He is saying He is the God of the living because Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that He mentioned, are not going to be physically dead forever. One day they are going to be physically alive again, but for forever this time.

One thing Amils are notorious for at times is disregarding context and then conflating things because of that. They certainly do that in Revelation 20:4-6 and they are certainly doing it per this passage I just submitted. Nowhere in that passage is it pertaining to anyone in a disembodied state. That's not the context. The context is the bodily resurrection which can't even happen until Christ returns first. So what if Abraham is in a disembodied state in the meantime? That is beside the point, not the context instead.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Come on now. The context is the bodily resurrection.

They don’t care, when they see the word resurrection to them it means born again spiritually. Lol

 

[WPM]

One thing Premils are notorious for at times is disregarding context and then conflating things because of that. They certainly do that in Revelation 20:4-6 and they are certainly doing it per this passage I just submitted. Nowhere in that passage is it pertaining to anyone in a disembodied state. That's not the context. The context is the bodily resurrection which can't even happen until Christ returns first. So what if Abraham is in a disembodied state in the meantime? That is beside the point, not the context instead.

More classic Premil projection. This is a willful lie. And you wonder why few Amils respect you. One thing Premils are notorious for at times is disregarding context and then conflating things because of that. They certainly do that in Revelation 20:4-6.

 

[WPM]

They don’t care, when they see the word resurrection to them it means born again spiritually. Lol

More lies. The opposite is the truth. The reason Premils have to misrepresent Amil is because they cannot deal with what it actually teaches. You cannot refute that.

 

[rwb]

The Old Testament saints were saved in the same way we are saved after the first advent of Christ. According to grace through faith. The Holy Spirit being with them, was not permanently in them, but Scripture shows us through John the Baptist the Spirit in those who believed the words the prophets spoke, that the Savior/Redeemer would come to save those who believed in Him.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Luke 1:13-15 (KJV) But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Here again is reply #154, that it appears you partially ignored. Reply #156 proves you simply ignore whatever doesn't agree with your unbiblical doctrines of man. Typical! There is no ambiguity in the words of Christ, telling His disciples that He would send the Holy Spirit to be in them unto the end of this age. Before Christ sent Him to be in them, the Spirit dwelt with them. Scripture describes the Spirit coming again and again upon men of Old, because His presence was not permanently in them. Through John the Baptist I show you that even though the Holy Spirit before the advent of Christ was not always permanently in men/women of Old, the Spirit still filled some from Old, as He did with John the Baptist, who was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb.

No you didn’t.
Show me the verse in the words of God that state what you claim below…
rwb said:
The Holy Spirit being with them, was not permanently in them,

Also show me in the words of God where it says “Abaham is the God of the living.”

ROFL!

I allowed your arrogance to get under my skin, and I replied to your ROFL in kind! For that I apologize, because I am convicted by the Spirit of God in me that replying in kind is seldom beneficial. But I have not changed my mind that arrogance and pride cause you to promote doctrines you know are false, and that makes you no longer being deceived, but a deceiver.

 

[Davidpt]

They don’t care, when they see the word resurrection to them it means born again spiritually. Lol

Since Amils are applying a disembodied state rather than a bodily state to the saints in Revelation 20:4 after they are physically dead then seen living and reigning with Christ, this apparently means they place a disembodied state above that of a bodily state. They see the former being the greater of the two apparently, otherwise you would think they would be applying a bodily state to dead saints once these saints begin to live and reign with Christ.

Even a lot of Premils agree, that upon death the soul/spirit goes to heaven and is present there in a disembodied state until it is the time for the bodily resurrection. No Premil would call that the first resurrection, though. No Premil would think this is meaning anyone is reigning over the earth with Jesus, with them depicted sitting on thrones in heaven while in a disembodied state. That sounds like something out of the Catholic playbook, not something out of the Bible, except I'm not Catholic. What next? Should we be praying to departed saints since they are allegedly reigning over the earth with Jesus while they are in disembodied state?

After all, to reign with Christ a thousand years means to co-reign with Him over something. IMO, there is a difference between reigning with and being reigned over.

For example.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


Compared with.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

To prove what I have underlined is not the same idea, take The Father and Jesus, for example. Would anyone dare suggest that Jesus is reigning over the Father rather than reigning with the Father over something? Clearly then, just like I said, there is a difference between these two things. What is it then that Amils think one in a disembodied state is reigning over with Jesus? What is Jesus reigning over? The earth, right? Among other things as well, of course. In what way is someone in a disembodied state in heaven reigning over the earth with Jesus? I don't get it?

 

[rwb]

That’s nonsense. Jesus said God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not a god of the dead.

