Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
At what point exactly do you believe it becomes true that the second death has no power over someone? Whatever your answer to that question is, it should be taken into account when interpreting Revelation 20:6.
The difference between The Resurrection and the first resurrection.
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
No matter if one is pretrib rapture or postrib rapture, the "resurrections" are the same.
1st= the redeemed
2nd= into the Lof.
Jesus is the firstfruits OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
Main harvest follows firstfruits EVERY TIME.
Jesus resurrected.
All of paradise went to heaven resurrected.
Then those in christ. ONLY the dead in christ resurrected pretrib.
Then another resurrection DURING THE TRIB.
REV 20 is REFERRING BACK TO all 3 "first resurrections"
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Are we not in the Grave of spiritual death UNTIL He resurrects us by His LIFE?
JESUS says to us: "Do not marvel I say to you that you MUST be Born-Again"
Do we not FIRST hear the Voice of God Calling us to Christ BEFORE we are SAVED?
JESUS says "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live."
the Holy Spirit says:
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
are we not living in "TODAY" where His Voice is still Calling out to the dead?
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
At the sound of the last trump when mortals have become immortal.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Yes, yes, yes,@David in NJ ....to your last post.
Praise God he is surly ministering to me through you, in the Mighty Name Of Jesus!!
Starting to bring what you say in the Spirit to my understanding...
This is my opinion/ belief..
Praise God he is surly ministering to me through you, in the Mighty Name Of Jesus!!
Starting to bring what you say in the Spirit to my understanding...
This is my opinion/ belief..
Allow me to at least explain then what I meant by all of that.
And what did I mean by that in context? I meant if we were all Amils it would mean John neglected to mention the most important resurrection event in Revelation 20, the bodily resurrection of saints. Because none of us would believe the first resurrection is pertaining to that if everyone of us were Amils.
These in Revelation 20:4 are literally dead at some point, and that when they live and reign with Christ a thousand years, Amils don't have them doing that in a bodily state, they have them doing that in disembodied state. Which adds even more bizarre nonsense when we have to factor in what verse 6 also records--- but they shall be priests of God and of Christ.
Now we have to apply that to those living and reigning with Christ in a disembodied state. Except there is not one Scripture that supports that, that one shall be priests of God and of Christ while in a disembodied state.
No wonder I said thank God that we are not all Amils. Thank God John wasn't an Amil, otherwise John would be submitting nonsense in Revelation 20. He would be talking about every resurrection event except for the bodily resurrection of saints. He would be applying--but they shall be priests of God and of Christ--to that of someone in a disembodied state rather than someone in a bodily state. So on and so on.
John would be ignoring, if he was an Amil, what Revelation 5:10 plainy says---And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Now one has to explain how living and reigning as kings and priests in a disembodied state equals this---and we shall reign on the earth?
Per Amil, these martyrs in verse 4 are disconnetcted from satan's little season altogether since satan's little season couldn't possibly affect them one way or the other if they are not even on the earth at the time but are in heaven in a disembodied state instead.
Not to mention, the fact the thousand years has a beginning and an end, how does it make sense that the thousand years end on earth but in heaven the thousand years continue, meaning for the disembodied martyrs? That doesn't sync. IOW, why would the thousand years begin at the same time, both on earth and in heaven, but would not end at the same time, both on the earth and in heaven? This meaning if Amil is true.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
ABSOLUTELY
For us who are HIM, what GREAT ASSURANCE when HE says to you and i:
No one is able to pluck @Ritajanice and @David in NJ from My Hand
AND
No one is able to pluck @Ritajanice and @David in NJ from My FATHER's Hand
I and My FATHER are ONE
HalleluYAH
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Do you see no distinction between John 5:24-25 and John 5:28-29? Do you think Jesus just repeated in John 5:28-29 what He had already just said in John 5:24-25?
In John 5:24-25, Jesus was talking about what you're talking about here. Being made spiritually alive after previously beeing dead in trespasses and sins. That's why He said there "the hour is coming, AND NOW IS...". The "and now is" part shows that He was talking about a current reality and "the hour is coming" part shows He was talking about an ongoing reality.
In contrast to that, in John 5:28-29 he only says "the hour is coming". He does not say "the hour is coming, and now is". So, He was only talking about a future event there.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Also, notice that it talks about "they that have done evil" being resurrected unto "damnation". That is clearly not talking about some kind of spiritual resurrection for those who will be damned, right? We know from other scripture that unbelievers will be bodily resurrected (Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15), so why wouldn't Jesus have talked about that as well?
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Do you not believe that this is talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead? If you do, then is there any reason to think that the ones Jesus said will be resurrected unto "damnation" are any different than the ones Daniel 12:2 says will be resurrected unto "shame and everlasting contempt"? I don't believe so. So, I see no reason to think that Jesus was not talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead in John 5:28-29.
I agree with this. We must experience spiritual resurrection before we experience physical resurrection. Jesus describes both in John 5:24-29. Do you agree?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Wrong answer! Do you think that the second death has power over you right now? If so, then do you not believe you belong to Christ? How can the second death have power over those who belong to Christ who promises eternal life to those who believe in Him?
How about the souls of the dead in Christ that John saw? Does the second death have power over them? No way! They are in heaven and are already guaranteed to inherit the kingdom of God and not be cast into the lake of fire (the second death - Rev 20:14), so the second death certainly has no power over them now. Your answer would suggest that you believe the second death still has power over someone who belongs to Christ all the way up until their bodies are changed at the last trumpet. No, it does not!
That is called hypocrisy or duplicity!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
A - "Unless a man is Born-Again he CANNOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven"
B - "the hour is coming and now is where the dead will hear My Voice and Live"
C - "You he made ALIVE who were DEAD in tresspasses and sins"
D - "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying,
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
E - But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first. = Revelation 20:4-6 @WPM Corraborative Evidence
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.
