The difference between The Resurrection and the first resurrection.

[Spiritual Israelite]

We were not talking about revelation 6
We were discussing revelation 20.

You said the resurected saints in revelation 20 were dead when the verse said they live.

You said they were in the heaven when the verse said they are on earth.

LOL. We were talking about both. Are you trying to get out of telling me where the souls John saw in Revelation 6:9-11 are located? Your false doctrine of soul sleep has led you to believe all kinds of things that are false.

 

[tailgator]

More twisting of Scripture. He saw the souls in heaven and the saints on earth surrounded at the end before the second coming and the general resurrection.

John is talking about the resurected saints. The ones who had been beheaded and then resurected and live .They are living on the earth when Gog surrounds them.

This is what God said he would do many thousands of years ago.

 

[tailgator]

LOL. We were talking about both. Are you trying to get out of telling me where the souls John saw in Revelation 6:9-11 are located? Your false doctrine of soul sleep has led you to believe all kinds of things that are false.

No,I had only been talking about revelation 20.
Go back and look at my posts The were all about revelation 20.

The only one post I made about revelation 6 is those souls are under .Not above.


Like able blood crying out from the ground.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Per Revelation 19 though, you do agree they are up in the sky first per that account, right? Obviously, the rapture precedes Christ and His army confronting the beast and it's armies. Not meaning a Pretrib rapture, though. Meaning a post trib rapture, that that rapture occurs first, thus no saints remaining on the planet at this point because the following happens moments earlier---

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

Thus no saints remaining on the earth at this point. But not meaning they then ascend into heaven though, since the clouds and air meant here are pertaining to our atmosphere not heaven. After they meet Christ in the air they continue descending to the earth in order to fulfill Revelation 19:19-21, not ascend to heaven instead.

Why this matters, Amils insist, maybe not all Amils do, that Revelation 19:19-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 are involving the same events. But if that is true, why does Revelation 19 have the saints in the sky first because of the rapture, thus no saints remaining on the planet in order to be surrounded by anyone, can't surround them on the earth if they are up in the sky, right?

But that Revelation 20:7-10 has no saints up in the sky, they are still on the earth and are being surrounded on the earth, thus the exact opposite of what Revelation 19 records when we factor in that the rapture has to precede Christ and His armies confronting the beast and it's armies below.

Yet, Amils would have us believe that Revelation 19:19-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 are involving the same events, the same time period. That way they can deny that the beast and false prophet are already in the LOF a thousand years earlier than when Revelation 20:7-10 is meaning. What you won't see mentioned anywhere in verses 7-9 is the beast and false prophet. And for good reason, they are not involving what Revelation 20:7-10 is involving. They are already in the LOF and have been there for a thousand years when verse 7-9 is meaning.

Congratulations on proving that you don't understand Amil once again. For maybe the thousandth time. All you premils are able to do is misrepresent Amil. You can't argue against something you don't even understand. The souls of the dead in Christ come with Jesus when He comes and then the rapture occurs. Not all passages about the second coming contain all of the details about it. Why is that a hard concept for you to understand in relation to Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 when you are able to understand that concept enough to know that 1 Thess 4:14-17, Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are all the same event despite the fact that they don't each have all of the same details?

 

[WPM]

Amils insist, maybe not all Amils do, that Revelation 19:19-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 are involving the same events. But if that is true, why does Revelation 19 have the saints in the sky first because of the rapture, thus no saints remaining on the planet in order to be surrounded by anyone, can't surround them on the earth if they are up in the sky, right?

But that Revelation 20:7-10 has no saints up in the sky, they are still on the earth and are being surrounded on the earth, thus the exact opposite of what Revelation 19 records when we factor in that the rapture has to precede Christ and His armies confronting the beast and it's armies below.

Yet, Amils would have us believe that Revelation 19:19-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 are involving the same events, the same time period. That way they can deny that the beast and false prophet are already in the LOF when Revelation 20:7-10 is meaning.

This is utter nonsense!

