This is the source of your argument - "take it from me." You deny the first resurrection of Christ. That is heresy.
Getting to the heart of the Amil confusion
- Thread starter Stewardofthemystery
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The source of my understanding is from the Living Word of God Jesus Christ.
No thanks, I don’t take the lies of strangers as the Truth.
Amils always try to prop up straw man arguments when their lies are exposed. If you call me a heretic, then you are also calling Paul a heretic. But that was also prophesied to happen.
Revelation 13:6
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
If any "Amils" are claiming that, then they are... bad "Amils." :) The first resurrection is individual, and cumulative and is still ongoing at this time. When the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in and the partial hardening that is now on Israel is removed... and thus all of Israel saved... when all those who are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ are born again of the Spirit and raised and seated with Christ in the heavenly places, then the first resurrection will be completely past. I've said this many, many times, even in this thread. Yes, for those who have been born again and are thus Christians, the first resurrection is past for them specifically, but some are appointed to this first resurrection but have not experienced it yet.
Well the warning is for all of us. But what you think I'm saying is not really what I'm saying at all. And frankly, since I've said what I said here in this post several times before, it causes me to wonder why... It seems to me the only two possibilities are that:
1) you're not reading what I have said at all
...or...
2) that you're just purposely misstating what I'm saying. <smile>
Neither one of those is good... <smile>
Ah, maybe there's a third possibility, that you just don't understand what I've been saying, but I've been very, very clear. If that's the case, then maybe this time you'll get it... <smile>
One more thing:
Jesus's resurrection is the precursor to and the guarantee of what our second (not first) resurrection will be. <smile>
Paul says over and over again throughout his letters (and he's not the only one; Peter and John do, too) that we Christians have already experienced a resurrection (i.e., in Ephesians 2:6... we have been raised up in spirit and seated in spirit with Christ...). Yes, on an individual basis, as I said above, for us Christians, this resurrection is past. But people are still coming to Christ even today, so the collective first resurrection is not past yet. This is the "first resurrection" of Revelation 20. As Paul says in Romans 6:5, "...if we have been united with Him in a death like his..." ~ and we have ~ "...we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His." There, he is speaking of the physical resurrection at the end of the age, and the "second resurrection," ('second' meaning final, permanent, eternal) implicit in Revelation 20 (happening upon Jesus's return, immediately prior to the opening of the judgment scene starting in Revelation 20:11.
Grace and peace to you, SOTM.
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Nah, he (or she?) misunderstands what it is. That's not heresy, it's just misunderstanding. And that's okay. <smile> Really, though... It doesn't make him "not a Christian," and it doesn't make him "less Christian" or "less saved" than any other Christian. Really, it's okay.
Grace and peace to you.
They are claiming that and so are you if you believe Rev. 20:1-6 is fulfilled already. I know they do because they say the thousand years reign on earth started already.
The Amil errors are not hard to figure out unless someone is also under this strong delusion.
Some of them may be, and if so, that makes them "bad Amils," as I said. <chuckles>
I have said over and over and over again that Revelation 20:1-6 is not completely fulfilled yet, but will be. As of now, it is still being brought to completion.
Well, yes, the thousand-year millennial reign of Christ has started already, but it is not on earth; He is ruling now from heaven, seated at the right hand of God. Even while Jesus was here on earth a little over two thousand years ago, He said He was King then, but that His kingdom was not of this world. Do you think that at some point after that He ceased to be King? Surely not... When he returns, His millennial reign will have ended and His eternal reign will have then begun. As a Christian, Stewardofthemystery, who is your King? Who, right now, is your King? I hope your answer is, "Jesus"... <smile>
But you, Stewardoftheministry ~ and apparently some of the supposed "Amils" you are talking to ~ are mistaken about Amillennialism in the first place, which I have been very clear about. Goodness gracious.
Grace and peace to you, SOTM.
Please do not let him talk on behalf of fellow Amils. He misrepresents every time.
Other Amils agree with this. Do not let him say otherwise. That is what Amil is!
Well there you go, by your own admission you believe the first resurrection is past and the thousand years has already begun, as is defined in Rev. 20:1-6.
Not completely past ~ collectively speaking, meaning all of God's elect ~ but past for many individuals... those who are of Israel, God's elect, and have been born again of the Spirit and raised in Christ and thus believed in Christ. This distinction has to be made.
Again, in the collective sense, meaning all of God's people, His elect, all of His Israel, no, the first resurrection is not fully past. But in the individual sense, meaning those who are of God's Israel and have been born again of the Spirit and raised in Christ, yes, they have experienced the first resurrection and are sharing in it. This distinction has to be made.
