There is only one true church

[BreadOfLife]

Most back then were apart of the 144,000--You will find out Paul's warning is to the Great crowd of other sheep( John 10:16) who are not of that fold , that they are unworthy( 1Cor 11:27) to partake, and its a major sin to do so. The blind guides tell all to partake.
Those same blind guides never teach a single word about the difference of the little flock and great crowd, because they know 0 about it.

Your perversion that only a select few of Christ’s followers are invited to partake in His Body and Blood is a complete heresy and is NOWHERE taught in Scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, I wisely believe that each Book of Scripture does convey Truth -- regardless of the order in which it is read.

I agree.

I agree that the author of Second Peter refers to Paul's writings as Scripture --and I agree that Paul doesn't.

And it doesn’t matter if Paul doesn’t call his writings “Scripture”. The Holy Spirit is the Author – NOT Paul.

The fact remains that Paul’s writings ARE Scripture – and the Holy spirit meant what He said about Oral Tradition being equal to Scripture in 2 Thess. 2:15.

 

[RedFan]

And it doesn’t matter if Paul doesn’t call his writings “Scripture”. The Holy Spirit is the Author – NOT Paul.

Paul wrote to Timothy. Not the Holy Spirit. Paul. Look at the very first word in the Letter.

If the Holy Spirit wanted to communicate with Timothy directly, He could have dispensed with the need for a letter written in Paul's hand.

 

[Corlove]

Good point. It boils down to authority. True authority is always given, not taken. And Christ clearly gave His authority to govern and sanctify to Peter and his successors, the Popes, and in a general way to the Apostles and their successors.

Jesus didn't give authority to anyoe to found a separate Church apart from the one He founded, and which is the only one that can trace itself back to the time of Jesus.

Sounds like someone is trying to say everyone is going to Hell but the Catholics.

 

[Keiw]

Your perversion that only a select few of Christ’s followers are invited to partake in His Body and Blood is a complete heresy and is NOWHERE taught in Scripture.

Luke 22:29-30--A covenant made to those who will sit on thrones)))=the little flock= 144,000= the anointed bride of Christ.

 

[LuxMundy]

Sounds like someone is trying to say everyone is going to Hell but the Catholics.

No, just because Jesus elected and trained the first twelve men to be His successors in His Christian (Catholic) Church body and carry on His teachings, sacraments, and traditions, while remaining the Head, and that succession has continued over two-thousand years under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, it doesn't mean anyone who isn't a member of that body is going to Hell solely for that reason. See post #74 here.

 

[Brakelite]

The Jewish religion is cut off( Matt 23:38) thus-spiritual Israel= Any Jewish person leaving Judaism and joining Jesus' 1 religion and gentiles who join that 1religion and are taught TRUTH.= spiritual Israel which just means-Gods chosen.

So they are metaphorical Jews making up a literal number. Prophecy doesn't work that way. If a prophecy has a symbolic aspect to it at all, we can't make another aspect literal.
For example. Revelation 12. What is symbolic and what is literal? And why?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Paul wrote to Timothy. Not the Holy Spirit. Paul. Look at the very first word in the Letter.

If the Holy Spirit wanted to communicate with Timothy directly, He could have dispensed with the need for a letter written in Paul's hand.

God Himself disagrees with you . . .

2 Tim. 3:16
ALL SCRIPTURE is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

The Holy Spirit is the Author of Scripture - NOT the scribes who wrote it down.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Luke 22:29-30--A covenant made to those who will sit on thrones)))=the little flock= 144,000= the anointed bride of Christ.

And NOWHERE does Jesus indicate that the rest of us are "forbidden" from parttaking in the Eucharist.

Face it - you math doesn't work. Paul instructs the entire Church at Corinth to receive the Eucharist (1 Cor. 11:17-34). That was only ONE Church out of MANY.

The Church at Ephesus, Antioch, Collosae, Thessalonica, Philippi, Smyrna, Sardis, Laodicea, etc. That doesn't include all of the Churches that were planted by the other Apostles.
This would FAR exceed 144,000.

EPIC fail . . .

 

[RedFan]

God Himself disagrees with you . . .

