Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Spiritual Israelite]

You did say you would. And never have. Oh you respond, about anything else. And it's a waste of my time. Besides, who wants to bicker with you? I'm done with that.

I'm inviting you to do so now and it looks like you're trying to find an excuse to avoid it. By all means, please exegete some scripture. For once.

That's an outright lie bro and you know it.

It absolutely is not and I know it.

You dont control the narrative, scripture is supposed to. So go exegete it for yourself. I tried, to no avail, so let it go. WHo cares?

You tried what? I don't even know what you're talking about. You had mentioned exegeting something from Daniel. Go ahead. Or any other scripture if you want.

The way you have been to pre tribbers, you make me want to not talk to you. I got things to do better than this.

Don't give me this holier than thou act. Your long list of nasty posts made towards post-tribs is documented for all to see.

 

[MA2444]

In my experience, pre-trib believers tend to be nicer, more loving people. Happier also!

Much love!

We are. And I dont think I've ever gotten a straight answer out of any of them. And they still want to bicker! You read that stuff? He said oh you have said mean things about post tribbers, and that is correct. A month ago? Ha! I learned their tactics and stopped playing their game. He cant bring anything up from roday, yesterday, this week, or this month, lol. Hey le's argue and bicker about something you said a month ago?!

That sounds like something a womn would say. Intent = Bickering. Come bicker with me they all said! Lol.

 

[MA2444]

I'm inviting you to do so now and it looks like you're trying to find an excuse to avoid it. By all means, please exegete some scripture. For once.

Bite me, you aint drawing me into your crap again. Have a nice day. Troll.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Look to Rev 6:9-11..."And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." and then in Rev 20:4.."And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." The Church (His Body, His Bride) received the New covenant when they are justified/glorified. Here above, the tribulation Saints in Rev 6 are those that have died for Jesus and have lost their heads at the very beginning of Daniel's 70th week. Of, course the Church has already been "caught-up" in Rev 4:1-2. In Rev 20:5, we see those that Rev 6:9 tribulation saints and GOD are speaking of.

Let me speak of this Ezekiel prophecy given to the Jews by the Lord. This prophecy is not fulfilled until the Millennium (Kingdom of Heaven) is fulfilled. Then the remnant jews will be given this prophecy..

Because the Gentiles have been grafted onto the vine, they will also share the covenants and the curses. The New Covenant is given to those who are true believers in His Church. Here this part of the New covenant for the Church will not be fulfilled until the Rapture where the Dead will be raised to meet those who are alive in the clouds. There we will be reunited with their bodies and given new translated bodies before being taken on in to heaven. 1 Cor 15:50-55
Oh, you

Oh, you are a preterist, one who believes that because the nation of Jews killed Jesus, they forfeited the covenants God gave them and these covenants were then place on the gentiles...Just to rid oneself of any guilt, you fold the jews into the church under the gentiles....The JEWS are GODs (the Father's People) and I would be very careful about not following Gen 12:3. Notice very carefully in verse three,"I will Bless them" and "I will Curse him" God was speaking of Nations when He spoke about blessing "them" and He was speaking directly to the individual "him" when He spoke of curses. This means each person that curses them (especially by removing them from the rest of the Bible) will himself be cursed. be very careful. God showed pharaoh just how bad He could be when someone curse His people.

I'm not a preterist. You apparently have no reading comprehension skills at all, so it's pointless for me to try to explain things to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We are.

You are more naive and childish, as everyone can see.

And I dont think I've ever gotten a straight answer out of any of them.

A straight answer to what question exactly?

And they still want to bicker!

No, we don't. I shared your posts with marks, so he can now see that you are lying to him. You should repent of your lying.

You read that stuff? He said oh you have said mean things about post tribbers, and that is correct. A month ago? Ha! I learned their tactics and stopped playing their game. He cant bring anything up from roday, yesterday, this week, or this month, lol. Hey le's argue and bicker about something you said a month ago?!

That sounds like something a womn would say. Intent = Bickering. Come bicker with me they all said! Lol.

You're not fooling anyone with this nonsense. As if you completely changed your ways since a month ago. LOL. Sure, buddy. Keep lying if that's your choice, but just remember that lying is a sin and you have to answer to God for it.

You also are clearly a sexist and you need to repent of that as well. There are plenty of women who post here and you are constantly insulting women with your childish comments. Please grow up. If you ever do, then we can try again to talk about scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Bite me, you aint drawing me into your crap again. Have a nice day. Troll.

Thank you for once again revealing your true colors.

 

[WPM]

In my experience, pre-trib believers tend to be nicer, more loving people. Happier also!

Much love!

Read the evidence and stop being blinkered.