In order to be a part of the Body of Christ you have to have the Holy Spirit. In order to be a part of the first resurrection of the dead in Christ you must be bodily resurrected as is shown in Rev. 20:4-6.

You've lost me here! God is the God of the DEAD Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? No, He is the God of the living! For that reason Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through long ago physically dead are still alive through faith. How can we know this? Because Christ tells us about a place of those of Old who physically died believing in the promised Messiah who was to come. While unbelievers went into the grave, those from Old of faith went to the place of the dead from Old, called Abraham's bosom. Faithful saints have always been set apart by God, and after the cross before the spirit of Christ ascended to the Father in heaven, He first went into this place of the dead from Old to set the captives free. Because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. So faithful saints of Old ascended alive (living souls) as the spiritual body of Christ with Christ when He returned back to the Father in heaven.

See the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[Davidpt]

You've lost me here! God is the God of the DEAD Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? No, He is the God of the living! For that reason Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through long ago physically dead are still alive through faith. How can we know this? Because Christ tells us about a place of those of Old who physically died believing in the promised Messiah who was to come. While unbelievers went into the grave, those from Old of faith went to the place of the dead from Old, called Abraham's bosom. Faithful saints have always been set apart by God, and after the cross before the spirit of Christ ascended to the Father in heaven, He first went into this place of the dead from Old to set the captives free. Because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. So faithful saints of Old ascended alive (living souls) as the spiritual body of Christ with Christ when He returned back to the Father in heaven.

See the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Try reasoning it like this instead. How can God be the God of the living unless someone in a disembodied state can rise bodily and live forever? Can they live forever while in a disembodied state? Could Jesus live forever while He was in a disembodied state, meaning while He was physically dead? To be in disembodied state means to be physically dead. Not one single person while still physically dead can live forever bodily. Not even Jesus could. Amils need to quit conflating a disembodied state with that of a bodily state. The only state that matters and counts is the bodily state. A disembodied state is temporary. A bodily state is permanent.

 

[rwb]

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


Come on now. The context is the bodily resurrection. None of it has anything to do with the state anyone is in after they physically die but before they bodily rise. That's not the point Jesus was making. Amils are adding that to the text.

It doesn't surprise me that you, being Premillennialist can only believe what you can see with physical sight, or physically interpreted. Because you have no understanding of the Kingdom of God that Christ came to earth a man with. A Kingdom that is NOT of this world, cannot be physically observed, can only be known and entered by those who have been born again of the Spirit, and the Kingdom of God within you.

With all that is written about the (((spiritual))) Kingdom of God, you, like the Pharisee's of Old along with every other Premillennialist insist there cannot be a Kingdom of God if you cannot SEE it with your own physical eyesight! Since there is not NOW, according to your unbiblical doctrine, a Kingdom of God, there cannot be saints having eternal life spiritually dwelling with Christ in His Kingdom, where He is NOW seated on the throne ruling and reigning over His creation. Without the Spirit to teach you these things, you remain in knowledge of Scripture a natural man without ability to know the things that are from above.

Can you not see what verse 26 plainly says--- And as touching the dead, that they rise? What does any of that have to do with how Amils interpret Revelation 20:4-6? He is saying He is the God of the living because Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that He mentioned, are not going to be physically dead forever. One day they are going to be physically alive again, but for forever this time.

You believe these saints of Old did not rise together with Christ ALIVE, the spiritual body of Christ? These saints of Old, belonging to Christ are the firstfruits (((spiritually))) because in life they lived and reigned with Christ, by FAITH! I've got a news flash for you, yes, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob breathed their last physically, and their mortal body returned to dust from which they came, their spirit NEVER died! Their spirit returned to God who gave it filled with life through the power of God in them. Because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. That would not be a true statement if death of their body meant death also for their living soul! You simply make up your through your own imagination what you try to force the text to be saying. Because it is apparent that you have not a clue of what it means to have eternal/everlasting life according to grace through faith. You seem to think eternal/everlasting life gained can be lost and then apparently regained again, and again??? Scripture tells us that whosoever (of Old & New) lives and believes in Christ shall NEVER die! That means physical death cannot kill our eternal spirit/soul when we die in faith.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Try reasoning it like this instead. How can God be the God of the living unless someone in a disembodied state can rise bodily and live forever? Can they live forever while in a disembodied state? Could Jesus live forever while He was in a disembodied state, meaning while He was physically dead? To be in disembodied state means to be physically dead. Not one single person while still physically dead can live forever bodily. Not even Jesus could. Amils need to quit conflating a disembodied state with that of a bodily state. The only state that matters and counts is the bodily state. A disembodied state is temporary. A bodily state is permanent.

