Is the first resurrection physical or spiritual?

[Johann]

The fact that Jesus physically showed Himself alive after resurrecting from the grave, was to prove that He had defeated death for any who live and die in Him. No others shall be bodily resurrected before the hour that is coming, when the last trumpet sounds, and time given this earth whereby mankind MUST be saved shall be no longer. That includes those saints in the first century who came out of their graves, without mention of them being resurrected.

I am referring to Matthew 27. 50-53 @rwb.

The concept of a spiritual body as mentioned in Scripture refers to the transformation that believers will undergo during the resurrection. It does not mean that the resurrected body is immaterial or ghost-like, but rather, it is a body suited for eternal life, free from corruption and mortality. This idea comes primarily from 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul describes the nature of the resurrection body.

Understanding the Spiritual Body in Light of Matthew 27:50-53
While Matthew 27:50-53 speaks of the saints' physical resurrection—using the term “bodies”—it does not directly address whether their bodies were transformed into spiritual bodies. However, examining other passages in the New Testament helps clarify what is meant by a spiritual body and how it might relate to these resurrected saints.

Key Scripture Passages on the Spiritual Body
1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (KJV)

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Paul contrasts the natural body (which is subject to decay) with the spiritual body (which is glorified and eternal). The term spiritual body here does not imply a non-physical body, but a transformed one that is immortal, glorified, and no longer subject to sin or death.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 (KJV)

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

This passage speaks about the transformation of believers at the resurrection. The corruptible (mortal bodies) will be changed into incorruptible, immortal bodies-what Paul describes as spiritual bodies. These are physical, but they have been glorified and perfected, no longer susceptible to decay.

Philippians 3:20-21 (KJV)

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

Paul further confirms that the transformation of believers will result in bodies like Jesus' glorious body, which was physical after His resurrection but with new, glorified characteristics.

Applying This to the Saints in Matthew 27
The saints who arose in Matthew 27:50-53 physically came out of their graves and appeared to many in Jerusalem. The text specifies “bodies,” which indicates that they were seen in a recognizable, physical form. However, the passage does not explicitly state whether these bodies were spiritual or glorified in the same way that is described for the final resurrection of believers in 1 Corinthians 15.

Possibility of a Temporary Resurrection: Some scholars suggest that these saints were temporarily resurrected with their natural bodies, as a sign of Jesus’ victory over death, but would later die again, like Lazarus (John 11:43-44). This temporary resurrection may not have involved a transformation into spiritual, glorified bodies.

Possibility of a Spiritual, Glorified Body: Others propose that since their resurrection occurred after Jesus’ own resurrection, which inaugurated the new era of resurrection life, these saints might have been raised with spiritual bodies that were imperishable, similar to what believers will experience at the final resurrection.


The text in Matthew 27 focuses on the physical nature of the saints' resurrection, but it does not provide detailed information about whether their bodies were transformed into spiritual bodies or whether it was a temporary physical resurrection like that of Lazarus. However, based on 1 Corinthians 15 and other New Testament passages, we understand that at the final resurrection, believers will be raised with spiritual bodies—incorruptible, glorified, and eternal.

So- while the saints in Matthew 27 were physically resurrected, whether they were raised with spiritual bodies remains open to interpretation. What is certain is that at the final resurrection, all believers will receive spiritual bodies, as Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15.

J.

 

[rwb]

Key Scripture Passages on the Spiritual Body
1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (KJV)

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Paul contrasts the natural body (which is subject to decay) with the spiritual body (which is glorified and eternal). The term spiritual body here does not imply a non-physical body, but a transformed one that is immortal, glorified, and no longer subject to sin or death.

Paul differentiates between that part of man that is of the earth/natural and that part of man in Christ that is of heaven/spiritual. Saints do not become resurrected spiritual body when they are physically resurrected. That's why Paul says, "there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body." Our natural body made alive through the spiritual body that comes back with Christ, will be raised in incorruption, and in honor & glory, and power through our eternal spirit. Because it is the spirit that gives our body life, the flesh profits nothing.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Mankind is made of outer body with inward spirit and together the two are complete living soul. Though the outer body of every man is destined to die, the spirit within man is made eternally alive through the Spirit of Christ in us. That's why Christ tells us that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. The spirit within man indwelt with the Holy Spirit returns to God who gave it still a living soul but without human form. The natural, physical body cannot continue to have natural life apart from the spirit within us. And the spirit within man shall never die if the Holy Spirit is in them.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, (body of flesh) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (spirit within mankind) and man became a living soul (complete living being).