 

[marks]

We are. And I dont think I've ever gotten a straight answer out of any of them. And they still want to bicker! You read that stuff? He said oh you have said mean things about post tribbers, and that is correct. A month ago? Ha! I learned their tactics and stopped playing their game. He cant bring anything up from roday, yesterday, this week, or this month, lol. Hey le's argue and bicker about something you said a month ago?!

That sounds like something a womn would say. Intent = Bickering. Come bicker with me they all said! Lol.

I think there is a basic problem with vocabulary, because we hold views that cause us to use words differently then they do. For us, when the Bible says "Israel", we understand it to mean the descendants of Jacob, while they understand it to mean those who are in covenant with God of any nation.

So when we read prophecies concerning Israel, we believe them, they make sense, they fit with everything else. When they read prophecies concerning Israel, they apply them to gentiles, and suddenly they no longer make sense. So some say they are abrogated by Israel's disobedience, which is flatly refuted by Jeremiah 31, that God would not cast out the seed of Israel for anything they had done.

Or they say the prophecies have been fulfulled, nevermind all the parts that didn't actually happen. Or they say it's all spiritual, this means that, and that means this other thing, and no two of them have the same answer.

And that's just scracthing the surface, on just this one point, who is Israel? But that's enough to make a complete scramble of the rest of the Bible, to blur the line between God's chosen nation Israel, and all the other nations, the gentiles.

There's so much that doesn't fit, if you blur that line, so much that you have to not accept the plain sayings, virtually no other doctrine or teaching is unaffected.

If you believe the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24 includes the church, than whatever will you do with the gathering of the nations in Matthew 25, to be judged between righteous, who are welcomed into the kingdom, and the wicked, who are not?

Frequent answers given are that this is a parable, and we are all to be nice to each other. Although it's the same prophetic narrative as minutes earlier when Jesus foretold His coming in power and glory. Or they will answer it's the great white throne, in spite of the conflicts created. The GWT, a judgment of the dead, after heaven and earth fled away. The Sheep and Goats, a judgment of the nations, when Jesus comes to the earth, as prophesied by Joel, to happen in the valley of Jehosaphat, multitudes, multitudes, in the Valley of Decision.

It seems to me that there are a certain bunch of us who have this idea that the Bible is meant to be read and believed in it's plain sayings, because God wants us to know Him, and to trust Him. Those who approach Scripture as language to be understood, trusting God to make His Word know, and looking to the Scriptures to affirm a true understanding, that is, remaining subject to what is written, there's the heart of it, I'll say again,

Remaining subject to what is written, obedient to the written word of God,

those who do this will all tend to believe and say the same things, as we are all getting it directly from the text. The gathering of the elect is Israel being regathered to the promised land, the gathering of the nations is the gathering of the gentiles to be judged, both of these prophesied throughout Scripture, particularly that Israel would be exiled to all nations, then completely regathered in belief and into the new covenant.

And of course some have the temerity to make long and repeated tirades about how I'm rejecting Scripture and rebelling against God and all this sort of rot! I've heard it all, I think, all their childish accusations that I'm blind, or ignoring Scripture, that "I need to see it 'spiritually'" or this or that or the other. And none of that rubbish sort of talk is what I'm here for! Mature, respectful, even if we disagree! I mean seriously, we're all supposed to be Christians, is it too much to ask that we all act like it??

The truth is, my friend, we truly need to be wise in how we write, knowing that those who oppose will seize upon any opportunity to use our words against us, should we lower ourself even a little to that playing field. That's not where our goal post is.

I'm seeing what a long rant I've written, let it be enough!

Stay strong in the LORD, and the power of HIS might!!

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think there is a basic problem with vocabulary, because we hold views that cause us to use words differently then they do. For us, when the Bible says "Israel", we understand it to mean the descendants of Jacob, while they understand it to mean those who are in covenant with God of any nation.

Please don't try to talk for us. We believe there are two Israels. Sometimes when it references Israel, it is the nation of Israel (descendants of Jacob) and sometimes it's talking about the spiritual Israel of God. Paul contrasts the two here:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

The Israel highlighted in red here is Spiritual Israel or The Israel of God, as Paul calls it in Galatians 6:16. The Israel highlighted in blue is the nation of Israel (physical descendants of Abraham and Jacob).

So when we read prophecies concerning Israel, we believe them, they make sense, they fit with everything else. When they read prophecies concerning Israel, they apply them to gentiles, and suddenly they no longer make sense.

A completely false accusation. You are all very ignorant about New Testament scriptures like this one:

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Scripture teaches that there is one body. God has one people group that are His people, which includes both Jew and Gentiles who belong to Christ. Dispensationalists like yourself try to make it as though God has two people groups for Himself, which contradicts much New Testament scripture. The blood of Christ has brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one (Eph 2:11-22) and made them fellow citizens and fellow heirs of God's promises that dispensationalists try to say are only for Israel.

So some say they are abrogated by Israel's disobedience, which is flatly refuted by Jeremiah 31, that God would not cast out the seed of Israel for anything they had done.

