Not ALL the physically dead are raised at the same time, the dead in Christ rise FIRST.

[ewq1938]

No. The idea that God chose a race of people is Biblical teaching as I showed you many times.

Not exactly. God choose one sliver of a race. Jacob's brother and his children are genetically the same as Jacob and his children yet they weren't the chosen.

Now, the chosen are those who accept Christ rather than those related to Jacob physically.

 

[CadyandZoe]

How did they become Israelites? Did their DNA change into "Israelitish"?

How does anyone become a member of a country?

 

[CadyandZoe]

How did he cease to be a Gentile? Did his DNA get replaced?

Why is this important to you?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not exactly. God choose one sliver of a race. Jacob's brother and his children are genetically the same as Jacob and his children yet they weren't the chosen.

When Peter refers to the Diaspora as a "chosen race," his statement is understood from the historical context. The idea is narrowly focused on the family line that first went down to Egypt during the great famine and then came out of Egypt during the Exodus.

Now, the chosen are those who accept Christ rather than those related to Jacob physically.

God has more than one purpose for choosing people. You have mentioned two of the most common. Both are true at the same time. In Romans 9, Paul argues that not all of those whom God chose in the first sense, will be chosen in the second sense. God chose Jacob and his descendants to be his people, but it doesn't follow that he chose each of them for salvation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It's true! God did choose a race of people from before the foundation of the earth, they are the faithful race from HUMAN BEINGS! Those of faith throughout the whole human race were not chosen according to ethnicity, but according to God's grace through faith! I doubt C&Z have even the slightest understanding of what they have been taught, seeing they continue to deny being dispensational Zionist, of which they clearly are! May as well be posting to the wind!

It saddens me that someone has poisoned your heart against me so that you can't hear what I am saying to you. Do you not understand that God chooses people for one purpose and other people for a different purpose?

Perhaps, like many Evangelicals, you don't read the OT much, and so you don't know the history behind these concepts. If you spent some time reading the OT, you might see why I say the things I do.

People : Land : god(s)
In ancient times, different cultures had their own gods associated with their land and people. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, and others each had their own gods, whom they worshipped for reasons such as bringing good crops, fertility, and protection from enemies. These gods were tied to specific regions, such as the Egyptian gods being associated with Egypt, which is why Yahweh and Moses went to Egypt to confront them.

Jacob : Palestine : Yahweh
When Moses was tending his sheep, he saw a burning bush that had not been consumed by the fire. Out of curiosity, he approached the bush to see why.

Exodus 3:4-6

When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” He said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.​

In the passage above, we see all three: the people, the land, and the god. Yahweh revealed himself to Moses. (God) He declared that the land on which Moses stood was "holy ground" (Land) and Yahweh revealed himself to be the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. (People) People : Land : God. In Deuteronomy Moses declares that Yahweh chose Jacob to be his people, chosen from among all the other people's of the earth.

In this context, his purpose is clear. Yahweh desired to reveal himself to the entire world as being the one, true, real, living God, and in a context where gods were associated with a people and a land, he chose Jacob to be his people, and Palestine to be his land. We understand that Yahweh is the god of everyone and he is not restricted to any one place. But during a time when world culture all agreed that god's were loyal to one particular people and located at one particular place, Yahweh decided to reveal himself through Jacob at Palestine.

Take note that God's purpose here is not to save souls. That aspect of his plan will be revealed later. And the great mystery of the ages will be revealed that the salvation of a soul will depend on what one thinks about Jesus Christ. But early in Israel's history, the plan was focused on revealing God's existence, his righteous character, and his love for mankind, which took place in the context of a people, and a land.

With me so far?

 

[rwb]

It saddens me that someone has poisoned your heart against me so that you can't hear what I am saying to you. Do you not understand that God chooses people for one purpose and other people for a different purpose?

The chosen people of God are peoples from every nation of the earth who are saved! There are only two types or groups of people on the face of the earth. They are those chosen who are or shall be saved, and those who are forever in unbelief. My mind is not poisoned against you! I am against your DOCTRINE, because it consists of poison from the father of lies!

Perhaps, like many Evangelicals, you don't read the OT much, and so you don't know the history behind these concepts. If you spent some time reading the OT, you might see why I say the things I do.

