It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Spiritual Israelite]

But you have never shown what is the danger to me for watching for the Lord sooner than post trib people think. What's Jesus going to do to me for that? Send me to hell? Punish me?

Show your work...

When did I ever say there was any danger in that? I never have. Send you to hell for that? I've never said anything like that. Are you paranoid?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh..../KJV

Better read it again. That's talking about the rapture.

I didn't say it's not talking about the rapture. You need to read it again in context. Do you ignore what is written just before that? That passage is about the coming of the Son of man. Jesus said the coming of the Son of man and gathering of the elect occurs "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31). Why are you just ignoring that? You say His coming occurs before the tribulation of those days which directly contradicts what Jesus Himself said.

Matthew 24:32
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:.../KJV

At this point Jesus has answered all 3 of the Apostles questions, and He continues to talk but adds some other stuff in. As in...NOW, learn a parable of the fig tree, and He goes into talking about the rapture.

You dont use a Concordance much do you?

LOL. This is complete nonsense. He does not change the subject there. The subject is the coming of the Son of man in the verses just preceding that and continues to be about His coming in the verses after that. You are making scripture say what you want it to say by acting as if He completely changed the subject there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yep. But it's really not because He doesnt come to the earth when He comes for His Bride. But most people have a bit of confusion with that.

Yep, you believe in 3 comings of Christ. And you think that should be taken seriously? It can't. Scripture says He is coming from heaven again once, not twice. It says "he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him" (Hebrews 9:28) and that He "will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11). He will come from heaven only once in the future. This third coming you believe in is not taught anywhere in scripture and is something that was made up in the 1800s when the pretrib rapture doctrine was first imagined. When He comes, He will gather His people to Himself and destroy His enemies right after that.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[WPM]

Yep. But it's really not because He doesnt come to the earth when He comes for His Bride. But most people have a bit of confusion with that.

Where does it say He goes to heaven in your rapture passages?

 

[Davy]

I seem to be having some trouble understanding how Jesus warnings relate to believing in a pre trib rapture. I'm going on the understanding of Matthew 24:42-44

Then turn to the Luke 17 version of that warning, and you should... begin to fathom that the first one 'taken' is NOT to Jesus...

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

The Matthew 24:28 version of Jesus' answer:

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

Will you be like a dead "carcase" taken to where the fowls will be gathered, that eat on such things? That was Jesus' actual answer to His disciple's question of "Where, Lord?" that the first ones 'taken'... would be taken to. I hope in Christ that you say no, that you do NOT plan on being 'taken' to where those fowls will be gathered.

Sorry, but the pre-trib rapture theory from men is teaching the opposite of what Lord Jesus warned about being the first ones "taken". Those who remain in Christ Jesus waiting for His coming are to be left-behind, still working for Him as "a chaste virgin" until He comes after the tribulation.

 

[MA2444]

yeah I dont subscribe to that point of view.

 

[Jay Ross]

yeah I dont subscribe to that point of view.

How about Luke 17:33 which Davy did not reference in his post: -

Luke 17:33: - Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.​

Is Pre-tribulation a means that many people hope will enable them to save their life and still be able to enter into eternity.

I for one do not believe that the Pre-trib. works that way. Unless we are prepared to die for what we believe in then we are not believers now, and as such we will not be judged to be righteous.

 

[WPM]

yeah I dont subscribe to that point of view.

Let the Scriptures speak for themselves. Your issue is plainly with God's Word!

 

[WPM]

yeah I dont subscribe to that point of view.

After describing the rescue of his children, and also warning of the destruction that follows, the disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

This statement sums up the aftermath of this great climactic event. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction. The fowls are depicted as gathering to eat what is left behind. Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate.

This conclusion is reinforced by Christ’s corresponding words in Matthew 24:27-30: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”

The fowls will feed on the dead “carcase” that lies in the destruction that accompanies Christ’s return.

Revelation 19 correlates with showing how the eagles devour those left behind. The flesh of all me are consumed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

After describing the rescue of his children, and also warning of the destruction that follows, the disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

This statement sums up the aftermath of this great climactic event. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction. The fowls are depicted as gathering to eat what is left behind. Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate.