Or they say the prophecies have been fulfulled, nevermind all the parts that didn't actually happen. Or they say it's all spiritual, this means that, and that means this other thing, and no two of them have the same answer.

And that's just scracthing the surface, on just this one point, who is Israel? But that's enough to make a complete scramble of the rest of the Bible, to blur the line between God's chosen nation Israel, and all the other nations, the gentiles.

It is dispensationalism that makes a complete mess of the Bible. It completely ignores the NT authors' understanding of OT scripture as if they somehow know better than the NT authors about what God's plans are.

There's so much that doesn't fit, if you blur that line, so much that you have to not accept the plain sayings, virtually no other doctrine or teaching is unaffected.

If you believe the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24 includes the church, than whatever will you do with the gathering of the nations in Matthew 25, to be judged between righteous, who are welcomed into the kingdom, and the wicked, who are not?

Matthew 25:31-46 is not a judgment of nations, but of individuals. Nations will not inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34,46). Nations will not be cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels for everlasting punishment (Matt 25:41,46). Individuals will.

Frequent answers given are that this is a parable, and we are all to be nice to each other.

Who gives that nonsensical answer? Are you purposely trying to misrepresent post-tribs here?

Although it's the same prophetic narrative as minutes earlier when Jesus foretold His coming in power and glory. Or they will answer it's the great white throne, in spite of the conflicts created. The GWT, a judgment of the dead, after heaven and earth fled away. The Sheep and Goats, a judgment of the nations, when Jesus comes to the earth, as prophesied by Joel, to happen in the valley of Jehosaphat, multitudes, multitudes, in the Valley of Decision.

It's not a judgment of nations for the reasons I stated earlier. You are not reading that passage carefully at all, apparently.

It seems to me that there are a certain bunch of us who have this idea that the Bible is meant to be read and believed in it's plain sayings, because God wants us to know Him, and to trust Him. Those who approach Scripture as language to be understood, trusting God to make His Word know, and looking to the Scriptures to affirm a true understanding, that is, remaining subject to what is written, there's the heart of it, I'll say again,

Remaining subject to what is written, obedient to the written word of God,

those who do this will all tend to believe and say the same things, as we are all getting it directly from the text.

You talk as if all of scripture is literal text. You know that's not true. So, I don't know what you're even talking about here. But, amilllennialism in particular is based on clear, literal scriptures. Such as John 5:28-29 which says that a singular hour is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected. Premils don't accept that and don't take it as written. There are other passages which explicitly teach that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:16-18, Eph 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6) and premils don't accept that. And so on.

The truth is, my friend, we truly need to be wise in how we write, knowing that those who oppose will seize upon any opportunity to use our words against us, should we lower ourself even a little to that playing field. That's not where our goal post is.

Please read the post where I showed all the nasty comments made towards post-trib by pre-tribs. A majority of which were made by the person you were talking to in this post. We post-tribs never made any comments like those (calling them "Satan" and questioning if they are possessed by evil spirits, etc.), so they lowered themselves to that level all on their own.

 

[MA2444]

Thank you for once again revealing your true colors.

Yeah, so? My old man was real good at dealing with people like you. I think it was two times you had a good day or something and actually made a resonable post. Not today though!

So maybe you do bring out my old man some here and there. What I write isnt anything like how I used to be. I never said I am perfect, just forgiven. So I'll have to confess that and, I never said I am a completely changed in the last month, but I have made progress and am a better man today than I was yesterday, but no I am not complete yet?

What is it, you demand perfection now? Not yet Mamn, so you can stop playing your Victim card now...Wah.

 

[MA2444]

So when we read prophecies concerning Israel, we believe them, they make sense, they fit with everything else. When they read prophecies concerning Israel, they apply them to gentiles,

I noticed that!

So some say they are abrogated by Israel's disobedience, which is flatly refuted by Jeremiah 31, that God would not cast out the seed of Israel for anything they had done.

Paul talked about it and absolutely refuted it also. But I didnt get any responses to that one I posted!

 

[marks]

It's not a judgment of nations for the reasons I stated earlier. You are not reading that passage carefully at all, apparently.

I can almost not believe you are hanging onto this . . . of course it will be individual people who are being separated right and left. I'm using Biblical language, I'm speaking in the terms the Bible speaks. I expect people to recognize that, maybe I'm mistaken to do so.

Anyway, I can't account for people's answers I've heard that you haven't, I'm not making it up. Lot's of people think the Sheep/Goats is parable, because they don't know what else to do with it. Many believe it's the Great White Throne for the same reason. I simply accept what it says, that when Jesus comes in glory, first, the chosen will be gathered, and then He'll take His throne, and the nations will be gathered.

Narrative prophecy.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You talk as if all of scripture is literal text.

