- Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
- Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
- Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
- Do you believe Satan literally has 7 heads and 7 necks?
- Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
- Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
- Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
- Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
- Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
- Does imprisonment mean immobility?
- Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
- Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
- Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
- Can a prisoner deceive others in prison?
- Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?
The difference between The Resurrection and the first resurrection.
- Thread starter Stewardofthemystery
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i AGREED with you in my Post #74 = ABSOLUTELY TRUE = 100% TRUTH
Did you say to @Davidpt, i made a mistake when i quoted your words ( SEE your Post #72 )
Easy to do, i've done it before = It pleases the Lord Jesus Christ
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
We must stay focused on our obedience to please God and believe exactly what HE wants us to know.
Whether that is Literal, Symbolic or BOTH
Our responsibility is to conform our minds to the Mind of Christ so that we are not speaking against His words like the pre-tribbers do.
Pre-tribbers do not conform to the Scriptures = let us not duplicate their error.
We are here make sure that we get the 1,000 Years in chapter 20 as either literal or symbolic according to our FATHER's Word.
i believe all of chapter 20 is literal as it opens up with literal specific designations:
Chapter 20:1-3 opens with all literal
Literal - an angel coming DOWN from Heaven - Question why is the angel coming down from Heaven?
Literal - the Devil who is Satan as opposed to the 'Dragon' = Literal separates from the symbolic
Literal - bound him for 1,000 years
Literal - bottomless pit = that which is in the spiritual realm is still LITERAL
Literal - shut him up and sealed him = when you seal a jar the contents cannot get out = nothing gets out
Literal - the nations
Literal - deception
Literal - 1,000 years
Literal - expiration date = when the 1,000 years ended
Literal - Satan is released from the bottomless pit
Ending here as i am tired and need sleep - see you tomorrow
SHALOM
I am seeing a pattern here: you cannot address direct questions. You skipped around various questions because they expose your hyper-literal approach.
TribulationSigns
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I will answer first few questions if anyone wants to know.
Satan is NOT a created supernatural being. He is a spirit. A spirit of disobedience of man, started with Eve. The devils, demons, minions, etc are simply men (messengers) with the spirit of antichrist.
Dragon is Satan. Satan works (speaks) through ungenerated men, as they are the ones with the spirit of disobedience.
Of course not. The old serpent is not talking about a physical snake, rather it means Satan or his ministers or messengers. Do you think Christ is comforting Christians so that they do not worry about literal snakes in the grass? Is that what can "hurt" God's people? No, this is not what Christians will be anxious over:
Matthew 23:33
- "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"
- "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."
That is the power to have no fear of Satan and his minions. Not physical serpents. Laying hands on the sick and healing them is not a parlor trick, it is the healing power of the gospel that saves the sick soul. What Scripture means depends upon God's word, not upon man's vivid imagination.
The number seven in Scripture signifies totality or completeness of whatever is in view. The seven heads are seven mountains (Revelation 17:9) which are symbolic of kingdoms. Seven equals the totality of authority (heads) of this dragon and of his rule throughout time. It simply means a totality of the dragon's (Satan's) rule. That is why it says (revelation 17:10) that five of the heads of this beast had already fallen at the time of the writing of Revelation. Those rules of Satan were over because Christ has deal him a fatal head wound. In other words, his power has been restrained. And it said, one is, and one is yet to come, and there was a final 8th (which was part of the seven). iFor example, it's part of 'this totality,' and he would rule a short time near the end of the world when Satan is loosed. The seven illustrates the totality of the time of rule of this beast. God uses this number in this way to show us certain Spiritual truths. It's not the perfection of Satan, but illustrates the totality of his authority (heads) and rule. He is the prince of the power of the air. When the seventh king falls, that will be the end of him, the finish of the totality of his rule and authority. The seven heads are not talking about seven different secular based kingdoms in history.
The key is not a literal key. It represents or signifies authority and ability, etc.