2 Tim. 3:16
ALL SCRIPTURE is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

The Holy Spirit is the Author of Scripture - NOT the scribes who wrote it down.

We've been through this already, my friend. In 2 Tim. 3:16 the word graphē is used to describe the OT only. Let's not go back to this again please, we've beaten it to death. Yes, all Scripture both OT and NT are God-breathed. No, 2 Tim 3:16 doesn't support calling the NT God-breathed.

As to the Holy Spirit being the Author, do you suppose there would be any contradictions in the Bible if that were true? Obviously there would be none if Holy Spirit were the author. Yet there are many! How do you explain them?

Did Holy Spirit write both Matt. 8:5-13 and Luke 7:2-10?
Did Holy Spirit write both Mark 6:8-9 and Matt. 10:10?
Did Holy Spirit write both Mark 2:26 and 1 Samuel 21:1-6?
Did Holy Spirit write both Matt. 8:5-13 and Luke 7:2-10?
Did Holy Spirit write both Matt. 8:28 and Luke 8:27?
Did Holy Spirit write both Mark 9:1-2 and Luke 9:28?
Did Holy Spirit write both 1 Samuel 31:4 and 2 Samuel 21:12?
Did Holy Spirit write both 1 Chronicles 2:13-15 and 1 Samuel 16:10-11?
Did Holy Spirit write both 2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2?
Did Holy Spirit write both Matt. 1:6 and Luke 3:31?
Did Holy Spirit write both Matt. 28:9 and John 20:17?

 

[LuxMundy]

In 2 Tim. 3:16 the word graphē is used to describe the OT only. [...]

It isn't true that 2 Tim. 3:16 refers to the Old Testament only. See below.

Forms of the word
Dictionary: γραφή, -ῆς, ἡ

Greek transliteration: graphē
Simplified transliteration: graphe

Numbers
Strong's number: 1124
GK Number: 1210

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 50
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: n-1b

Gloss: (s.) a passage of Scripture; (pl.) the collective whole of the Scriptures; holy, authoritative collection of writings

Definition: a writing;, in NT the Holy Scriptures, the Jewish Scriptures, or Books of the Old Testament, Mt. 21:42; Jn. 5:39, et al.; by synec. doctrines, declarations, oracles, or promises contained in the sacred books, Mt. 22:29; Mk. 12:24, et al.; spc. a prophecy, Mt. 26:54; Mk. 14:49; Lk. 4:21; 24:27, 32; with the addition of προφητική, Rom. 16:26; of τῶν προφητῶν, Mt. 26:56

"πᾶσα (All) γραφὴ (Scripture is) θεόπνευστος (God-breathed) καὶ (and) ὠφέλιμος (profitable) πρὸς (for) διδασκαλίαν (instruction), πρὸς (for) ἐλεγμόν (conviction), πρὸς (for) ἐπανόρθωσιν (correction), πρὸς ([and] for) παιδείαν (training) τὴν (-) ἐν (in) δικαιοσύνῃ (righteousness) [...]" (2. Tim. 3:16)

 

[Keiw]

So they are metaphorical Jews making up a literal number. Prophecy doesn't work that way. If a prophecy has a symbolic aspect to it at all, we can't make another aspect literal.
For example. Revelation 12. What is symbolic and what is literal? And why?

No domestic such as yourself can make that assumption and think its truth. Only through these-Matt 24:45 is truth revealed on matters of God.

 

[Keiw]

And NOWHERE does Jesus indicate that the rest of us are "forbidden" from parttaking in the Eucharist.

Face it - you math doesn't work. Paul instructs the entire Church at Corinth to receive the Eucharist (1 Cor. 11:17-34). That was only ONE Church out of MANY.

The Church at Ephesus, Antioch, Collosae, Thessalonica, Philippi, Smyrna, Sardis, Laodicea, etc. That doesn't include all of the Churches that were planted by the other Apostles.
This would FAR exceed 144,000.

EPIC fail . . .