You're just plain wrong! What I don't do is to allow the OT to prove the NT. Instead, I understand the Old Testament prophets are written to prove or bring light to that which is fulfilled in Christ written in the New. You say the things you do because you are still locked into the physical world from the Old Covenant, still looking for physical fulfillment of that which has been and is being SPIRITUALLY fulfilled from the advent of Christ come to earth a man. You are still looking for a physical Kingdom of God to come to this earth, so I have to wonder whether you have missed the FACT that Christ has already come to this earth as King of kings and Lord of lords. Like orthodox Jews still living under the Old Covenant, you will not believe Christ when He says that His Kingdom has come and the way we know and enter into His Kingdom is "Ye must be born again."

While you wait for Christ to come again to establish a physical Kingdom on an earth destined to destruction, you imagine there are still promises of God to be fulfilled unto Jews, because you think that being a Jew means they shall all be saved through Him.

Take note that God's purpose here is not to save souls. That aspect of his plan will be revealed later. And the great mystery of the ages will be revealed that the salvation of a soul will depend on what one thinks about Jesus Christ. But early in Israel's history, the plan was focused on revealing God's existence, his righteous character, and his love for mankind, which took place in the context of a people, and a land.

With me so far?

Apparently, you're the one who has not read the Old Testament very well! Or perhaps you cannot understand the purpose for which One was ordained to come to be the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, and revealed to mankind from the beginning when Adam and Eve being cursed by God were cast out of the garden, with a promise that though there would be great enmity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman the One chosen would be He who would crush the head of the serpent rendering the serpent without ability to hold in bondage to fear of death whosoever believed in Him. You see from the very beginning there has always been only two peoples of the earth, those ordained to be born of the SEED (Christ) and the rest ordained to be of the seed of the serpent.

While it is true that Christ was ordained to be born a Jew, it is not true that the whole nation of Israel have been chosen to be eternally saved through Him. Even from Old only those from among the nation of Israel who remained obedient to the Law and learned from the prophets would die in their sins UNLESS they believed (had faith) in what they were taught of the coming Messiah Who would redeem them. Even if they obeyed all the law required of them perfectly, they would not be saved if they died without FAITH.

All who are chosen for everlasting life are chosen through the One Who was chosen from before the foundation of the world, and it does not matter whether they are Jew or Gentiles those chosen to be saved is not dependent upon what earthly nation they are born to.

If you desire to teach others about the Bible, whether Old or New Testament, you would do well to learn the truth yourself before proving yourself to be a teacher of that which is not Biblical but is in fact coming from the father of lies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are making an unexamined assumption by wrongly assigning both groups to "Spiritual Israel." Both groups are children of promise, but that fact alone does not indicate one group. They are united under Christ and share that in common, but they don't have the same history, nor do they share the promise of God in common.

You continue to prove that your knowledge and understanding of scripture is non-existent and you have no idea at all of what you're talking about.

They do share the promise of God in common, as Paul made clear.

Ephesian 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Paul revealed a mystery here that is obviously still a mystery to you for whatever reason.

 

[covenantee]

How does anyone become a member of a country?

By complying with its requirements. His/her physical DNA does not change.

Your problem is your refusal to distinguish between race and faith. The physical DNA of the "strangers" who joined Israel did not change.

But as they recognized God, complied with His Covenant requirements, and by the exercise of their faith and obedience entered into a Covenant relationship with Him, their spiritual DNA certainly changed.

They became "spiritual Israelites", joining those ethnic Israelites who through the exercise of the same faith and obedience, also qualified as "spiritual Israelites".

And it has always been "spiritual Israelites", regardless of physical ethnicity and DNA, who are the true Chosen Israelites of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The chosen people of God are peoples from every nation of the earth who are saved!

I agree with that. But what I said is also true.

I am against your DOCTRINE, because it consists of poison from the father of lies!

Really? What makes you say that? I quote scripture. What scripture do you say comes from the father of lies?

You're just plain wrong! What I don't do is to allow the OT to prove the NT.

What makes you different than Jesus and the Apostles who prove their teaching from the OT?

Instead, I understand the Old Testament prophets are written to prove or bring light to that which is fulfilled in Christ written in the New.

Okay. What's the difference?

You say the things you do because you are still locked into the physical world from the Old Covenant, still looking for physical fulfillment of that which has been and is being SPIRITUALLY fulfilled from the advent of Christ come to earth a man.

I see no evidence that what was prophesied to be fulfilled in the physical shouldn't be understood that way.