Just as the Holy Spirit supernaturally makes alive (quickens) the spirit within man, so too our spiritual body that returns with Christ shall make alive our natural body made of the earth. The spiritual body of Christ is not transformed immortal & incorruptible. Because the spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ already possesses eternal/everlasting life. It is the physical body of believers that is transformed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. The spirit alive through the Holy Spirit is NOT subject to death, as the mortal, corruptible natural body is.

Because the spirit in man is transformed from death to life through the Holy Spirit in them when man is born again. And needs no more transformation. That's why Paul says that when our natural mortal body dies, as spiritual body we ascend to heaven having eternal life already. It's also why Paul longed to be out of his natural body of death so that he could become a spiritual body with Christ in heaven. He knew that there is gain in death of our natural body.

Philippians 1:20-24 (KJV) According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Possibility of a Temporary Resurrection: Some scholars suggest that these saints were temporarily resurrected with their natural bodies, as a sign of Jesus’ victory over death, but would later die again, like Lazarus (John 11:43-44). This temporary resurrection may not have involved a transformation into spiritual, glorified bodies.

Lazarus was not resurrected immortal and incorruptible. He was resurrected in the same body he died with and died again. As I've shown there shall be NO resurrection to immortality and incorruptibility in this age of time. I also showed why none would be bodily resurrected until the hour coming, when the last trumpet sounds, and time shall be no longer.

Others propose that since their resurrection occurred after Jesus’ own resurrection, which inaugurated the new era of resurrection life, these saints might have been raised with spiritual bodies that were imperishable, similar to what believers will experience at the final resurrection.

Yes, none could be resurrected immortal & incorruptible until after Christ made atonement for sin, and defeated death by His resurrection.

I believe the saints whose graves were opened were Old Covenant faithful saints, who were both martyred or died naturally while waiting for the promised Messiah to come and redeem them from the graves. Christ did this after His death before ascending to heaven He first descended into the place of the graves of the saints of Old (the bosom of Abraham) to set the captives free.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

So- while the saints in Matthew 27 were physically resurrected, whether they were raised with spiritual bodies remains open to interpretation. What is certain is that at the final resurrection, all believers will receive spiritual bodies, as Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15.

In light of what I have shown through the abundance of Scripture, it would be against what is written to interpret the passage as a physical resurrection of saints. The spirit within man of faith having eternal life through Christ does not die when our natural mortal body breathes its last. That's why John writes in Rev 20 of martyred souls alive in heaven after physical death. Because before they died, they lived and reigned with Christ during this time symbolized a thousand years. Death of their mortal flesh could not keep the spiritual body of faithful saints from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am referring to Matthew 27. 50-53 @rwb.

The concept of a spiritual body as mentioned in Scripture refers to the transformation that believers will undergo during the resurrection. It does not mean that the resurrected body is immaterial or ghost-like, but rather, it is a body suited for eternal life, free from corruption and mortality. This idea comes primarily from 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul describes the nature of the resurrection body.

Understanding the Spiritual Body in Light of Matthew 27:50-53
While Matthew 27:50-53 speaks of the saints' physical resurrection—using the term “bodies”—it does not directly address whether their bodies were transformed into spiritual bodies. However, examining other passages in the New Testament helps clarify what is meant by a spiritual body and how it might relate to these resurrected saints.

Key Scripture Passages on the Spiritual Body
1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (KJV)

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Paul contrasts the natural body (which is subject to decay) with the spiritual body (which is glorified and eternal). The term spiritual body here does not imply a non-physical body, but a transformed one that is immortal, glorified, and no longer subject to sin or death.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 (KJV)

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

This passage speaks about the transformation of believers at the resurrection. The corruptible (mortal bodies) will be changed into incorruptible, immortal bodies-what Paul describes as spiritual bodies. These are physical, but they have been glorified and perfected, no longer susceptible to decay.

Philippians 3:20-21 (KJV)

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

Paul further confirms that the transformation of believers will result in bodies like Jesus' glorious body, which was physical after His resurrection but with new, glorified characteristics.

Applying This to the Saints in Matthew 27
The saints who arose in Matthew 27:50-53 physically came out of their graves and appeared to many in Jerusalem. The text specifies “bodies,” which indicates that they were seen in a recognizable, physical form. However, the passage does not explicitly state whether these bodies were spiritual or glorified in the same way that is described for the final resurrection of believers in 1 Corinthians 15.

Possibility of a Temporary Resurrection: Some scholars suggest that these saints were temporarily resurrected with their natural bodies, as a sign of Jesus’ victory over death, but would later die again, like Lazarus (John 11:43-44). This temporary resurrection may not have involved a transformation into spiritual, glorified bodies.

Possibility of a Spiritual, Glorified Body: Others propose that since their resurrection occurred after Jesus’ own resurrection, which inaugurated the new era of resurrection life, these saints might have been raised with spiritual bodies that were imperishable, similar to what believers will experience at the final resurrection.