What don't you understand--a covenant made to those who will sit on thrones?
Paul warned that some are unworthy to partake--The only other ones who belong to Jesus are the great crowd( Rev 7:9) no man can number, they are the other sheep( John 10:16) who are (not of that fold)--that fold= the little flock, they are numbered, its they who will sit on thrones. The great crowd will not sit on thrones.
Its a major sin to partake by the great crowd. 1Cor 11:27-29-- Let a man approve himself after scrutiny)= proving he is part of the little flock.

 

[RedFan]

It isn't true that 2 Tim. 3:16 refers to the Old Testament only. See below.



"πᾶσα (Every) γραφὴ (Scripture is) θεόπνευστος (God-breathed) καὶ (and) ὠφέλιμος (profitable) πρὸς (for) διδασκαλίαν (instruction), πρὸς (for) ἐλεγμόν (conviction), πρὸς (for) ἐπανόρθωσιν (correction), πρὸς ([and] for) παιδείαν (training) τὴν (-) ἐν (in) δικαιοσύνῃ (righteousness) [...]." (2. Tim. 3:16)

Of course it's true! Not because of the definition of γραφὴ which is obviously broad enough to cover the NT. But because THAT WAS NOT PAUL'S MEANING when he wrote to Timothy. It couldn't have been! Most of the writings which ended up in that wonderful fourth century compilation you have on your shelf as the NT today HAD NOT YET BEEN WRITTEN when Paul penned his letter to Timothy. Those that did predate the letter were Paul's own writings -- and he would hardly have referenced those as "Scripture."

 

[Johann]

No, 2 Tim 3:16 doesn't support calling the NT God-breathed.

All Scripture (πᾶσα γραφὴ)
Better, every Scripture, that is, every passage of Scripture. Scripture as a whole is as αἱ γραφαί or αἱ γραφαί ἅγιαι. Ἱερά is never used with γραφὴ. Γραφὴ is the single passage, usually defined by this, or that, or the, or which saith.
Is given by inspiration of God (θεόπνευστος)
N.T.o. olxx. From θεὸς God and πνεῖν to breathe. God-breathed. The word tells us nothing of the peculiar character or limits of inspiration beyond the fact that it proceeds from God. In construction omit is, and rend. as attributive of γραφὴ every divinely-inspired Scripture.
And is profitable (καὶ ὠφέλιμος)
According to A.V., καὶ and is merely the copula between two predicates of γραφὴ. It is divinely inspired and is profitable. According to the interpretation given above, καὶ has the force of also. Every divinely-inspired Scripture is, besides being so inspired and for that reason, also profitable, etc. Ὡφέλιμος profitable, Pasto. See on 1Ti_4:8.
For doctrine (πρὸς διδασκαλίαν)
Better, teaching. Comp. to make thee wise, 2Ti_3:15.
Reproof (ἐλεγμόν)
Better, conviction. N.T.o. oClass. Comparatively frequent in lxx, mostly in the sense of rebuke: sometimes curse, punishment. See Ps. of Solomon 10:1, but the reading is disputed with ἐλέγχῳ. See on the verb ἐλέγχειν, Joh_3:20.
Correction (ἐπανόρθωσιν)
N.T.o. Twice in lxx. Restoring to an upright state (ὀρθός erect); setting right.
Instruction (παιδείαν)
Better, chastisement or discipline. See on Eph_6:4. In lxx mostly correction or discipline, sometimes admonition. Specially of God's chastisement by means of sorrow and evil.
Vincent.

2Ti 3:16 All πᾶσα Scripture [is] γραφὴ God-breathed θεόπνευστος and καὶ is useful ὠφέλιμος for πρὸς instruction, διδασκαλίαν, for πρὸς conviction, ἐλεγμόν, for πρὸς correction, ἐπανόρθωσιν, [and] for πρὸς training παιδείαν in ἐν - τὴν righteousness, δικαιοσύνῃ,

Yes it does.

J.