The chain is not a literal chain. The chain represents or signifies restraint. Satan is a spirit being. He must be restrained spiritually by God HImself. Rather than literal, this language is representative spiritual language to illustrate binding, and securing, and the key illustrates Christ has the power and authority to keep Satan bound, or to unlock and set loose. And notice that Christ gave the key to the church (Matthew 16:19) that it is up to Church to keep Satan bound by staying faithful to God's Word and her great commision, or help set loose Satan if church disobedience or fell into apostasy. That is why the unfaithful church (a falling star) fell to loosen Satan out of bottomless pit, Revelation 9:1-2 to be used by God as a judgment against her for her unfaithfulness.
Rather the bottomless pit represents the dominion Christ has over Satan. It is merely a spiritual picture of the victory Christ has secured since before the foundation of the world FOR HIS PEOPLE.
Mark 3:27
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
The strong man is Satan, and Christ bound him through His perfect sacrifice for our sins, so that the gospel could go forth to spoil Satan's kingdom. In Revelation, we see another picture of this same principle.
Revelation 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
The bottomless pit represents the dominion Christ has over Satan and his kingdom. The purpose of thousand years is for Christ to BUILD HIS CHURCH, saving his people with Satan restrained. This is why Christ has the key, or the control of Satan, to spoil his kingdom. He does not have a literal key, nor is Satan held in literal chains, nor is he resting in a literal bottomless pit. These are spiritual pictures provided to believers to let us know Chirst holds the victory over Satan.
Ephesians 4:8
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Christ secured the victory for us and is now withholding Satan so the Kingdom of Christ can be built. UNTIL Christ finished with his building of the church through His Two Witnesses' testimony of salvation:
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
You're right it needs to be straightened out according to exactly what Jesus meant, and I don't believe that what you have above is has it straightened out. Here's why:
"For this reason Christ died [apothnesko] and rose again from the dead bodily [anistemi] * and lived again in the body [anazao] **, so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and those who are alive in the body [zao]." (Romans 14:9).
In every verse where the word appears in the New Testament, the word záō (alive | living) is referring either:
(a) to the living God, the living Christ, and living water; or
(b) to humans who are alive in the body.
The verse is never talking about anyone who has died | fallen asleep | is not alive and living (i.e in the body), and the word is closely related to the word zōḗ.
If you don't believe me, I have quoted all the New Testament verses using the word zao in this list here:
You would need to prove that Jesus was not talking about being alive in the body but about spiritual life in Christ in John 11:26 by finding a verse in the New Testament where zao is not referring to being alive in the body.
The context of John 11:23-26 is the death of the body, the resurrection of the body, and being alive in the body.
Jesus is saying "Whoever is alive in the body [zao] and believes in Me shall never experience the death of the body." So how can you say He is talking about those who have been born of the Spirit at a time before the resurrection of the body which will only take place when Christ returns?
John 3:1-18
The context of John 3:1-18 is being born of the Spirit and the life given to us in Christ - eternal life is always and only in Christ (1 John 5:11).
It's not the same context as the conversation between Jesus and Martha whose brother had just died.
Most Christians have been taught this interpretation of John 11:26 expressed by yourself in your post (which is taught only as a result of ignorance of what the word zao means), and my guess is that this is probably why you see it this way - because you've never looked at the meaning of the word "lives" in John 11:26 in the context of what the passage is about and in the context of what Jesus said about the resurrection.
Ephesians 2:4-6 is about the fact that we have been quickened with Christ, whose dead body was quickened. There is no such thing as "the quickening of the human spirit" in the New Testament. It's always the quickening of the body. If you don't believe me, I've listed the passages talking about the quickening of the dead here.
To link Ephesians 2:4-6 to "the quickening of the human spirit" can only be done by ignoring the meaning of the word zōopoiéō wherever else it is used in the New Testament.
"If Christ's Spirit is in you,
(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.
(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).
"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins,
(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);
(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō)
and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).
Christ's Spirit did not die. His body died. His Spirit was not quickened by the Spirit. His dead body was quickened by the Spirit.
"Fool ! That which you sow is not quickened [zoopoieo], except it die." (1 Corinthians 15:36)
Quickening always applies to the quickening of the body in the New Testament. Ephesians 2:4-6 is telling us about the quickening of our dead bodies and the resurrection of our dead bodies that we will experience with and because of Christ's quickening and resurrection.