Oh I do not! This is more of what I'm talking about, it's some empty rhetoric thrown up into the air for whatever reason people have when they do that. Sometimes it's obfuscation, or misdirection, or self-affirmation, or marginalization, I don't know your reasons.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, so? My old man was real good at dealing with people like you. I think it was two times you had a good day or something and actually made a resonable post. Not today though!

So maybe you do bring out my old man some here and there. What I write isnt anything like how I used to be. I never said I am perfect, just forgiven. So I'll have to confess that and, I never said I am a completely changed in the last month, but I have made progress and am a better man today than I was yesterday, but no I am not complete yet?

What is it, you demand perfection now? Not yet Mamn, so you can stop playing your Victim card now...Wah.

Doesn't look like you've changed at all. I'm done with you until you grow up. I have much better things to do than deal with your childishness. Take care.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh I do not! This is more of what I'm talking about, it's some empty rhetoric thrown up into the air for whatever reason people have when they do that. Sometimes it's obfuscation, or misdirection, or self-affirmation, or marginalization, I don't know your reasons.

Much love!

It's based on what you were saying. You act like we just spiritualize everything and that is not the case. So, if I'm exaggerating what you do with the text, I'm not doing that any more than what you do when you talk about our approach.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I can almost not believe you are hanging onto this . . . of course it will be individual people who are being separated right and left. I'm using Biblical language, I'm speaking in the terms the Bible speaks. I expect people to recognize that, maybe I'm mistaken to do so.

I go by what you actually say and you get offended. It's unbelievable. Don't blame me for your poor communication skills. You're going by what your English translation says, but our English translations aren't always perfect. You say yourself it's a judgment of individuals, so why does it say nations? It shouldn't. The Greek word "ethnos" has several definitions, one of which is "nations", but it has other definitions like "Gentiles", "heathen" and "people". So, it should have been translated as people since it's a judgment of individual people and not nations.

Anyway, I can't account for people's answers I've heard that you haven't, I'm not making it up. Lot's of people think the Sheep/Goats is parable, because they don't know what else to do with it.

A parable, of course, is a completely made up story. Obviously, other scripture talks about people inheriting the kingdom of God and other people being cast into the fire, so there's no basis whatsoever for thinking it's a parable. Those are probably post-trib premils who can't bring themselves to acknowledge that all people will be judged at the same time when Jesus returns instead of some being judged then and others being judged at a much later time.

Many believe it's the Great White Throne for the same reason.

No one believes it's the GWT judgment because it's a parable. That makes no sense. Amils believe it's not a parable because it lines up with what we literally believe which is that there is only one judgment day and all people will be judged at the same time.

I simply accept what it says, that when Jesus comes in glory, first, the chosen will be gathered, and then He'll take His throne, and the nations will be gathered.

If it's the nations being gathered, then it's the nations being judged, but it's not about a judgment of nations. The sheep are the chosen/saved. The goats represents those who are lost/unsaved. At that time the goats (Jesus calls them "cursed") get cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". We can see from Revelation 20:11-15 that this happens after the thousand years, but premils like yourself won't acknowledge that.

 

[ewq1938]

How would pointing out that no church was mentioned at all in the only verse given to support that 'the church' was still here in the last seven years?

The church is mentioned as being in the trib through the term candlestick. That proves pretrib to be wrong because the church should be gone but it isn't. The bible teaches posttrib not pretrib.

 

[dad]

The church is mentioned as being in the trib through the term candlestick.

The word candlestick is used. That is a word describing a vessel that gives light. In the case of the old testament believers, they were not the church. Yet a candlestick was used in the temple and elsewhere. A candlestick was used describing churches, A candlestick also is used for the believers in the final years. You insert the word church wherever you see the word candlestick and then act as if that has some great meaning and finality in proving 'the church' is in the tribulation. Get over it. That is lame

It proves nothing but that you are determined to insert the 'church' in every candlestick you see.

 

[ewq1938]

A candlestick was used describing churches, A candlestick also is used for the believers in the final years.

Yet you deny those same believers are in the trib despite the term candlestick being used. Rev outright tells us a candlestick is a church which means the Church of Christ is here for the trib and that isn't news because most Christians know that already.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Candlesticks are churches:


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

These two churches are part of the two witnesses. That makes them part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

 

[dad]

Yet you deny those same believers are in the trib despite the term candlestick being used.

No the term is used as I said, in the OT for the churches and for the trib saints. What is to deny?

Rev outright tells us a candlestick is a church which means the Church of Christ is here for the trib and that isn't news because most Christians know that already.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Nothing in there says church at all. Read it. The trib witnesses are likened to candlesticks.

Candlesticks are churches:


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The churches ALSO are liked to candlesticks, and the comparison is also used in the old testament before there was any churches. Time to face the fact you have NO case there at all with that line of attempted reasoning.