 

[RedFan]

All Scripture (πᾶσα γραφὴ)
Better, every Scripture, that is, every passage of Scripture. Scripture as a whole is as αἱ γραφαί or αἱ γραφαί ἅγιαι. Ἱερά is never used with γραφὴ. Γραφὴ is the single passage, usually defined by this, or that, or the, or which saith.
Is given by inspiration of God (θεόπνευστος)
N.T.o. olxx. From θεὸς God and πνεῖν to breathe. God-breathed. The word tells us nothing of the peculiar character or limits of inspiration beyond the fact that it proceeds from God. In construction omit is, and rend. as attributive of γραφὴ every divinely-inspired Scripture.
And is profitable (καὶ ὠφέλιμος)
According to A.V., καὶ and is merely the copula between two predicates of γραφὴ. It is divinely inspired and is profitable. According to the interpretation given above, καὶ has the force of also. Every divinely-inspired Scripture is, besides being so inspired and for that reason, also profitable, etc. Ὡφέλιμος profitable, Pasto. See on 1Ti_4:8.
For doctrine (πρὸς διδασκαλίαν)
Better, teaching. Comp. to make thee wise, 2Ti_3:15.
Reproof (ἐλεγμόν)
Better, conviction. N.T.o. oClass. Comparatively frequent in lxx, mostly in the sense of rebuke: sometimes curse, punishment. See Ps. of Solomon 10:1, but the reading is disputed with ἐλέγχῳ. See on the verb ἐλέγχειν, Joh_3:20.
Correction (ἐπανόρθωσιν)
N.T.o. Twice in lxx. Restoring to an upright state (ὀρθός erect); setting right.
Instruction (παιδείαν)
Better, chastisement or discipline. See on Eph_6:4. In lxx mostly correction or discipline, sometimes admonition. Specially of God's chastisement by means of sorrow and evil.
Vincent.

2Ti 3:16 All πᾶσα Scripture [is] γραφὴ God-breathed θεόπνευστος and καὶ is useful ὠφέλιμος for πρὸς instruction, διδασκαλίαν, for πρὸς conviction, ἐλεγμόν, for πρὸς correction, ἐπανόρθωσιν, [and] for πρὸς training παιδείαν in ἐν - τὴν righteousness, δικαιοσύνῃ,

Yes it does.

J.

Forest for the trees, my friend. I have said many times that all Scripture, NT and OT, is God-breathed. That's not under discussion here. What's under discussion is, "what writings did Paul intend when he wrote 2 Tim. 3:16?" And the answer is, the OT only. He didn't say to Timothy, "All Scripture, present and future, written and yet to be written, which happens to make it into the canon three centuries from now is God-breathed." That's not what Timothy would come away with, or was intended to come away with. We can see this clearly reading the prior verse 15:

"You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives."

Verse 16 is informed by verse 15. The Scriptures that Timothy was taught "from childhood" are what is being referred to in both verses.

 

[BreadOfLife]

What don't you understand--a covenant made to those who will sit on thrones?
Paul warned that some are unworthy to partake--The only other ones who belong to Jesus are the great crowd( Rev 7:9) no man can number, they are the other sheep( John 10:16) who are (not of that fold)--that fold= the little flock, they are numbered, its they who will sit on thrones. The great crowd will not sit on thrones.
Its a major sin to partake by the great crowd. 1Cor 11:27-29-- Let a man approve himself after scrutiny)= proving he is part of the little flock.

Paul is warning the Corinthians not to receive the Eucharist unworthily – dui to their SINS. It had nothing to do with the bizarre idea that only a FEW of them were allowed to receive. He is telling them to make sure they don’t have unconfessed or unrepented sin.

Sin doesn’t just “disappear”. It must ne repented of with proper contrition. That’s why the Early Church in the 1st century was instructed to confess their sins before receiving the Eucharist:

Excerpt from the Didache (The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles)
The breaking of bread and Thanksgiving [Eucharist] is on Sunday, "after you have confessed your transgressions, that your Sacrifice may be pure", and those who are at discord must agree, for this is the clean oblation prophesied by Malachias, i, 11, 14. "Ordain therefore for yourselves bishops and deacons, worthy of the Lord . . . for they also minister to you the ministry of the prophets and teachers". Notice that it is for the sacrifice that bishops and deacons are to be ordained.

Neither 1 Cor. 11 or the Didaches ever mention "Great crowd" vs. "Little flock" . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

We've been through this already, my friend. In 2 Tim. 3:16 the word graphē is used to describe the OT only. Let's not go back to this again please, we've beaten it to death. Yes, all Scripture both OT and NT are God-breathed. No, 2 Tim 3:16 doesn't support calling the NT God-breathed.