"Christ is risen [egeiro] from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection [anastasis] of the dead --
-- for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be quickened [zoopoieo: made alive]." (1 Corinthians 15:20-22).
The quickening always refers to the quickening of the body.
You are conflating concepts regarding life in the body [zao], death of the body [apothnesko / nekros], quickening of the body [ zōopoiéō], and the resurrection of the body [anístēmi; egeírō; égersis and anastasis] (the things Jesus was talking to Martha about in John 11:24-26) with being born again and having eternal spiritual life (zoe) in Christ.
Jesus is not talking to Martha about the birth of the Spirit and spiritual life in Christ through birth by the Spirit in that passage, nor about the quickening of the body. He was not giving Martha all those details, probably because all those other details you are conflating what Jesus said with, would have gone way above her head - as does John 11:24-26 for all Amillennialists (and others) today.
* gennáō: Conceived, and born - whether of a human father or of the Spirit, the same word is used. We were gennao of the flesh and needed to be gennao from the first of the Spirit.
* zao | anazao: In each and every verse the word is used, it's referring either the living God, or to human beings who are alive in the body.
* Death of the body / the dead.
* zōopoiéō (quicken, to make alive): In each and every verse it's mentioned, it's talking about the quickening of the body (not of a 'dead' human spirit that had never been born).
* anístēmi; egeírō; égersis and anastasis (the resurrection of the body): In each and every verse where they are speaking about rising from death, they are speaking about the resurrection of the body from the dead (never of a "spiritual resurrection").
In the New Testament,
BEING BORN ANEW OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD
PLACES AN INDIVIDUAL IN CHRIST
CAUSING THE INDIVIDUAL'S DEAD | DYING BODY
TO BE QUICKENED
WHICH WILL PRODUCE
THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY FROM DEATH
(WITH CHRIST'S RESURRECTION), WHEN HE RETURNS,
AND THE REGENERATION OF ALL THINGS.
THIS IS EVERLASTING LIFE
AND THIS IS THE NEW TESTAMENT'S TEACHING
ALL THANKS TO CHRIST TAKING ON A HUMAN BODY,
AND TAKING OUR SIN UPON HIMSELF,
BEARING THE SIN IN HIS OWN BODY ON THE CROSS
AND DYING, AND RISING AGAIN FROM THE DEAD,
HAVING BEEN QUICKENED BY THE SPIRIT
PLACES AN INDIVIDUAL IN CHRIST
CAUSING THE INDIVIDUAL'S DEAD | DYING BODY
TO BE QUICKENED
WHICH WILL PRODUCE
THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY FROM DEATH
(WITH CHRIST'S RESURRECTION), WHEN HE RETURNS,
AND THE REGENERATION OF ALL THINGS.
THIS IS EVERLASTING LIFE
AND THIS IS THE NEW TESTAMENT'S TEACHING
ALL THANKS TO CHRIST TAKING ON A HUMAN BODY,
AND TAKING OUR SIN UPON HIMSELF,
BEARING THE SIN IN HIS OWN BODY ON THE CROSS
AND DYING, AND RISING AGAIN FROM THE DEAD,
HAVING BEEN QUICKENED BY THE SPIRIT
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
And that thought right there comes from misunderstanding and JESUS would rebuke you like HE did Peter = Matt 16:21-23
No one can be part of the First Resurrection unless they are already Part of the First Resurrection for A precedes B
John 3: 1-6
A.) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 11:25
B.) Jesus said to her, “I am the Resurrection and the Life(Eternal Life)
You MUST FIRST pass thru the DOOR or you will be no more...........
C.) JESUS says: I am the Door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Crystal Clear like Heaven = Revelation 4:6
In God's Book of Life He begins with ABC's
When we know and believe His ABC's = you will be KNOWN of CHRIST
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Read my post again. I edited it because I quoted your post twice and hopefully it will make sense to you.
You are conflating being born of the Spirit and the life (zoe) of Christ and that we experience in Christ, with living in your body [zao], the death of the body, and the resurrection of the body.
Jesus was not conflating the concepts when talking to Martha. You are. You need to be sure of who will receive a rebuke from Him before you make that sort of puffed-up statement.