I used to believe you were completely ignorant and unlearned about Amil and then I realized that you major in deceiving people. Your MO is to twist what Amils believe, despite being rebuked numerous times about it. You have zero credibility amongst Amils. They do not respect deceivers. The reason you constantly go there is that you are habitually defeated in every single thread you engage in with your false teaching and your impotent arguments. To admit what we really believe would force you to concede you are wrong, something you do not do. You cannot admit that you are pushing false teaching. Self-deception is the worst deception.

It is pointless trying to correct your deception because it is willful and deliberate.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No,I had only been talking about revelation 20.
Go back and look at my posts The were all about revelation 20.

The only one post I made about revelation 6 is those souls are under .Not above.

I'm trying to get you to address Revelation 6 because you obviously interpret Revelation 20 the way you do because of your belief in soul sleep. If soul sleep was true, then how do you explain Revelation 6:9-11?

When you say the souls are under (it says under the altar), what does the mean? They can't be under the altar in heaven? Where else could they be?

 

[WPM]

Congratulations on proving that you don't understand Amil once again. For maybe the thousandth time. All you premils are able to do is misrepresent Amil. You can't argue against something you don't even understand. The souls of the dead in Christ come with Jesus when He comes and then the rapture occurs. Not all passages about the second coming contain all of the details about it. Why is that a hard concept for you to understand in relation to Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 when you are able to understand that concept enough to know that 1 Thess 4:14-17, Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are all the same event despite the fact that they don't each have all of the same details?

Bro, it is not ignorance, it is deliberate deception.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is utter nonsense!

I used to believe you were completely ignorant and unlearned about Amil and then I realized that you major in deceiving people. Your MO is to twist what Amils believe, despite being rebuked numerous times about it. You have zero credibility amongst Amils. They do not respect deceivers. The reason you constantly go there is that you are habitually defeated in every single thread you engage in with your false teaching and your impotent arguments. To admit what we really believe would force you to concede you are wrong, something you do not do. You cannot admit that you are pushing false teaching. Self-deception is the worst deception.

Our view is being misrepresented by premils over and over again. Their dishonesty is disgusting. Surely, they know what we believe by now, but they misrepresent it, anyway. It shows they have no confidence in their own view when they have to constantly resort to misrepresenting ours.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Bro, it is not ignorance, it is deliberate deception.

You know how I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and tend to assume they are just ignorant instead of being purposely deceptive (unless it's obvious), but he has seen our posts for many years now. How can he not understand amil by now? You are most likely right that it's deliberate. It's just hard to believe that Christians will resort to being so deceptive like this just to keep their pet doctrine afloat.

 

[tailgator]

I'm trying to get you to address revelation 6 because you obviously interpret Revelation 20 the way you do because of your belief in soul sleep. If soul sleep was true, then how do you explain Revelation 6:9-11?

God told them to rest.
Normally people sleep to get rest don't they?

Revelation 6
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled



When God tells them to rest,you believe they get up and go to work?

I believe they rest.

 

[WPM]

You know how I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and tend to assume they are just ignorant instead of being purposely deceptive (unless it's obvious), but he has seen our posts for many years now. How can he not understand amil by now? You are most likely right that it's deliberate. It's just hard to believe that Christians will resort to being so deceptive like this just to keep their pet doctrine afloat.

When you are defeated in every argument, and refuse to change, this is all you have left.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God told them to rest.
Normally people sleep to get rest don't they?

Revelation 6
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled



When God tells them to rest,you believe they get up and go to work?

I believe they rest.

That's figurative speech for telling them to wait patiently for Him to avenge their blood. He's not telling them to literally rest as if they are there in heaven just sleeping all the time. LOL. Unbelievable. How do I get someone who is carnal like you to understand spiritual things? It probably can't be done at this point I suppose. You're just not ready for the solid food of God's word.

 

[WPM]

God told them to rest.
Normally people sleep to get rest don't they?

Revelation 6
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled



When God tells them to rest,you believe they get up and go to work?

I believe they rest.

It is the Word of God that destroys your error. It forbids your false claims.

Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”

The passage continues, “Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:19-31).

The just are clearly “comforted” here.

The lost are clearly “tormented” here.

But it talking about the man in hell sending someone to his brothers who were still physically alive and warning them about the flames. This can't be after the coming of Christ.

