Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Bladerunner]

Of course I don't believe that. Have you never read the New Testament? God clearly has ONE plan for ONE body of people, including Jew and Gentile believers. That plan was to send His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the whole world so that both Jews and Gentiles could be saved in the ONE body of Christ, the church. There is no other plan that God has for His people.

Have you never read this?

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

have you ever read the Old Testament, It and the NT are one book.

 

[Bladerunner]

Not only does the Bible not teach that there are two distinct peoples of God, ethnic Israel and the gentile Church, but it is very explicitly opposed to this idea. John 10:16, John 17:22-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, Colossians 3:11

Throughout the entire Bible, OT and NT it teaches that GOD (the Father) has a wife and it is Israel. Jesus in the NT has a Bride and it is the Church. The Church is Raptured to Heaven before Daniel's 70th week and the marriage supper happens in Rev 19 just before the 2nd advent of Jesus and the 1,000 years of His reign on earth.(millennium).. During the Tribulation Rev 12, those who flee Judeae at the "Abomination of Desolate" will be feed and watered 3.5 years, The last half of Daniel's 70th week known as "The Great Tribulation" or "Jacob's Troubles" at the beginning of the millennium (1,000 years of Christ rule on earth) God will give these people (Jews) the New Covenant *Ezekiel 36:25-29......

 

[Biblepaige]

I just thought of this after reading this thread and some others here.

You know what 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us?
Isn't it wild how it all proves true in BDF'S?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not surprised that you would not want to address this. Why would you?

Exactly. Why would I? No reason. As I said, it's a waste of time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

have you ever read the Old Testament, It and the NT are one book.

Of course I have. And I don't interpret it in such a way that contradicts the NT like you do. The NT shines light on the OT prophecies. It quotes many of them and explains what they are about and how they have been or will be fulfilled. The NT authors clearly did not agree with your understanding of the OT prophecies since they do not teach what you claim the OT prophecies are about.

Why did you not address what I said in my post? Do you not care that your doctrine does not line up with what Paul taught in Ephesians 2:11-22?

 

[David in NJ]

What do you or what have you heard about these two plans, so I don't go over details already known?

What i have observed is an attempt to establish two covenants(plans) - one for the Jew and another one for the Gentile

This is being carried out by men who follow the doctrine of dispensationalism.
The purpose is to draw the minds of 'christians' away from the Truth so that other man-made doctrines take precedent.
Thus the establishment of yet another denomination which separates.

 

[Bladerunner]

Please give more detail to your "two plans" - thank you

At one time, there was only one nation among the men God had created...Then in Genesis 12 , He made a covenant with Abram (to be Abraham) to become a nation among men. This was the beginning of the Jewish Nation. He chose them, loved them protected them and judged them harshly. This Nation would become His wife to be divorced for 1700 years before bringing them back to the land that He gave them (1948). Today, they are still blinded by Him until the fullness of the Gentiles. What this means is that for 1700 years and beyond, Jerusalem will be ruled by gentiles. Only toward the end (3.5 years) of Daniel's 70th week (Tribulations) will their eyes be opened, they can understand who Jesus really was and is: The Machiack Nagid, the Messiah, the King. This is in the OT but is referenced many times in the NT.

The NT starts with the birth of a son Jesus Christ both of GOD (his Father) and Israel (his mother). When Jesus entered the city of Jerusalem on April 6, 32 AD. He wept for them, blinding them for not knowing that He the Messiah was coming on this day..From this time on until the fullness of the Gentiles, the people of Israel (most of them) would deny Him His deity until 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week was spent. Yes, He was crucified by the nation that bore Him. Yet His death pays for the sins of multitudes and His resurrection ensures that death has no power over the people whom He died for. fifty days later He was translated to Heaven but before then He created His Church to be filled with the spirits of those who believe in Him and His WORD! (John 1:1). This church would become His Bride (based on the OT marriage), She will be Raptured before Daniel's 70th week along with all of those dead believers. Before the 2nd advent of Jesus Christ, the Marriage supper event will happen (Rev 19). The Church Saints will come back with Jesus earth for the final Battle at Armageddon. (Rev 19)

Half way through Daniel's 70th week (Rev 12), the Abomination of Desolate event will happen. Those Jews who believe in Jesus Christ must flee Judeae. God feeds and waters these believers for the last half of Daniel's 70th week, known as "The Great Tribulation", "Jacob's Troubles". God gives these people who will be known as the Remnant of Israel (his wife), the New Covenant (Ezekiel 36:25-29) and they will rule the world with Jesus Christ in Jerusalem for 1,000 years.

This is a short version of the the 2 plans that has unfolded over the last 6,000 years. If you have any specific questions I will try to answer them. There are so many verses associated with the above, it is hard to ut them all in print.

 

[David in NJ]

Your posts do not agree with this. Look, and see what I'm saying is true.

I'm serious man, look at what you write:

"The most amount of hate comes from the catholics protecting their idols and those who hold to pre-trib rapture doctrine."