The text in Matthew 27 focuses on the physical nature of the saints' resurrection, but it does not provide detailed information about whether their bodies were transformed into spiritual bodies or whether it was a temporary physical resurrection like that of Lazarus. However, based on 1 Corinthians 15 and other New Testament passages, we understand that at the final resurrection, believers will be raised with spiritual bodies—incorruptible, glorified, and eternal.

So- while the saints in Matthew 27 were physically resurrected, whether they were raised with spiritual bodies remains open to interpretation. What is certain is that at the final resurrection, all believers will receive spiritual bodies, as Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15.

J.

If they were resurrected with immortal bodies then Paul would have mentioned that when he gave the order of bodily resurrections unto immortality, but he didn't. So, they must have died again later like Lazarus did.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[Johann]

If they were resurrected with immortal bodies then Paul would have mentioned that when he gave the order of bodily resurrections unto immortality, but he didn't. So, they must have died again later like Lazarus did.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Understanding the Spiritual Body in Light of Matthew 27:50-53
While Matthew 27:50-53 speaks of the saints' physical resurrection—using the term “bodies”—it does not directly address whether their bodies were transformed into spiritual bodies. However, examining other passages in the New Testament helps clarify what is meant by a spiritual body and how it might relate to these resurrected saints.
Mat 27:52 the tombs were opened, and many bodies of saints then sleeping in death rose
Mat 27:53 and left their tombs, and after His resurrection went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Mat 27:52 - καὶ The τὰ tombs μνημεῖα broke open, ἀνεῴχθησαν and καὶ [the] bodies σώματα of many πολλὰ - τῶν saints ἁγίων who had fallen asleep κεκοιμημένων were raised. ἠγέρθησαν·
Mat 27:53 - καὶ After μετὰ [Jesus’] αὐτοῦ - τὴν resurrection, ἔγερσιν when they had come ἐξελθόντες out of ἐκ the τῶν tombs, μνημείων they entered εἰσῆλθον . . . εἰς the τὴν holy ἁγίαν city πόλιν and καὶ appeared ἐνεφανίσθησαν to many [people]. πολλοῖς.
Mat 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints (God's people) who had fallen asleep [in death] were raised [to life];
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city (Jerusalem) and appeared to many people.

Mat 27:53 kaiG2532 CONJ exelthontesG1831 V-2AAP-NPM ekG1537 PREP tOnG3588 T-GPN mnEmeiOnG3419 N-GPN metaG3326 PREP tEnG3588 T-ASF egersinG1454 N-ASF autouG846 P-GSM eisElthonG1525 V-2AAI-3P eisG1519 PREP tEnG3588 T-ASF agianG40 A-ASF polinG4172 N-ASF kaiG2532 CONJ enephanisthEsanG1718 V-API-3P polloisG4183 A-DPM
Mat 27:54 oG3588 T-NSM deG1161 CONJ ekatontarchosG1543 N-NSM kaiG2532 CONJ oiG3588 T-NPM metG3326 PREP autouG846 P-GSM tErountesG5083 V-PAP-NPM tonG3588 T-ASM iEsounG2424 N-ASM idontesG3708 V-2AAP-NPM tonG3588 T-ASM seismonG4578 N-ASM kaiG2532 CONJ taG3588 T-APN | ginomenaG1096 V-PNP-APN | genomenaG1096 V-2ADP-APN | ephobEthEsanG5399 V-AOI-3P sphodraG4970 ADV legontesG3004 V-PAP-NPM alEthOsG230 ADV theouG2316 N-GSM uiosG5207 N-NSM EnG1510 V-IAI-3S outosG3778 D-NSM

Mat 27:51 Suddenly, the curtain [This curtain separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place.] in the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth shook, rocks were split open,
Mat 27:52 tombs were opened, and many [Lit. and the corpses of many] saints who had died [Lit. fallen asleep] were brought back to life.
Mat 27:53 After his resurrection, they came out of their tombs and went into the Holy City [I.e. Jerusalem] and appeared to many people.

Address this.