G - But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming
H - And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection. = @WPM corraborative Evidence
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
AMEN
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When it comes to the meaning of “the second death” most evangelicals are in solid agreement that this is talking about eternal damnation. But what many Premillennialists do not consider is that if believers have not yet had their part in the first resurrection, and if, as Scripture teaches, it is the actual means by which we overcome the second death, and it is still future, then the second death still has power over believers in this life. Spiritual Israelite alluded to this above. They have therefore not already experienced eternal life in which they shall never die, and overcome eternal death, as Jesus and the New Testament writers continually promised us. It negates numerous scriptural passages. This is what Premillennialism produces.
There is another major contradiction in Premillennialism that many fail to consider, and that is, if the first resurrection is the actual means by which we overcome the second death, and if it is yet future, and it relates to the physical resurrection of the dead in Christ, this means that the living in Christ do not partake in the only means by which we conquer the second death at the second coming. After all, they do not die, they are therefore not resurrected. They are changed in a moment and caught up to be with Jesus in the air.
Only the Amillennialist explanation makes sense, fits in with numerous other Scripture, and correlates with the consistent divine record. Only it embraces all the elect. That is us having our part in Christ’s first resurrection. When we get saved, all the redeemed of all times (without exception) partake in this glorious resurrection. This therefore gives them a current victory (as repeatedly taught in Scripture) over eternal punishment.
Basically, this is not simply a future hope, it is a present reality for the redeemed.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I know what you meant. You think I don't know what you believe by now?
That is more important than Christ's resurrection? No. Without Christ's resurrection, the resurrection of the dead in Christ would not be possible.
Okay...?
How is that "bizarre nonsense" when it says we are priests of God and of Christ NOW? What I would consider bizarre nonsense is not acknowledging that we are priests of God and of Christ NOW and that continues to be the case when someone physically dies.
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Do you deny that we are priests of God and of Christ NOW even though scripture says we are?
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
There is no scripture that says otherwise, either. The fact of the matter is that there is very little scripture that talks about what it is like for the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven in detail, so for you to say that one cannot be a priest of God and of Christ in a disembodied state is not based on scripture. What is clear in scripture is that we are priests of God and of Christ NOW. So, why would that change just because our bodies die? If you can't answer that, then I have no reason to take your claim seriously.
It's a wonder to me because nothing you're saying would indicate that we should not all be Amils.
LOL. All I see is baseless nonsense from you here. Do you have anything of substance to offer or only these baseless claims you're making and nothing more?
Hello? He saw the souls of physically dead people. That means they were in a disembodied state. You apparently have trouble believing that someone can be alive in a disembodied state and I think that's the real issue here.
You don't seem to acknowledge that we are priest of God and of Christ right now even though scripture explicitly says that we are. That's a another major problem with your way of thinking.
You are ignoring, as a Premil, that we are kings and priests NOW. It does not say that w ecan't be kings and priests in heaven as well. This is a very weak argument you're making here, especially when it's clear that you can't even recognize that it says we have been MADE "unto our God kings and priests" which means we are kings and priests NOW. Your hyper-futurist way of thinking makes it so that you have no understanding of any current realities either in heaven or on earth.
Why would dead people be affected by Satan's little season? Your arguments make no sense.
You truly have no idea of what you're talking about. What do you think, that the souls of the dead in Christ cease to exist when the thousand years ends? What are you even saying here? Do you think that Jesus stops reigning when the thousand years ends? Does scripture say that He will reign forever? What ends when the thousand years ends is Satan's binding. Jesus never stops reigning. He just stops restraining Satan for a little season at that point.
Nothing you're saying syncs.
This is troubling that you seem to think that Christ's reign ends when the thousand years ends. If that's what you believe, you better rethink that. What ends when the thousand years ends is the binding of Satan, not the reign of Christ.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why are you not addressing anything I said about John 5:24-25 and John 5:28-29? I was talking about the contrast being John 5:24-25 and John 5:28-29 and you didn't specifically address that at all. Why? Do you deny that John 5:28-29 is referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead or not? Yes or no? Do you see the difference between John 5:24-25 (hour is coming, and now is, and only applies to believers) and John 5:28-29 (hour is coming, and not now is, and applies to both believers and unbelievers)?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
GREAT Truth to start with
Well THEN, i am not a pre-millinielist or whatever that is
TRUE and Not TRUE
TRUTH
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.
John 10:28-30Jesus
Not true
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TRUTH
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.
John 10:28-30Jesus
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Concerning the Resurrection of the Dead for BOTH Here/Now/Today and for His Second Coming which HE brings Bodily Resurrection: Everything was addressed in Post 233 and there does not exist any opposing scriptures to those that were quoted.
Dead Once LIVE TWICE
Live once DEAD Twice
SHALOM
I agree. Revelation 20:6 tells us: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
This resurrection has to be spiritual in Christ. It is in the present tense, thus supporting the Amil interpretation.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It's really difficult to get premils to acknowledge the obvious, which is that it's not being bodily resurrected from the dead that makes it so that the second death has no power over us. I believe Revelation 20:6 indicates that one MUST have part in the first resurrection in order for the second death to not have power over him or her. As you indicated, only Amil can make sense of that because we believe that literally all believers have part in the first resurrection while premils have only the dead in Christ having part in the first resurrection. So, in that view, those who are alive and remain until the coming of Christ are out of luck because they do not have part in the first resurrection. So, how do they avoid the second death without having part in the first resurrection? It doesn't say "blessed and holy are those who are still alive until the second coming of Christ, on such the second death hath no power". No, it only says "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power".
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