You echo my words of love, but in vain, since you in the next breath say I'm a hater.

You accuse me of hate, and lies, and rebellion against God, and on and on you go, ad nauseum.

Much love!

We cannot serve God and religion.
We will cling to one and despise/reject/disregard/diminish the other.

You accuse me of hate, and lies, and rebellion against God, and on and on you go, ad nauseum.

Do you remember, a while back, when i posted the clear words of the LORD Jesus Christ and the Apostles concerning the "falling Away" and you rejected THEIR rebuke against the false claim that the apostacy was the departure of the Church via the rapture.

Do you remember your responses?
Not much love coming from you.

That was a few weeks ago - maybe you have reconsidered the words of the LORD and the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John???

If we oppose THEIR words, how is that love???

 

[Bladerunner]

Of course I have. And I don't interpret it in such a way that contradicts the NT like you do. The NT shines light on the OT prophecies. It quotes many of them and explains what they are about and how they have been or will be fulfilled. The NT authors clearly did not agree with your understanding of the OT prophecies since they do not teach what you claim the OT prophecies are about.

Why did you not address what I said in my post? Do you not care that your doctrine does not line up with what Paul taught in Ephesians 2:11-22?

I see no reason why it does not line up what I have said...Can you explain in more detail.please

 

[David in NJ]

At one time, there was only one nation among the men God had created...Then in Genesis 12 , He made a covenant with Abram (to be Abraham) to become a nation among men. This was the beginning of the Jewish Nation. He chose them, loved them protected them and judged them harshly. This Nation would become His wife to be divorced for 1700 years before bringing them back to the land that He gave them (1948). Today, they are still blinded by Him until the fullness of the Gentiles. What this means is that for 1700 years and beyond, Jerusalem will be ruled by gentiles. Only toward the end (3.5 years) of Daniel's 70th week (Tribulations) will their eyes be opened, they can understand who Jesus really was and is: The Machiack Nagid, the Messiah, the King. This is in the OT but is referenced many times in the NT.

Allow me to take one point of emphasis at a time = your paragraph above is TRUTH except that they are still divorced from God by their own choosing.

Bringing them back to the land/Israel is not yet the Restoration Promised by God, but only the fulfilling of prophecy with More to Come.

Secondly, the 70th Week is about the LORD Jesus Christ, is CURRENT and has been for 2000 Years now.
That which is Remaining in the 70th week we are rapidly approaching = the Day of Jacobs Trouble(DoJT) = last 3.5 years

Thank You for sharing some Beautiful TRUTH and i will continue looking at the rest of your post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see no reason why it does not line up what I have said...Can you explain in more detail.please

That passage and many others in the NT show that God has one plan for His people and it was accomplished by way of His Son shedding His blood for the sins of the whole world while bringing Jew and Gentile believers together as one body (body of Christ, the church). That was His grand plan for the world, including Israel. How can you miss this fundamental truth? He does not have a separate plan for Israel. His plan for all of them is the same plan He has for all people which is that they should repent and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior so that they can have eternal life. He does not have separate plans for Jews and Gentiles. The blood of Jesus brought them together as one as that passage from Ephesians 2:11-22 says. Your doctrine separates what the blood of Christ has brought together as one body.

 

[David in NJ]

I just thought of this after reading this thread and some others here.

You know what 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us?
Isn't it wild how it all proves true in BDF'S?

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

YEP, those who worship pre-trib rapture cannot understand or SEE the Truth coming from the LORD Jesus and His Apostles.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Bladerunner]

Allow me to take one point of emphasis at a time = your paragraph above is TRUTH except that they are still divorced from God by their own choosing.

I agree. Only until their blinders are removed.

Bringing them back to the land/Israel is not yet the Restoration Promised by God, but only the fulfilling of prophecy with More to Come.

Agree again. 1948 was a prophecy fulfilled. Yet, to bring them back into "ALL" the land GOD gave them will only happen once Daniel's 70th week is finished and the millennium (1,000 years) begins. This will fulfill prophecy that GOD gave Abram as will many others in the OT and NT.

Secondly, the 70th Week is about the LORD Jesus Christ, is CURRENT and has been for 2000 Years now.
That which is Remaining in the 70th week we are rapidly approaching = the Day of Jacobs Trouble(DoJT) = last 3.5 years

Here, you are mistaken. but I would like to hear why you think we are already and have been for 2000 years in Daniel's 70th week. Is it because or Revelation? Do you believe in a Millennium where Jesus Rule the world?

 

[David in NJ]

The NT starts with the birth of a son Jesus Christ both of GOD (his Father) and Israel (his mother). When Jesus entered the city of Jerusalem on April 6, 32 AD. He wept for them, blinding them for not knowing that He the Messiah was coming on this day..From this time on until the fullness of the Gentiles, the people of Israel (most of them) would deny Him His deity until 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week was spent. Yes, He was crucified by the nation that bore Him. Yet His death pays for the sins of multitudes and His resurrection ensures that death has no power over the people whom He died for. fifty days later He was translated to Heaven but before then He created His Church to be filled with the spirits of those who believe in Him and His WORD! (John 1:1). This church would become His Bride (based on the OT marriage), She will be Raptured before Daniel's 70th week along with all of those dead believers. Before the 2nd advent of Jesus Christ, the Marriage supper event will happen (Rev 19). The Church Saints will come back with Jesus earth for the final Battle at Armageddon. (Rev 19)

Again - some Beautiful TRUTH but some human error mixed in.