J.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Understanding the Spiritual Body in Light of Matthew 27:50-53
While Matthew 27:50-53 speaks of the saints' physical resurrection—using the term “bodies”—it does not directly address whether their bodies were transformed into spiritual bodies. However, examining other passages in the New Testament helps clarify what is meant by a spiritual body and how it might relate to these resurrected saints.
Mat 27:52 the tombs were opened, and many bodies of saints then sleeping in death rose
Mat 27:53 and left their tombs, and after His resurrection went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Mat 27:52 - καὶ The τὰ tombs μνημεῖα broke open, ἀνεῴχθησαν and καὶ [the] bodies σώματα of many πολλὰ - τῶν saints ἁγίων who had fallen asleep κεκοιμημένων were raised. ἠγέρθησαν·
Mat 27:53 - καὶ After μετὰ [Jesus’] αὐτοῦ - τὴν resurrection, ἔγερσιν when they had come ἐξελθόντες out of ἐκ the τῶν tombs, μνημείων they entered εἰσῆλθον . . . εἰς the τὴν holy ἁγίαν city πόλιν and καὶ appeared ἐνεφανίσθησαν to many [people]. πολλοῖς.
Mat 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints (God's people) who had fallen asleep [in death] were raised [to life];
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city (Jerusalem) and appeared to many people.

Mat 27:53 kaiG2532 CONJ exelthontesG1831 V-2AAP-NPM ekG1537 PREP tOnG3588 T-GPN mnEmeiOnG3419 N-GPN metaG3326 PREP tEnG3588 T-ASF egersinG1454 N-ASF autouG846 P-GSM eisElthonG1525 V-2AAI-3P eisG1519 PREP tEnG3588 T-ASF agianG40 A-ASF polinG4172 N-ASF kaiG2532 CONJ enephanisthEsanG1718 V-API-3P polloisG4183 A-DPM
Mat 27:54 oG3588 T-NSM deG1161 CONJ ekatontarchosG1543 N-NSM kaiG2532 CONJ oiG3588 T-NPM metG3326 PREP autouG846 P-GSM tErountesG5083 V-PAP-NPM tonG3588 T-ASM iEsounG2424 N-ASM idontesG3708 V-2AAP-NPM tonG3588 T-ASM seismonG4578 N-ASM kaiG2532 CONJ taG3588 T-APN | ginomenaG1096 V-PNP-APN | genomenaG1096 V-2ADP-APN | ephobEthEsanG5399 V-AOI-3P sphodraG4970 ADV legontesG3004 V-PAP-NPM alEthOsG230 ADV theouG2316 N-GSM uiosG5207 N-NSM EnG1510 V-IAI-3S outosG3778 D-NSM

Mat 27:51 Suddenly, the curtain [This curtain separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place.] in the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth shook, rocks were split open,
Mat 27:52 tombs were opened, and many [Lit. and the corpses of many] saints who had died [Lit. fallen asleep] were brought back to life.
Mat 27:53 After his resurrection, they came out of their tombs and went into the Holy City [I.e. Jerusalem] and appeared to many people.

Address this.

J.

I don't know what you're trying to say here. You're telling me to address this, but you didn't even address what I said in my post #263. So, can you address what I said first?

 

[Johann]

I don't know what you're trying to say here. You're telling me to address this, but you didn't even address what I said in my post #263. So, can you address what I said first?

If they were resurrected with immortal bodies then Paul would have mentioned that when he gave the order of bodily resurrections unto immortality, but he didn't. So, they must have died again later like Lazarus did.

So shall we discard this narrative as spurious?

The specific account from Matthew 27:51-53, where the dead saints are raised and appear to many in the holy city after Jesus' resurrection, is not directly mentioned by Paul in any of his writings. While Paul speaks extensively about the resurrection of Jesus and the future resurrection of believers, there is no direct reference to this particular event involving the dead saints rising in his epistles.

Paul focuses heavily on the theological significance of Jesus' resurrection and its implications for believers (such as in 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 6:4-5), but the raising of the dead saints in Matthew's account is unique to the Gospel of Matthew. This event is part of Matthew’s narrative to demonstrate the power and significance of Jesus' death and resurrection, connecting it to the broader theme of resurrection, but Paul's writings do not reference this specific event.

Paul’s main emphasis in his letters is on the resurrection of Christ as the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep (1 Corinthians 15:20) and the hope of resurrection for all believers, without focusing on the particular historical occurrence Matthew describes.

Waiting.

J.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So shall we discard this narrative as spurious?

Please don't ask me dumb questions. No scripture is spurious, of course. Did you think I might actually answer yes to that question?

The specific account from Matthew 27:51-53, where the dead saints are raised and appear to many in the holy city after Jesus' resurrection, is not directly mentioned by Paul in any of his writings. While Paul speaks extensively about the resurrection of Jesus and the future resurrection of believers, there is no direct reference to this particular event involving the dead saints rising in his epistles.

If it was a resurrection unto bodily immortality then he would have included it in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 where he gave the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality. I'm certain of that. So, those dead saints who were raised later died. It's as simple as that.

 

[RedFan]

Please don't ask me dumb questions. No scripture is spurious, of course. Did you think I might actually answer yes to that question?