This conclusion is reinforced by Christ’s corresponding words in Matthew 24:27-30: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”

The fowls will feed on the dead “carcase” that lies in the destruction that accompanies Christ’s return.

Revelation 19 correlates with showing how the eagles devour those left behind. The flesh of all me are consumed.

Exactly. The pre-trib idea that those left behind continue to live during a 7 year period of tribulation is not supported at all by the text. Jesus taught that those left behind will all be killed just like those left behind and out of the ark in Noah's day were all killed and those left behind in Sodom on the day that Lot went out of Sodom were all killed

 

[The Light]

Then turn to the Luke 17 version of that warning, and you should... begin to fathom that the first one 'taken' is NOT to Jesus...

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

The Matthew 24:28 version of Jesus' answer:

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

Will you be like a dead "carcase" taken to where the fowls will be gathered, that eat on such things? That was Jesus' actual answer to His disciple's question of "Where, Lord?" that the first ones 'taken'... would be taken to. I hope in Christ that you say no, that you do NOT plan on being 'taken' to where those fowls will be gathered.

Hi Davy,

Want to come out to play.

Maybe this will help.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Sorry, but the pre-trib rapture theory from men is teaching the opposite of what Lord Jesus warned about being the first ones "taken". Those who remain in Christ Jesus waiting for His coming are to be left-behind, still working for Him as "a chaste virgin" until He comes after the tribulation.

You seem to be confused. Pretrib comes from the Bible. The doctrine of Amil came from unbelieving men who didn't believe that God would keep His promise to Israel.

 

[The Light]

Exactly. The pre-trib idea that those left behind continue to live during a 7 year period of tribulation is not supported at all by the text. Jesus taught that those left behind will all be killed just like those left behind and out of the ark in Noah's day were all killed and those left behind in Sodom on the day that Lot went out of Sodom were all killed

Noah pretrib...........in the ark before the flood comes.

But the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

Two raptures, one like the days of Noah and one like the days of Lot.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Noah pretrib...........in the ark before the flood comes.

But the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

Two raptures, one like the days of Noah and one like the days of Lot.

False.
The rapture will only occur on the LAST TRUMP, when the sSEVENTH ANGEL sounds, ON THE LAST DAY. Not 7 years prior. See, the pretribbers like to view their false 7-year period great tribulation doctrine as the WRATH of God. No, the great tribulation is a trial or a tribulation for God's Elect as the church fell into apostasy. God commanded His people (chosen Elect with the Holy Spirit) that when they see the abomination of desolation takes place in the fallen church, they need to flee...

Luke 21:21-22

• "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
• For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

These are the days of vengeance, a time when the church which has become spiritually Babylon, will fall. THIS is when the God's wrath will take place upon His unfaithful church. Comparing scripture with scripture, we see that we are to flee so that we not be caught up in the wrath of God upon her, and this takes place right PRIOR to the Second Coming. This fleeing is not the "rapture" of the Church. And the fleeing is not from Romans in 70AD, nor fleeing from Antichrist's armies to Jordan, but from the judgment of the WHORE (Revelation 18). It is the wrath of God UPON THIS PEOPLE. Not the whole world (yet). Remember the judgment must take place in the House of God (church). Look at Jeremiah 51 as an example for the New Testament congregation of Israel, the church! In spiritual sense!

Jeremiah 51:6-8

• "Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.
• Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
• Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed."

Let our soul flee as a bird to it's mountain to escape the days of vengeance of Matthew 24. This is the judgment of the great harlot, not AD 70 of the falling of bricks and Roman conquerors. And not the falling of third temple and antichrist's wrath in the future. The judgment of the whore is taking place... right now. What do you see in the Church all over the world? Depending on whether you have the spirit of the Lord to be able to "SEE" the signs of Christ's return.

 

[The Light]

False.
The rapture will only occur on the LAST TRUMP, when the sSEVENTH ANGEL sounds, ON THE LAST DAY.

There will be a rapture at the LAST TRUMP............which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets by a man.

Not 7 years prior. See, the pretribbers like to view their false 7-year period great tribulation doctrine as the WRATH of God.