Please READ carefully Daniel 9:24
“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

This has already been FULFILLED in the LORD Jesus Christ and is confirmed in the Gospel, the Apostles writings, Hebrews & Revelation.

What is remaining is what comes AFTER:
the Gospel preached to all nations(we are there now)
the Jewish people receiving the Antichrist and the Day of Jacobs Trouble = Gospel and Zechariah ch14
Followed by the Second Coming of Christ, = Zechariah ch14, 1 Thess 4:13-18
the Resurrection of the Just = Daniel 12:1-3
and finally the Rapture of alive remaining saints/elect/brethren. = 1 Thess 4:13-18

 

[David in NJ]

I agree. Only until their blinders are removed.

Agree again. 1948 was a prophecy fulfilled. Yet, to bring them back into "ALL" the land GOD gave them will only happen once Daniel's 70th week is finished and the millennium (1,000 years) begins. This will fulfill prophecy that GOD gave Abram as will many others in the OT and NT.

Here, you are mistaken. but I would like to hear why you think we are already and have been for 2000 years in Daniel's 70th week. Is it because or Revelation? Do you believe in a Millennium where Jesus Rule the world?

i just want to stop and say THANK YOU for allowing and embracing dialogue that enables us to investigate the Holy Scriptures

i will give a very clear and concise fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 from the NT Scriptures = please allow time for this

Post 894 is only abbreviated and i will post the scriptures correlating Daniel 9:24

 

[Bladerunner]

i just want to stop and say THANK YOU for allowing and embracing dialogue that enables us to investigate the Holy Scriptures

i will give a very clear and concise fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 from the NT Scriptures = please allow time for this

Post 894 is only abbreviated and i will post the scriptures correlating Daniel 9:24

while your at it, please post Daniel 9: 24-27. Dan 9:24 only gives the outline of the rest of the prophecy Gabriel gave to him.

Thank you for your kind words. I love to rummage through the pages of the Bible..Thank you for helping me do that.

 

[David in NJ]

while your at it, please post Daniel 9: 24-27. Dan 9:24 only gives the outline of the rest of the prophecy Gabriel gave to him.

Thank you for your kind words. I love to rummage through the pages of the Bible..Thank you for helping me do that.

You are going to make me cry = only tears of Joy

 

[David in NJ]

“Seventy weeks are determined = It is impossible for this to be in the Future and the Gospel confirms this.
For your people and for your holy city, = Gospel = HE came to His own = the Jewish people and Jerusalem where HE died & Rose
To finish the transgression, = Gospel = John 19:28-30
To make an end of sins, = Gospel = John 3:10-17 = Luke 22:20 = Hebrews 9:28 , Hebrews 10:16-18 , 2 Corinthians 5:21
To bring in everlasting righteousness, = Gospel = Matt 6:33 , Rom 10:6-13 , 2 Peter 1:1 , Rom 5:21 , 2 Cor 5:21 and More
To seal up vision and prophecy, = Book of Revelation COMPLETES ALL Vision & Prophecy
And to anoint the Most Holy. = FUFILLED when CHRIST Ascended = Hebrews 9:11-15

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; = 69 weeks
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
“And after the sixty-two weeks(plus 7) =After the 69th Week
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; = Mid 70th Week

What remains is the coming of the wicked one = Matthew ch24, 2 Thessalonians ch2, John 5:41-43

 

[David in NJ]

while your at it, please post Daniel 9: 24-27. Dan 9:24 only gives the outline of the rest of the prophecy Gabriel gave to him.

Thank you for your kind words. I love to rummage through the pages of the Bible..Thank you for helping me do that.

Good Night Brother

 

[jeffweeder]

"and to make reconciliation for iniquity," Has this happened Yet! Yes, with Jesus Christ on the Cross.

Amen.
Yes, by his cross.
This would have been in the 70th week.
The Anointed Messiah takes office after the 7 and 62 weeks.

25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuance of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until [the coming of] the Messiah (the Anointed One), the Prince, there will be seven weeks [of years] and sixty-two weeks [of years]; it will be built again, with [a city] plaza and moat, even in times of trouble.


This would have to be true of the other points as well...By his cross/blood.


24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem),

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sins,
to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God),
to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet, and
to anoint the Most Holy Place.


Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a High Priest of the good things to come [that is, true spiritual worship], He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not a part of this [material] creation. 12 He went once for all into the Holy Place [the Holy of Holies of heaven, into the presence of God], and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, having obtained and secured eternal redemption [that is, the salvation of all who personally believe in Him as Savior].