A third time, but in a little more detail... If you, Stewardofthemystery, are a Christian, if you have been born again of the Spirit and raised in Christ, then for you, individually, the first resurrection is past occurrence and a present reality. Collectively speaking, you are "share(ing) in the first resurrection," and you are "blessed," just as Revelation 20:4-6 says. And you are looking forward with certainty to the day when Christ Jesus returns ~ so, in terms of Revelation 20, after verse 6, and just prior to verse 11 ~ you will experience the second resurrection (which for you will be to eternal life rather than to judgment). Your body will be raised physically and your spirit will be reunited with your body, and (after the Judgment) you will enter fully into eternal life. Unless Christ returns before you physically die, in which case you will not have experienced the second resurrection, because you did not physically die before Jesus's return, but of course you will experience the same benefits of all those other members of God's elect, thus entering into eternal life with Christ in the new Heaven and new Earth. Yes, the thousand years," God's millennium, has already begun... about two thousand years ago.
Now, if we still disagree, then we still disagree. And that's okay. Really, it's okay.
Grace and peace to you.
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
Context
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
…4We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death,we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. 6We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.…
Berean Standard Bible · Download
Cross References
2 Corinthians 4:10
We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.
Philippians 3:10
I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to Him in His death,
Colossians 2:12
And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Colossians 3:1
Therefore, since you have been raised with Christ, strive for the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
…4We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death,we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. 6We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.…
Berean Standard Bible · Download
Cross References
2 Corinthians 4:10
We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.
Philippians 3:10
I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to Him in His death,
Colossians 2:12
And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Colossians 3:1
Therefore, since you have been raised with Christ, strive for the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.
You think that way because you have been deceived into thinking that the bodily first resurrection of the dead in Christ mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6 that happens in an instant, is talking about being born again of the Holy Spirit to individuals over the past 2,000 years or so.
But the first resurrection of the dead in Christ is fulfilled first before the thousand year reign of Christ on earth with his saints even begins.
Paul knew Jesus was bodily resurrected already and Paul knew what it meant to be born again, but YET Paul did not consider the first resurrection to be past already. In fact Paul warned about this false doctrine.
2 Timothy 2:16-18
King James Version
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Though, I tend to think you are a bit more reasonable than some of these other Amils around here are, you are still not reasonable enough.
Let's get on the same page here. I'm meaning saints that have been martyred. That's what verse 4 is pertaining to. Initially, John sees the souls of them, thus they are in a disembodied state. Obviously, their soul was never dead at anytime whatsoever, right? We need to keep that in mind since it is relevant for my point.
Then we see this pertaining to these martyrs---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Where we are then told in verse 5 that it is meaning this---This is the first resurrection.
Except Amil has these martyrs in the same state they were in prior to living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. Amil has them still in a disembodied state even after they begin living and reigning with Christ a thousand years.
After they are martyred they are in a disembodied state, obviously. Yet, once they begin to live and start reigning with Christ a thousand years it is not reasonable that they would still be in a disembodied state. The first resurrection accomplished zero in their case since the first resurrection can't even bring them out of a disembodied state into that of a bodily state because Amil still has these martyrs in a disembodied state even after they begin living and reigning with Christ.
Therefore, my point has to do with these martyrs once they begin living and reigning with Christ, that common sense seems to say they should be in a bodily state at this point, except Amil still has them in the same condition throughout the entire thousand years they were in once they were martyred, a disembodied state. My point has nothing to do with before they were martyred. My point has to do with after they are martyred.
Why does Amil still have them in a disembodied state when they are living and reigning with Christ a thousand years? Where is the logic in that? Keeping in mind their souls were never dead to begin with. So it's not like they needed their souls to come back to life or something. But they sure needed their bodies to come back to life since it will be impossible to live throughout eternity in a disembodied state, don't you think?
Where does verse 4 mention martyrs? Nowhere!
You add it unto the sacred text, as you do with the thousand years everywhere in the Book is not stated.
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ewq1938
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Repetition of the word means it is indeed used twice. It is known as the infinitive absolute verb pairing.
LOL!
That may or may not be possible. Depending on... reasonableness... <chuckles> Or maybe intransigence and/or humility... <smile>
Okay, so I'm going to forgo the rest of your post, at least for now. At least for now, let's stop here and talk just about this. For now.
Why do you think that, David? Maybe the more pointed question is... Well, verse four specifically states, "those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands." As a Christian, do you not see yourself in that? Or at least in the second half of that... those who "had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands"... Would you not include yourself in that? Of course, you are not in any kind of disembodied state, because you have not yet died, right? But you (probably) will before Jesus comes back...
Now, depending on your answer here, it may render the rest of your post moot, even from your own point of view. Not to say that anything you have said is unimportant, or... Well, not to dismiss it or deride it in any way ~ I'm not doing that.
But yeah... As a Christian, do you not see yourself as included in verse 4? And... why? Or, why not? <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
Deborah_
Well-Known Member
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