Listen... in Matthew 17:9 about Moses and Elijah...appeared and spoke with Jesus Christ at the Mount of Transfiguration. Peter, James and John saw them. What were their bodies like? Was it "temporary" before Christ went to the Cross? Or are you going to deny this altogether by saying it's just a supernatural "vision" rather than real physical events and conclude that Moses and Elijah were not truly there, perhaps, because they were not supposed to have bodies or be alive at that time before the Cross?

 

[Ritajanice]

No you didn’t.
Show me the verse in the words of God that state what you claim below…
rwb said:
The Holy Spirit being with them, was not permanently in them,

Can you also show us the verse that says, the Holy Spirit was permanently in them?

 

[rwb]

Try reasoning it like this instead. How can God be the God of the living unless someone in a disembodied state can rise bodily and live forever? Can they live forever while in a disembodied state? Could Jesus live forever while He was in a disembodied state, meaning while He was physically dead? To be in disembodied state means to be physically dead. Not one single person while still physically dead can live forever bodily. Not even Jesus could. Amils need to quit conflating a disembodied state with that of a bodily state. The only state that matters and counts is the bodily state. A disembodied state is temporary. A bodily state is permanent.

Why would I use reasoning from Premillennialists who have NO, ZERO, NADA understanding of the Kingdom of God? The only part of mankind of faith to HAVE ETERNAL LIFE after physical death is the spirit of man indwelt with power from on high through the Holy Spirit. Yes, the spirit of man who dies in faith most assuredly is ALIVE FOREVER! But here you go again consumed with physical flesh rather than trying to understand the SPIRITUAL KINGDOM OF GOD that Christ came to this earth with. The Kingdom of God that is NOW, since the advent of Christ, being built spiritually as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the world and whosoever hears and believes the Gospel is ETERNALLY SAVED through the power of Almighty God! But like the Pharisee's of Old you REFUSE to believe unless you can see, touch that which is within you.

 

[Davidpt]

Listen... in Matthew 17:9 about Moses and Elijah...appeared and spoke with Jesus Christ at the Mount of Transfiguration. Peter, James and John saw them. What were their bodies like? Was it "temporary" before Christ went to the Cross? Or are you going to deny this altogether by saying it's just a supernatural "vision" rather than real physical events and conclude that Moses and Elijah were not truly there, perhaps, because they were not supposed to have bodies or be alive at that time before the Cross?

With what you submitted in mind. Here is an interesting passage below everyone should also be familiar with. Do you then think Samuel came up bodily?

1 Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 ¶And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

 

[Zao is life]

Matthew 22:31-32

Jesus: "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (záō - of those who are alive in the body)."

It's evident from the text which states that the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees with the above statement, that the Pharisees knew that even the Sadducees understood that they could bring no further argument against the resurrection of the body from the dead to Jesus. They were silenced.

Amillennialists: ("Let's change the meaning of this"):

"As touching eternal spiritual life in Christ through the spiritual resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of those who are spiritually alive in Christ."

Changing the meaning of the words of Christ - and of many passages of scripture - is a thing with Amillennialism, and the thing that marks Amil theology. But they have the same problem the Pharisees and Sadducees had with regard to scripture: When faced with a choice between what scripture is actually saying and what their theology teaches scripture is saying, they adhere to faith in their theology.

The reason why the Pharisees and Sadducees were both condemned though, was because of their rejection of Christ. Jesus' words to the Sadducees concerning their theology regarding the resurrection of the body from the dead could perhaps not even be considered a rebuke, because He simply said, "You are sorely mistaken".

But the mindset of the Amillennialists, who because of their faith in their own theology whenever and wherever scripture disagrees with Amillennialism, change the meaning of many New Testament passages in order to attempt to have scripture comply with their false theology, is certainly reminiscent of the mindset of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

It's always very noticeable how quickly they resort to PERSONAL insults - ad hominem attacks - at anyone and everyone who disagrees with them and tells them what the scriptures are actually saying.

Anyway when they realize how sorely mistaken they were, they may not? receive a rebuke for their mistaken theology - but they might receive a rebuke for the many personal attacks they may have leveled against those who disagreed with them.

Either way they will have to face more than a little measure of embarrassment.

And it doesn't matter to Premillennialists, because truth - the truth regarding every matter concerning God and His creatures - was in Christ already from before the world began, and Amillennialists cannot change the truth which is in Christ no matter how many scriptures they change the meaning of, in their futile attempts to get scripture to comply with their theology.

@Stewardofthemystery @Davidpt