If it was a resurrection unto bodily immortality then he would have included it in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 where he gave the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality. I'm certain of that. So, those dead saints who were raised later died. It's as simple as that.

I think your reference should have started two verses earlier. 1 Cor. 5:20 says that Christ was the first to be raised. If so, Matthew's account is spurious.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think your reference should have started two verses earlier. 1 Cor. 5:20 says that Christ was the first to be raised. If so, Matthew's account is spurious.

1 Corinthians 15:23 mentions that as well. It shows the first in order as being "Christ the firstfruits". I didn't think I needed to spell out what that means.

As for Matthew's account, do you know what the word "spurious" means?

It means this: not being what it purports to be; false or fake.

No scripture is spurious according to that definition. If you mean that Matthew 27:52-53 doesn't relate to 1 Cor 15:20-23 then I would agree because it wasn't a resurrection unto bodily immortality. If it was, then I am certain that Paul would have included that in the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality that he gave.

 

[RedFan]

1 Corinthians 15:23 mentions that as well. It shows the first in order as being "Christ the firstfruits". I didn't think I needed to spell out what that means.

As for Matthew's account, do you know what the word "spurious" means?

It means this: not being what it purports to be; false or fake.

No scripture is spurious according to that definition. If you mean that Matthew 27:52-53 doesn't relate to 1 Cor 15:20-23 then I would agree because it wasn't a resurrection unto bodily immortality. If it was, then I am certain that Paul would have included that in the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality that he gave.

No, I mean that dead saints coming to life when Christ breathed His last is fiction. Never happened. Not true. SPURIOUS. Yet another Matthean mistake. Like Matt. 27:9. Like Matt. 23:35.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, I mean that dead saints coming to life when Christ breathed His last is fiction. Never happened. Not true. SPURIOUS. Yet another Matthean mistake. Like Matt. 27:9. Like Matt. 23:35.

Nonsense. Who are you and where did you come from? You are apparently not a Christian since you don't accept what is taught in the gospel of Matthew, so why are you posting on this Christian forum?

 

[RedFan]

Nonsense. Who are you and where did you come from? You are apparently not a Christian since you don't accept what is taught in the gospel of Matthew, so why are you posting on this Christian forum?

I am a Christian. One can be a Christian and still recognize that the gospels were written by men, not by God. Inspired doesn't mean inerrant.

In Matt. 23:35 Matthew confuses two Zechariahs, the prophet Zechariah who was the son of Berechiah (Zech. 1:1) and another who was the son of Jehoiada (2 Chron. 24:20-22): Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar (Matt. 23:25 NRSV).

Clearly it was not Zechariah the prophet, son of Barachiah, who was killed in the court of the temple, but as 2 Chron. 24:20-22 plainly states, Zechariah the son of Jehoiada. Matthew was just mistaken. (Alternatively, I suppose you could insist that Matthew accurately quoted Jesus’ words, and it was Jesus who was mistaken. That opens a different can of worms.)

Matthew 27:9 mistakenly attributes the story of the purchase of the potters’ field to Jeremiah rather than Zechariah. So, was Matthew just having a senior moment when penning 27:9, thought he knew which OT writing contained the story, and got it wrong? Or maybe he was genuinely unsure and decided to take a wild-ass guess because he was too lazy to hoof it down to the Temple and check the scrolls? Regardless, can’t we agree that God didn’t put those words in his pen?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am a Christian. One can be a Christian and still recognize that the gospels were written by men, not by God. Inspired doesn't mean inerrant.

I have to question if you are. Inspired by God does mean inerrant. There is no basis whatsoever for saying that Matthew 27:52-53 is fiction. You are deceived. Being a Christian does not involve just cherry picking which scripture you accept while throwing the rest out.

In Matt. 23:35 Matthew confuses two Zechariahs, the prophet Zechariah who was the son of Berechiah (Zech. 1:1) and another who was the son of Jehoiada (2 Chron. 24:20-22): Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar (Matt. 23:25 NRSV).

Clearly it was not Zechariah the prophet, son of Barachiah, who was killed in the court of the temple, but as 2 Chron. 24:20-22 plainly states, Zechariah the son of Jehoiada. Matthew was just mistaken. (Alternatively, I suppose you could insist that Matthew accurately quoted Jesus’ words, and it was Jesus who was mistaken. That opens a different can of worms.)

This is foolishness to think that there is no explanation for this and just assume that Matthew, or even Jesus, was mistaken. If you think Matthew was mistaken about that, then you should not trust anything he wrote! You could conclude that he was mistaken about the death and resurrection of Christ. Since you don't think he was inspired by God, what's stopping you from drawing that conclusion?

Here is an explanation for this supposed mistake that I find quite viable: Contradictions: Was Jesus Wrong About Zechariah’s Father?