I will agree with with you that most pretribbers think there is a 7 year tribulation and think the tribulation is the wrath of God. This is in error. Once we understand there are two raptures and the second rapture occurs immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days every thing falls into place perfectly.

No, the great tribulation is a trial or a tribulation for God's Elect as the church fell into apostasy. God commanded His people (chosen Elect with the Holy Spirit) that when they see the abomination of desolation takes place in the fallen church, they need to flee...

Luke 21:21-22

• "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
• For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

This is talking about the Jews in Israel. The Church is already in heaven before the great tribulation.

These are the days of vengeance, a time when the church which has become spiritually Babylon, will fall.

This is not the days of vengeance. The Day of the Lord is the day of vengeance, and it lasts for one year.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

THIS is when the God's wrath will take place upon His unfaithful church.

Please. God wrath is upon the unrighteous. The righteous will already be in heaven before wrath begins.

Comparing scripture with scripture, we see that we are to flee so that we not be caught up in the wrath of God upon her, and this takes place right PRIOR to the Second Coming. This fleeing is not the "rapture" of the Church. And the fleeing is not from Romans in 70AD, nor fleeing from Antichrist's armies to Jordan, but from the judgment of the WHORE (Revelation 18). It is the wrath of God UPON THIS PEOPLE. Not the whole world (yet). Remember the judgment must take place in the House of God (church). Look at Jeremiah 51 as an example for the New Testament congregation of Israel, the church! In spiritual sense!

Jeremiah 51:6-8

• "Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.
• Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
• Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed."

This is talking about fleeing the teaching of the Roman Church. So many that truly love God are in the Roman Church, which has brought the Babylonian religion into the Church of Rome.

Let our soul flee as a bird to it's mountain to escape the days of vengeance of Matthew 24. This is the judgment of the great harlot, not AD 70 of the falling of bricks and Roman conquerors. And not the falling of third temple and antichrist's wrath in the future. The judgment of the whore is taking place... right now. What do you see in the Church all over the world? Depending on whether you have the spirit of the Lord to be able to "SEE" the signs of Christ's return.

The judgement of the Babylon is not taking place currently. However, it is at the very door.

 

[WPM]

Noah pretrib...........in the ark before the flood comes.

But the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

Two raptures, one like the days of Noah and one like the days of Lot.

Jesus compared His 1 coming to both days. The same day His elect were rescued in both all the wicked were destroyed. There will be no survivors. There will be no tribulation period after His 1 climactic coming. Just utter destruction.

 

[WPM]

Hi Davy,

Want to come out to play.

Maybe this will help.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


You seem to be confused. Pretrib comes from the Bible. The doctrine of Amil came from unbelieving men who didn't believe that God would keep His promise to Israel.

For the umpteenth time, where is your tribulation following in that text? Please quote.

 

[The Light]

Jesus compared His 1 coming to both days. The same day His elect were rescued in both all the wicked were destroyed. There will be no survivors. There will be no tribulation period after His 1 climactic coming. Just utter destruction.

Mmm.........
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

And what do you do with this coming of Jesus?

Revelation 14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

And what do you do with this coming? Pretend it's not there?


Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

 

[The Light]

For the umpteenth time, where is your tribulation following in that text? Please quote.

1 Thes 5
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The chapter is concluded with this statement, so your question is senseless.

Read what is written.

 

[WPM]

Mmm.........
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

And what do you do with this coming of Jesus?

Revelation 14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

And what do you do with this coming? Pretend it's not there?




Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Why do you divert away from the actual passage of the discussion to more Scripture that forbids your error? That's what you do all the time when your doctrine is exposed. It is impossible to get you to stay on topic.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

Jesus simply mentions these two days in history to show us what His one final climactic return will look like. There is no suggestion of 2 raptures in Jesus teaching. That belongs to your Left Behind novels. That is invented nonsense. The word rapture is not even in the Bible - in the original or the English. Pretribs force it in there to support their error.

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

After all, this is the actual subject that Christ is speaking of.

 

[WPM]

1 Thes 5
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The chapter is concluded with this statement, so your question is senseless.

Read what is written.

LOL. More avoidance!!! You know it is not there. It is an extra-biblical Jesuit invention foisted upon the sacred pages that you have bought into.