You are still looking for a physical Kingdom of God to come to this earth

That's right. I look forward to a physical kingdom of God to come on this earth because Jesus did.

so I have to wonder whether you have missed the FACT that Christ has already come to this earth as King of kings and Lord of lords.

And he will come again as King of Kings and Lord of Lord's and he will sit on David's throne along with the twelve apostles who will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel. Mathew 19:28, Luke 22:30, Acts 26:7, Revelation 21:12

Like orthodox Jews still living under the Old Covenant, you will not believe Christ when He says that His Kingdom has come and the way we know and enter into His Kingdom is "Ye must be born again."

Did I say anything like that? I don't think I did.

While you wait for Christ to come again to establish a physical Kingdom on an earth destined to destruction, you imagine there are still promises of God to be fulfilled unto Jews, because you think that being a Jew means they shall all be saved through Him.

I never said anything like that, did I? No. This is what I mean by "poisoned against me." You gave me a label and assume that every attribute associated with that label is true about me. You know what THAT is called?

Apparently, you're the one who has not read the Old Testament very well!

How can I listen to someone critique my position, who doesn't believe that the OT is inspired scripture? If the OT is inspired, which I believe, then it stands on it's own without any need for NT apostles to make up meaning that isn't there.

While it is true that Christ was ordained to be born a Jew, it is not true that the whole nation of Israel have been chosen to be eternally saved through Him.

Did I say that the nation of Israel would be saved another way? I don't think I did. Why do you make stuff up about what I say? I don't get that.

All who are chosen for everlasting life are chosen through the One Who was chosen from before the foundation of the world, and it does not matter whether they are Jew or Gentiles those chosen to be saved is not dependent upon what earthly nation they are born to.

I agree with all of that. But it doesn't defeat or contradict what I said.

If you desire to teach others about the Bible, whether Old or New Testament, you would do well to learn the truth yourself before proving yourself to be a teacher of that which is not Biblical but is in fact coming from the father of lies.

You have me confused with someone else.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You continue to prove that your knowledge and understanding of scripture is non-existent and you have no idea at all of what you're talking about.

And you continue to make false accusations.

They do share the promise of God in common, as Paul made clear.

Did I say that they DON'T share the promise in common? No. I never said that. You claim that because they share the promise in common, Paul is lumping Gentiles into the Israel of Romans 9. That isn't true. He is not doing that.

 

[Davy]

The first resurrection is to the dead in Christ, they rise first-1 Thessalonians 4:16

Obviously, you haven't read enough of The Bible to know what you are talking about. The preacher you are listening to has misled you.

Per John 5:28-29, Jesus showed at His future coming, ALL... in the graves shall come forth, either to the "resurrection of life", or to the "resurrection of damnation".

That means the 'wicked dead'... are raised by Christ on that SAME day of His coming when He raises the 'asleep' saints and gathers His Church.

Now go figure that out, since by that Jesus revealed the wicked dead go through His future "thousand years" reign with His elect. All... the spiritually dead will be outside the gates of the holy city during His future reign, and that means the resurrected wicked dead, and the wicked that are still alive on the day of Jesus' return.

 

[Davy]

The “resurrection of damnation” is the second resurrection of the rest of the dead at the GWT judgement.

But at Christs return the living wicked go directly into the fire.

Nope. You haven't read enough of your Bible, as you are just GUESSING.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Zech 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And you continue to make false accusations.

Did I say that they DON'T share the promise in common? No. I never said that. You claim that because they share the promise in common, Paul is lumping Gentiles into the Israel of Romans 9. That isn't true. He is not doing that.

God doesn't have 2 separate people groups who are His children of the promise no matter how much you want that to be the case. Scripture says Jew and Gentile believers are all one in Christ Jesus. One body. Not two.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Obviously, you haven't read enough of The Bible to know what you are talking about. The preacher you are listening to has misled you.

Per John 5:28-29, Jesus showed at His future coming, ALL... in the graves shall come forth, either to the "resurrection of life", or to the "resurrection of damnation".

That means the 'wicked dead'... are raised by Christ on that SAME day of His coming when He raises the 'asleep' saints and gathers His Church.

Now go figure that out, since by that Jesus revealed the wicked dead go through His future "thousand years" reign with His elect. All... the spiritually dead will be outside the gates of the holy city during His future reign, and that means the resurrected wicked dead, and the wicked that are still alive on the day of Jesus' return.