Matthew 27:9 mistakenly attributes the story of the purchase of the potters’ field to Jeremiah rather than Zechariah. So, was Matthew just having a senior moment when penning 27:9, thought he knew which OT writing contained the story, and got it wrong? Or maybe he was genuinely unsure and decided to take a wild-ass guess because he was too lazy to hoof it down to the Temple and check the scrolls? Regardless, can’t we agree that God didn’t put those words in his pen?

Speaking of too lazy. You are too lazy to do any research on this and just assume that Matthew was not inspired by God and made mistakes. How do you decide which parts of Matthew are true and which aren't? This is ridiculous! Here is a viable explanation for the supposed mistake in Matthew 27:9... Contradictions: Mixed Prophets

 

[RedFan]

I have to question if you are. Inspired by God does mean inerrant. There is no basis whatsoever for saying that Matthew 27:52-53 is fiction. You are deceived. Being a Christian does not involve just cherry picking which scripture you accept while throwing the rest out.


This is foolishness to think that there is no explanation for this and just assume that Matthew, or even Jesus, was mistaken. If you think Matthew was mistaken about that, then you should not trust anything He wrote! You could conclude that he was mistaken about the death and resurrection of Christ.

Here is an explanation for this supposed mistake that I find quite viable: Contradictions: Was Jesus Wrong About Zechariah’s Father?


Speaking of too lazy. You are too lazy to do any research on this and just assume that Matthew was not inspired by God and made mistakes. How do you decide which parts of Matthew are true and which aren't? This is ridiculous! Here is a viable explanation for the supposed mistake in Matthew 27:9... Contradictions: Mixed Prophets

Was Matthew mistaken in tracing Joseph’s lineage from David through Solomon (Matt. 1:6)? Luke 3:31 says he was!

Was Matthew mistaken in saying that the centurion who wanted Jesus to heal his servant approached Jesus in person (Matthew 8:5-13)? Luke 7:2-10 says he sent an intermediary.

Was Matthew mistaken in saying there were two demoniacs whose demons were sent into a herd of swine (Matt 8:28)? Mark 5:2 and Luke 8:27 say there was only one.

Was Matthew mistaken in saying that Jesus allowed Mary Magdalene to touch him after his resurrection (Matt. 28:9)? John 20:17 says He told her not to.

Was Matthew mistaken in saying that both thieves crucified on either side of Jesus reviled him (Matt. 27:44)? Luke 23:39-42 says only one of them did so, and the other did quite the opposite.

I can do this all night long. But I know where its going. You remind me of Vern Poythress. In attempting a harmonization of Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:2-10, he writes “We have the accounts in Mathew and Luke, which are inspired by God. They are what God says and are therefore trustworthy. That is the conviction we have and the basis on which we work.” Poythress, Inerrancy and the Gospels: A God-Centered Approach to the Challenges of Harmonization (Crossway 2012) at 21.

That's you in a nutshell. Respectfully, I must dissent. This approach seems to me to be reasoning the matter backwards. Inerrancy should be a conclusion from the evidence, not an axiom by which to assess the evidence.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Was Matthew mistaken in tracing Joseph’s lineage from David through Solomon (Matt. 1:6)? Luke 3:31 says he was!

Was Matthew mistaken in saying that the centurion who wanted Jesus to heal his servant approached Jesus in person (Matthew 8:5-13)? Luke 7:2-10 says he sent an intermediary.

Was Matthew mistaken in saying there were two demoniacs whose demons were sent into a herd of swine (Matt 8:28)? Mark 5:2 and Luke 8:27 say there was only one.

Was Matthew mistaken in saying that Jesus allowed Mary Magdalene to touch him after his resurrection (Matt. 28:9)? John 20:17 says He told her not to.

Was Matthew mistaken in saying that both thieves crucified on either side of Jesus reviled him (Matt. 27:44)? Luke 23:39-42 says only one of them did so, and the other did quite the opposite.

I can do this all night long. But I know where its going. You remind me of Vern Poythress. In attempting a harmonization of Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:2-10, he writes “We have the accounts in Mathew and Luke, which are inspired by God. They are what God says and are therefore trustworthy. That is the conviction we have and the basis on which we work.” Poythress, Inerrancy and the Gospels: A God-Centered Approach to the Challenges of Harmonization (Crossway 2012) at 21.

That's you in a nutshell. Respectfully, I must dissent. This approach seems to me to be reasoning the matter backwards. Inerrancy should be a conclusion from the evidence, not an axiom by which to assess the evidence.