As to the Holy Spirit being the Author, do you suppose there would be any contradictions in the Bible if that were true? Obviously there would be none if Holy Spirit were the author. Yet there are many! How do you explain them?

Did Holy Spirit write both Matt. 8:5-13 and Luke 7:2-10?
Did Holy Spirit write both Mark 6:8-9 and Matt. 10:10?
Did Holy Spirit write both Mark 2:26 and 1 Samuel 21:1-6?
Did Holy Spirit write both Matt. 8:5-13 and Luke 7:2-10?
Did Holy Spirit write both Matt. 8:28 and Luke 8:27?
Did Holy Spirit write both Mark 9:1-2 and Luke 9:28?
Did Holy Spirit write both 1 Samuel 31:4 and 2 Samuel 21:12?
Did Holy Spirit write both 1 Chronicles 2:13-15 and 1 Samuel 16:10-11?
Did Holy Spirit write both 2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2?
Did Holy Spirit write both Matt. 1:6 and Luke 3:31?
Did Holy Spirit write both Matt. 28:9 and John 20:17?

It is completely evident that you don’t have the wisdom to discern Scripture – or even the basic logic.
These aren’t “contradictions”, so much as they are different vantage points of the truth.

If you were to question 10 eyewitnesses to a car accident – you would get 10 different VERSIONS – but the SAME story. This is also true for ANY historical account – including Scripture.

Learn how to properly divide the Word of God.
HE is the Author - and He doesn't make mistakes . . .

 

[Keiw]

Paul is warning the Corinthians not to receive the Eucharist unworthily – dui to their SINS. It had nothing to do with the bizarre idea that only a FEW of them were allowed to receive. He is telling them to make sure they don’t have unconfessed or unrepented sin.

Sin doesn’t just “disappear”. It must ne repented of with proper contrition. That’s why the Early Church in the 1st century was instructed to confess their sins before receiving the Eucharist:

Excerpt from the Didache (The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles)
The breaking of bread and Thanksgiving [Eucharist] is on Sunday, "after you have confessed your transgressions, that your Sacrifice may be pure", and those who are at discord must agree, for this is the clean oblation prophesied by Malachias, i, 11, 14. "Ordain therefore for yourselves bishops and deacons, worthy of the Lord . . . for they also minister to you the ministry of the prophets and teachers". Notice that it is for the sacrifice that bishops and deacons are to be ordained.

Neither 1 Cor. 11 or the Didaches ever mention "Great crowd" vs. "Little flock" . . .

Paul is warning the Corinthians not to receive the Eucharist unworthily – dui to their SINS. It had nothing to do with the bizarre idea that only a FEW of them were allowed to receive. He is telling them to make sure they don’t have unconfessed or unrepented sin.

Sin doesn’t just “disappear”. It must ne repented of with proper contrition. That’s why the Early Church in the 1st century was instructed to confess their sins before receiving the Eucharist:

Excerpt from the Didache (The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles)
The breaking of bread and Thanksgiving [Eucharist] is on Sunday, "after you have confessed your transgressions, that your Sacrifice may be pure", and those who are at discord must agree, for this is the clean oblation prophesied by Malachias, i, 11, 14. "Ordain therefore for yourselves bishops and deacons, worthy of the Lord . . . for they also minister to you the ministry of the prophets and teachers". Notice that it is for the sacrifice that bishops and deacons are to be ordained.

Neither 1 Cor. 11 or the Didaches ever mention "Great crowd" vs. "Little flock" . . .

Its bible truth-Luke 22:29-30--A covenant made to those who will sit on thrones--end of story.

 

[RedFan]

If you were to question 10 eyewitnesses to a car accident – you would get 10 different VERSIONS – but the SAME story. This is also true for ANY historical account – including Scripture.

Comparatively few books of the Bible were written by eyewitnesses -- but YOU say it doesn't matter because all of it was written by the Holy Spirit, who was an eyewitness to everything! So how can you use this analogy? There should be ONE version if there is One author!