Your doctrine is so messed up, it's unbelievable. You correctly have the wicked dead being resurrected on the day of His second coming, but then you have them going through the supposed future thousand years. That's complete nonsense. No, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 make it clear that they will be cast into the lake of fire at that point and not inexplicably allowed to live on for 1,000+ more years.

 

[Davy]

I find this interesting that you bring this up.

Note also, that the dead who are in Christ, are also the "first to humble themselves". In other words, their character is exemplary.

I still am amazed that as a Christian he would support the Jew's old false 'dead in the ground' tradition. The resurrection, as Apostle Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 is to a "spiritual body", not another flesh physical body. Paul even said in 1 Cor.15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, neither does corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (spirit body).

 

[rwb]

What makes you different than Jesus and the Apostles who prove their teaching from the OT?

No! The New is confirmed by using the Old Covenant prophecies that foretell of the Messiah who was to come had indeed has come when Jesus Christ came to earth a human! You try desperately to force the New to prove the Old! That's backwards thinking! The physical things of Old the prophets speak of look forward (not backward) to the coming of God to this world to build the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God, now in heaven, through Jesus Christ the Messiah promised to be the One to come and save ALL people of faith.

I see no evidence that what was prophesied to be fulfilled in the physical shouldn't be understood that way.

Why is that? Because your mind is fixed on physical things of this world! How can you possibly understand the Kingdom of God that is not of this world, cannot be seen with physical sight, but that is within you, since your mind is fixed on the physical things of this world?

That's right. I look forward to a physical kingdom of God to come on this earth because Jesus did.

You prove my point! You're preoccupied with the physical fulfillment of the Kingdom of God that is NOT OF THIS WORLD! The Kingdom of God is eternal and shall never end! But your doctrine needs a physical kingdom on this earth even though you should know this earth is destined to utter destruction by fire. Do you have no understanding of eternal/everlasting/forever? The Kingdom of God shall never be found on this first earth.

How can I listen to someone critique my position, who doesn't believe that the OT is inspired scripture? If the OT is inspired, which I believe, then it stands on it's own without any need for NT apostles to make up meaning that isn't there.

You don't listen to anyone, and several have tried, who have shown you time and again that your Dispensational Zionist doctrine does not come FROM the Word of God but is FORCED UPON the Word of God. Don't be obtuse, or speak of my understanding of Scripture, because while you're trying so desperately to prove the unbiblical doctrine you espouse, you show yourself to be foolish and of great pride! The Bible, Old & New Testaments are rightly divided only by using them together and understanding the difference between that which was of Old and that which is of New since the advent of Christ coming to earth a man. If ignorance keeps you from understanding that which is discerned through the Holy Spirit within, perhaps it's because you are trying to understand from the position of natural mankind without the Spirit of Christ to guide you.

You have me confused with someone else.

I don't think so! You are the one who denies the deity of Christ! That alone is cause for ignoring anything you say. I don't reply to you thinking your doctrinal positions might be changed. I reply to you so others might not be deceived by the unbiblical doctrines you espouse. I say this not out of animosity against, but because I pity those who think they have rightly divided the Word of God, but who by their doctrine prove themselves to be unlearned in the deep things of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God doesn't have 2 separate people groups who are His children of the promise no matter how much you want that to be the case. Scripture says Jew and Gentile believers are all one in Christ Jesus. One body. Not two.

I agree with you but that isn't the question we are discussing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree with you but that isn't the question we are discussing.

Yes, it is what we were discussing. You said this:

Both groups are children of promise, but that fact alone does not indicate one group. They are united under Christ and share that in common, but they don't have the same history, nor do they share the promise of God in common.

By "both groups" you were talking about Jew and Gentile believers. You say they don't share the promise of God in common, but I say they do and gave evidence from scripture to back up my view including the scripture which says that Gentile believers are fellow heirs with Israelite believers of God's promises (Ephesians 3:1-6). He doesn't have separate promises for His people. His people are one body. One in Christ. You say you agree with this, but say other things to indicate that you don't agree with this, so I think you are just completely confused.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No! The New is confirmed by using the Old Covenant prophecies that foretell of the Messiah who was to come had indeed has come when Jesus Christ came to earth a human! You try desperately to force the New to prove the Old! That's backwards thinking! The physical things of Old the prophets speak of look forward (not backward) to the coming of God to this world to build the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God, now in heaven, through Jesus Christ the Messiah promised to be the One to come and save ALL people of faith.