So, you don't even respond to what I said about those other verses? That shows that you just believe what you want to believe. Matthew was not mistaken about anything because he was inspired by God! You have no discernment! You are here to serve Satan and I'm not falling for it. Don't blame Matthew for that or for your laziness in doing research on this.

 

[RedFan]

So, you don't even respond to what I said about those other verses? That shows that you just believe what you want to believe. Matthew was not mistaken about anything because he was inspired by God! You have no discernment! You are here to serve Satan and I'm not falling for it. Don't blame Matthew for that or for your laziness in doing research on this.

I can respond to them. They are stretches! I will concede that with sufficient presumptions and mental machinations indulging the improbable, virtually all of these facial inconsistencies can be harmonized. My question is, why indulge them? The only reason I can see to do so is in order to shore up one’s initial presumption of inerrancy.

Ask an inerrantist whether Jesus sent his apostles out with sandals and staff (Mark 6:8-9) or without them (Matt. 10:10), and the answer will come back “The gospels must have been describing two different missions.” Ask where the “must have” comes from, and the answer ultimately comes back, in words or substance, that the consistency of Scripture is a given.

Even for the inerrantist, it is not crucial to know whether the disciples were sent out with or without sandals for a particular mission. They don’t care which instruction was given, any more than they care whether the law requires driving on the left or on the right side of the road. But they care deeply that only one instruction was given, for otherwise their world would be as chaotic as a world in which the law allowed driving on both sides of the road. If the texts of two gospels give two different answers to any question―even to the issue of apostolic footwear―they care deeply that one of them be explained away.

It’s a slippery slope thing with them. It’s a Luke 16:10 thing. Most Christians would not be scandalized in the least by one of two gospel authors getting a theologically-irrelevant detail wrong. But the inerrantist demands literal historical truth on every detail, however minor, because for him, there aren’t two gospel authors. There is only one, and He cannot err.

I do not see the point in downplaying the human element like this. I expect theological truth from my Bible, not factual accuracy on minute historical details. And I am not scandalized by inaccuracies as to the latter. You are. Fine. We can respectfully disagree.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I can respond to them. They are stretches!

But, you won't. And they are not stretches at all!

I will concede that with sufficient presumptions and mental machinations indulging the improbable, virtually all of these facial inconsistencies can be harmonized. My question is, why indulge them? The only reason I can see to do so is in order to shore up one’s initial presumption of inerrancy.

You have no idea of what you're talking about. You clearly rely only on your limited mind and not on the Holy Spirit. You are deceived and lacking in faith. God doesn't make mistakes and the gospel of Matthew is inspired by God. You are letting Satan lead you astray.

Ask an inerrantist whether Jesus sent his apostles out with sandals and staff (Mark 6:8-9) or without them (Matt. 10:10), and the answer will come back “The gospels must have been describing two different missions.” Ask where the “must have” comes from, and the answer ultimately comes back, in words or substance, that the consistency of Scripture is a given.

Even for the inerrantist, it is not crucial to know whether the disciples were sent out with or without sandals for a particular mission. They don’t care which instruction was given, any more than they care whether the law requires driving on the left or on the right side of the road. But they care deeply that only one instruction was given, for otherwise their world would be as chaotic as a world in which the law allowed driving on both sides of the road. If the texts of two gospels give two different answers to any question―even to the issue of apostolic footwear―they care deeply that one of them be explained away.

It’s a slippery slope thing with them. It’s a Luke 16:10 thing. Most Christians would not be scandalized in the least by one of two gospel authors getting a theologically-irrelevant detail wrong. But the inerrantist demands literal historical truth on every detail, however minor, because for him, there aren’t two gospel authors. There is only one, and He cannot err.

I do not see the point in downplaying the human element like this. I expect theological truth from my Bible, not factual accuracy on minute historical details. And I am not scandalized by inaccuracies as to the latter. You are. Fine. We can respectfully disagree.

I have no respect for someone who allows Satan to use them as a puppet like this and denies the inerrancy of the word of God. Why do you even believe any of the gospel of Matthew is true since you don't believe Matthew is trustworthy?

 

[RedFan]

But, you won't. And they are not stretches at all!


You have no idea of what you're talking about. You clearly rely only on your limited mind and not on the Holy Spirit. You are deceived and lacking in faith. God doesn't make mistakes and the gospel of Matthew is inspired by God. You are letting Satan lead you astray.


I have no respect for someone who allows Satan to use them as a puppet like this and denies the inerrancy of the word of God. Why do you even believe any of the gospel of Matthew is true since you don't believe Matthew is trustworthy?

It would take quite a while to explain why I say

I expect theological truth from my Bible, not factual accuracy on minute historical details.

-- and how I know the difference. But since you believe I am Satan's puppet, why would you care to hear it?