Jesus said to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Acts 7:59-60 records, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Stephen’s spirit was separating from his body and went to be with God. However, his body was going to the grave.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather ‘to be absent’ from the body, and ‘to be present’ with the Lord."

‘ekdeemeesai’ – ‘be absent’

‘endeemeesai’ – ‘be present’

Paul said in Philippians 1:21-24 says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:10 tells us that Christ “died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

The writer to the Hebrews censures such a foolish earthly notion of focusing upon the physical Jerusalem below, in Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, saying, “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest …but ye are come unto mount sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Revelation

Revelation 14:13 agrees: “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

In Revelation 4:4, 10, 5:8, 14, 11:6, 19:4, we see 24 Elders around the throne in heaven. Who are they? Also, in Revelation 7 we see several references to 144,000 in heaven that have been redeemed from off the earth. Who are they?

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.”

And continues, “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, “I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is unquestionably speaking (1) of heaven and also (2) of a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal.

The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) says, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here we clearly have a heavenly scene, and a heavenly scene in this present period of time. It reveals the risen saints in glory awaiting the consummation of all things.

Revelation 15:1-3 says, “I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, andover his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the lamb, saying, great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.”

Again, this relates to the intra-Advent period. Also, there is no doubt that this scene is in heaven and that “victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name” evidently meant martyrdom for those in view. However, absent from the body for the believer assuredly means present with the Lord in His heavenly abode.

Revelation 7:9-14 adds further light on the matter, saying, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb…one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? And I said unto him, sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

The souls are therefore identified here as (1) the redeemed and are clearly located (2) in heaven.

Verse 15 continues, “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.”

 

[Ritajanice]

@tailgator .

Did anyone ascend to heaven with Jesus?

 

[tailgator]

That's figurative speech for telling them to wait patiently for Him to avenge their blood. He's not telling them to literally rest as if they are there in heaven just sleeping all the time. LOL. Unbelievable.

So you believe they don't rest after they die.
Hmmm

 

[tailgator]

@tailgator .

Did anyone ascend to heaven with Jesus?

I don't recall the apostles saying anyone did
They saw Jesus ascend .

 

[tailgator]

It is the Word of God that destroys your error. It forbids your false claims.

Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”

The passage continues, “Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:19-31).

The just are clearly “comforted” here.

The lost are clearly “tormented” here.

But it talking about the man in hell sending someone to his brothers who were still physically alive and warning them about the flames. This can't be after the coming of Christ.

Jesus said to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Acts 7:59-60 records, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Stephen’s spirit was separating from his body and went to be with God. However, his body was going to the grave.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather ‘to be absent’ from the body, and ‘to be present’ with the Lord."

‘ekdeemeesai’ – ‘be absent’

‘endeemeesai’ – ‘be present’

Paul said in Philippians 1:21-24 says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:10 tells us that Christ “died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

The writer to the Hebrews censures such a foolish earthly notion of focusing upon the physical Jerusalem below, in Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, saying, “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest …but ye are come unto mount sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Revelation

Revelation 14:13 agrees: “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

In Revelation 4:4, 10, 5:8, 14, 11:6, 19:4, we see 24 Elders around the throne in heaven. Who are they? Also, in Revelation 7 we see several references to 144,000 in heaven that have been redeemed from off the earth. Who are they?

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.”

And continues, “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, “I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is unquestionably speaking (1) of heaven and also (2) of a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal.

The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) says, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here we clearly have a heavenly scene, and a heavenly scene in this present period of time. It reveals the risen saints in glory awaiting the consummation of all things.

No ,the souls that are resurected from the dead in revelation 20 are upon earth when they are surrounded by Gog .
Here again is the text .

Try to keep it in context .

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[WPM]

No ,the souls that are resurected from the dead in revelation 20 are upon earth when they are surrounded by Gog .
Here again is the text again.

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You are running scared. Address the rest.

 

[Ritajanice]

What did Jesus say to the robber on the cross?
Jesus said in Luke 23:43 (NIV), "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." The central belief here is that Jesus was affirming that the thief on the cross would be with Him that day in heaven.

 

[tailgator]

You are running scared. Address the rest.

We are discussing revelation 20
That is what I've been addressing.

The resurection of Israel.
The first resurection