@David in NJ Jesus was not telling Martha that Lazarus and everyone else must be born of the Spirit, though that it is OBVIOUSLY true that no one will live again in the body [zao] forever UNLESS that person has been born again.
But you are adding that to what Jesus said to Martha. Jesus will rebuke you for stubbornly continuing to add to His words to Martha and what He was talking about there if you do not let ago of your puffed-up statement regarding being rebuked by Him.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
No i am not conflating AND this is where @rwb and @WPM and @covenantee are 100% on TARGET with God's Heart
Go back to our ABC's from our FATHER
John 3: 1-6
A.) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 11:25
B.) Jesus said to her, “I am the Resurrection and the Life(Eternal Life)
You MUST FIRST pass thru the DOOR or you will be no more...........
C.) JESUS says: I am the Door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to separate being Born-Again by the Spirit from the First Resurrection in CHRIST
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Never forget that you and i can banter together without being overly sensitive whereby we lose fellowship.
We are Brethren and our FATHER wants us to Sharpen each other in His Word.
i am not above you and neither are you above me = we sit at the Feet of our LORD Jesus Christ = together
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
You have added to Jesus' words to Martha by saying He was telling her that Lazarus must be born of the Spirit or he will never see the Kingdom of God (even though that is also true) but in John 11:24-26 all He was saying to her was that Lazarus would live in the body again as will anyone who dies in Christ, and that whoever is alive in the body AND BELIEVES IN HIM will never experience the death of the body.
It's obvious that He was meaning after the resurrection of the dead when He returns in John 11:26.
It's a shame that you of all people would add words to Christ in one verse like that.
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Cut the jibes out, please. It is getting old. We are supposed to be having an adult conversation.
1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?
What corroborating Scripture do you believe clearly shows support for your opinion of Rev 20:
- Jesus on earth on a future millennial earth.
- The millennial earth is perfect and pristine.
- Salvation restarts in a future age after the second coming.
- Humans in mortal bodies become sinless.
- Sinners become sinless outside of salvation.
- This millennium sees wholesale obedience by unregenerate mortals to Jesus.
- Billions of sinners who became sinless as soon as they entered this future millennium suddenly become the grossest and most foolish bunch of sinners ever to live as they en-mass become Satan worshipers as soon as 1,000 years is up.
- Corruptible mortals interact with glorified believers for 1000 years+.
- The old covenant ceremonial arrangement is restarted in full, including the feasts and festivals, the universal observance of Jewish customs, the return of blood sin offerings in a future temple (whether real or memorial) or the restarting of the old covenant priesthood in the future.
- Salvation restarts in a future age after the second coming.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
JESUS already laid the Foundation of TRUTH in John 3:1-10
That TRUTH remains FORWARD in the GOSPEL = It is IMPOSSIBLE to separate them from each other.
Look at the EVIDENCE of JESUS words = Matthew 25:1-13
And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
“Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’
But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Eternal life is in Christ. Those who are in Christ will enter the Kingdom of Christ. Only those who are born of the Spirit will inherit the Kingdom of Christ.
Jesus was not talking about the above fact when He told Martha that Lazarus and whoever believes in Him will live in the body again EVEN THOUGH HE DIES, because He (Jesus) is the resurrection and eternal life, and that WHOEVER IS ALIVE IN THE BODY AND BELIEVES IN JESUS WILL NEVER DIE.
It is absolutely obvious from the context and the meaning of the word zao (to be alive in the body) that Jesus was talking in verse 26 about those whoa re alive in the body following the resurrection of all who are in Him when He returns.
It's a pity you so quickly hurl an accusation like the puffed-up "Jesus will rebuke you" just because it's been pointed out to you what you have failed to understand and rightly discern.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
No HE won't because your accusation is baseless.
You are arguing not against me but the very words of CHRIST = ABC's of God's Plan of Salvation
Return to the simple TRUTH that no one part of the first resurrected UNLESS they have been BORN-AGAIN by the SPIRIT
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Jesus said that in order that we all individually can make sure the above words will never apply to us, not so that we can tell others to beware it applies to them - ESPECIALLY not when it has been pointed out to someone that he has failed to rightly divide the Word of Truth in one particular verse in scripture.
God bless you David and may you have a good day after this.
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