 

[rwb]

No, I mean that dead saints coming to life when Christ breathed His last is fiction. Never happened. Not true. SPURIOUS. Yet another Matthean mistake. Like Matt. 27:9. Like Matt. 23:35.

It appears you don't believe what is written because there is no PHYSICAL evidence to prove a literal physical resurrection! The account according to Matthew is NOT a mistake, but neither is the account to be understood in a physical sense. A believer should not need physical proof to believe saints of Christ remain alive after physical death. Unless you believe Christ was also mistaken when He says, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." Christ spoke these words to the sister of Lazarus who had just physically died. But Christ resurrected him physically from the dead that we might know that He has power over death, and that mortal death cannot take away the life He gives us that is ETERNAL. That life is obviously NOT physical!

Since mankind is composed of both body and spirit to be a living soul, the only part of saints that possesses eternal/everlasting life that can NEVER die is a spiritual, not physical body that ascends to heaven through the power of the Holy Spirit in them after our mortal flesh dies. In heaven the saints who were the physical body of Christ while alive on this earth, become the spiritual body of Christ in heaven. Just as Paul tells us in 1Cor 15 we become after our mortal body is dead "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

As I've already proven in this discussion saints of Christ were not resurrected bodily from the graves after Christ' resurrection. Neither does the passage speak of them being resurrected to life again. It merely tells us, "Many bodies of the saints which slept arose" without mention of their physical mortal bodies being resurrected to life again.

Since there is no physical proof these risen saints went into earthly Jerusalem in immortal bodies of flesh & blood, you must claim the Bible cannot be without error to satisfy worldly/physical thinking. There has been NO bodily resurrection to immortal flesh, except Jesus! Since Christ came and proved through His resurrection, He has power over death, He opened up the gates of heaven that His precious body of saints might also be with Him, where He is, FOREVER.

Until the hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds that time given this earth whereby mankind MUST be saved, shall be no longer, the saints of Christ shall live with Christ in heaven a spiritual body. Then, and only then there shall be a physical resurrection of every saint who has died, raised again immortal & incorruptible, fit for life with Christ on the new earth throughout eternity! With them the saints who are still alive at His coming again, shall also be raised up (not resurrected) and changed from mortal to immortal flesh to meet the Lord in the air. Then after the wrath of God has been poured upon this earth, we shall all come down with Christ to the new earth where there will be no more death, nor sorrow, for nothing impure shall enter there.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

you view the bitter water as the curse of the law, then it would make sense. The curse of the law came in by two ways. The first was to swearing an oath to God ( like a wedding vow) to keep the whole law.

The second part of the curse came when they transgressed the law, which is sin. That is like the wife being unfaithful.

Agree. Never said I don’t view the bitter water as a curse. I only pointed out to me the good news is in Numbers 5 as well. That was my point when I asked you if you see Christ in Numbers 5. For example where He said He provided an escape …the way…where it is said “and they shall not escape” …yet there is good news.

Yes …transgressed the law…the wife being unfaithful. See, that is why I said Numbers 5 became beautiful I think …in that if you fail in any part then you transgress the whole law…being unfaithful. That is the whole message of “the good news” as you pointed out below: > Christ came to redeem. As He said “I come not to destroy men but to save them”

So Christ came to redeem his wife from that curse of the law…

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:

We see those similitudes below…

That is why I suggested Numbers 5 is key to Romans 7. It does make sense to me. revealing what exactly God has prepared unto: freedom from sin unto death. Romans 8:18-21 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
-that is good news. “Of Him who has subjected the same in Hope”

Where just as Numbers 5 and Romans 7 reveals …through the body of Christ, the Work prepared of God …it’s by that foundation which God laid that no other man can lay, take away or add to …by the body of Jesus Christ —God—has redeems us from the curse.

We see those similitudes below…

Numbers 5:19
And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:

Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

^exactly. That is Great News yes? “If thou have NOT gone with another instead of your husband, be free from this bitter water that causes the curse.” “But if her husband be dead…she is free from that law….” Though she be married “joined another” she is no adulteress! —-I do think it connects to those married are made one flesh…but those joined to Christ are made One Spirit. There is a significant difference I think. Two becoming one flesh …divorce, adultery, all kinds of trouble comes from this union. Go ask a therapist and this joining of two made one flesh comes with two bring loads of baggage to that union. BUT Joined to Christ and made One Spirit…made of His heavenly flesh (there are different kinds of flesh), joined in One Spirit…removes the baggage for if any be in Christ “He is a New Creature”

What law is she dead too? If not the law of jealousies (heavy laden with sin) of her husband (bond to a curse..for sin is present?) where she will fail …never pleasing…cursed.
Matthew 11:27-30 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. [28] Come unto me, all you that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.