I don't accept your premise that the prophesies predicting physical people and events should be understood allegorically concerning spiritual people and events. That isn't how the Bible speaks to us.

Why is that?

Because that is not how language communicates.

Because your mind is fixed on physical things of this world!

That isn't true. I can distinguish between allegorical language and literal language. I do not agree with the Amillennial hermeneutical approach, which interprets literal language allegorically to fit a predetermined idea. There is no justification for altering the meaning of words to fit a predetermined idea.

For instance, when Peter says that the Diaspora is a "chosen race" he means it the way the Lord meant it when he spoke through Moses. There is NO justification for reinterpreting Moses symbolically, forcing Peter to say what he didn't mean.

How can you possibly understand the Kingdom of God that is not of this world, cannot be seen with physical sight, but that is within you, since your mind is fixed on the physical things of this world?

Who said that the kingdom of God couldn't be seen physically? Where did you get that idea?

You prove my point! You're preoccupied with the physical fulfillment of the Kingdom of God that is NOT OF THIS WORLD! The Kingdom of God is eternal and shall never end! But your doctrine needs a physical kingdom on this earth even though you should know this earth is destined to utter destruction by fire. Do you have no understanding of eternal/everlasting/forever? The Kingdom of God shall never be found on this first earth.

I don't agree with your "either/or" interpretation. The Bible teaches a "both/and" view of the kingdom. The kingdom of God is both spiritual and physical, not one or the other as you suppose.

You don't listen to anyone, and several have tried, who have shown you time and again that your Dispensational Zionist doctrine does not come FROM the Word of God but is FORCED UPON the Word of God.

My objection to your view still stands. Your view can't possibly be correct because you interpret literal passages allegorically.

Don't be obtuse, or speak of my understanding of Scripture, because while you're trying so desperately to prove the unbiblical doctrine you espouse, you show yourself to be foolish and of great pride!

So far, you haven't proven that my views are unbiblical. You express your disagreement. That's it.

The Bible, Old & New Testaments are rightly divided only by using them together and understanding the difference between that which was of Old and that which is of New since the advent of Christ coming to earth a man.

What you say doesn't make sense to me. Either God spoke truthfully in the past or he didn't. Which is it?

If ignorance keeps you from understanding that which is discerned through the Holy Spirit within, perhaps it's because you are trying to understand from the position of natural mankind without the Spirit of Christ to guide you.

Why do you arrogantly presume to know whether or not the Spirit is guiding me? Why can't two brothers examine the scriptures together with mutual respect?

I don't think so! You are the one who denies the deity of Christ!

I disagree with the Council of Nicaea. What's the big deal? I disagree with a lot of Catholic teaching.

That alone is cause for ignoring anything you say.

Why? How does that make sense? I'm not your teacher. I'm not commanding you to believe what I say. All we are doing is looking at scripture passages together. And so far, you seem unwilling to examine them fairly.

I don't reply to you thinking your doctrinal positions might be changed. I reply to you so others might not be deceived by the unbiblical doctrines you espouse.

What if you are mistaken and my ideas and views ARE Biblical?

I say this not out of animosity against, but because I pity those who think they have rightly divided the Word of God, but who by their doctrine prove themselves to be unlearned in the deep things of God.

If you don't think that I am handling the scriptures correctly, with care and accuracy, then your time is better spent showing where and how I haven't done that. In my view, spiritualizing or allegorizing passages to fit a preconceived point of view does not qualify as handling the scriptures correctly, with care and accuracy.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, it is what we were discussing.

Our discussion revolves around 1 Peter 2:9, where Peter refers to the diaspora as the 'chosen people.' You and the others seem to interpret this as an allegory for the Church. I, however, disagree with this view, as I find it neither Biblical nor factual. Your references to Romans 9, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 2 are an attempt to support your case that both Paul and Peter use OT words symbolically to indicate attributes of the Church. I've already specified my reasons for disagreeing with your conclusions.

Just to clarify, I was not referring to Jewish and Gentile believers as two separate groups. I was actually addressing the comparison you made between Romans 9 and Galatians 3, which I believe is a false analogy fallacy. Galatians discusses the sons of Abraham, while Romans discusses the sons of Jacob. In my view, spiritual Israel encompasses people who are both the spiritual sons of Abraham and the physical sons of Jacob. This, I believe, is the main point that Paul is making in Romans 9.