Is the first resurrection physical or spiritual?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,655
2,624
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You don't think that the seventh trumpet is the third woe? It doesn't say that explicitly, I suppose, but it's clear that's the case when you see that the 3 woes correspond to the final 3 trumpets.
How is the return of Jesus a woe?
You can see here that the fourth angel sounds and then it says "Woe, woe, woe" in relation to the final three trumpets. So, the first woe corresponds to the fifth trumpet, second woe to the sixth and third woe to the seventh.
Yes, I see your point. But doesn't this cause us to wonder if there might be more to the third trumpet than the return of Christ?
Premils barely even acknowledge the existence of the spiritual kingdom, if at all.
I don't know about that. Amil, on the other hand can't see or won't acknowledge a physical kingdom.
My goodness, are you really this ignorant of what Amils believe?
Yes, I know what Amil believes. Perhaps you don't?
We do not say that is describing the spiritual kingdom we're in now. We believe Jesus will return at the seventh trumpet in the future, so that is describing when the kingdom of God will be fully manifested on the (renewed, new) earth.
Imagine that. You are a Premil. That is what Premils believe. The kingdom of God will become fully manifested in a Physical kingdom.
Me neither. How in the world could you think that I believe the seventh trumpet already sounded? How can we have a discussion regarding premil vs. amil if you don't have any understanding of amil? That makes it impossible.
You seem to have a hard time understanding what other people write. Don't place that on us.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
10,558
8,404
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
She is clean if she did not commit adultery. I suppose you could say the seed is a type/ shadow of Christ being formed in the wife.
You suppose? I hated Number 5 because as a woman/female I read it as a weird ritual. I remember telling my youngest daughter how disturbing it was and how it made me question “God, Who are you?” here is a woman brought and made to drink of the bitter water. I saw it as a literal woman. Just like how it used to be stoning. As Stephen was stoned. Can you see today women caught in suspected adultery being made to drink from the priest bitter water which goes in and causes the curse where if she be guilty of adultery her belly will swell and her thigh rot? But then one night late I saw Christ in it and that passage changed. I cried that night because something so terrify and demeaning become beautiful. What cup do you think Jesus Christ drank of? Why did He drink of the cup? Why did He ask them…can you drink of the cup that I drink of? Then told them they would drink of the same cup. There is only One way a woman caught in adultery ….where if you fail in any part of the law, you fail in all of it. Where her belly swells and her thigh rots, I see her giving birth to sin unto death. There is only One way the woman suspected of adultery …where if she fails in any part of the law of jealousies of her husband, being bound to the law of jealousy of Her husband ….the only way NOT to Fail is by and through Christ. Like Paul said to the Corinthians, I hope you see we are not as those who fail. The woman who is free, not called an adulterous woman is what Paul said: New Jerusalem above is free, we are of the free woman and not the bond woman. How do we claim to drink and the curse has been removed, causing no more harm, being pronounced innocent, clean, made New, and Free? We speak of the seed “Christ” why would you suppose it is a type of Christ is the seed?

Even in all the end time doctrines it is said …those belonging to Christ are no more of an adulterous woman. But God is coming back to destroy the adulterous woman or “those not of Christ” …well there are two women in Numbers five. The one who drinks and brings forth sin unto death. And the free woman who conceives and brings for seed …obedience unto Righteousness. <see that “obedience” there is only One way she is found “obedient unto Righteousness”;called not more an adulterous Woman. Which do say you are of?

I can’t convince you. But if all you see is the adulterous woman and her punishment. Then where is the woman in Numbers five who is clean, conceives and bears Fruit(seed)???. I think you’ve missed the heart of Numbers 5 where I’ll say it again. To me it goes hand-in-hand which Roman’s 7 which reveals how she is called no more an adulterous woman being delivered from the curse by the body of Christ. Numbers 5 in no longer satanic …Christ is all over it. Even becoming the High Priest who
Hebrews 10:21-27 And having an high priest over the house of God; [22] Let us draw near (to drink? Or bear unto whom?) with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. [23] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) [24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: [25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching. [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
^
do you see the woman is brought before the Priest? Read Numbers 5 again, and Put Christ in the place of the High Priest and see what happens.

Numbers 5 reveals who the two women are…New Testament says the two women are: two covenants. The Old Testament and the New Testament. Jerusalem that now is, in bondage with her children. And New Jerusalem above which is free. We look for a New City from above, prepared of God? Same with body…knowing if this house is destroyed, we have a house from God which cannot be destroyed.


End times not only “He despised Moses’ law died with mercy under two or three witnesses …sorer punishment having counted the blood of the covenant—wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing…
Hebrews 10:28-29 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Christ is all over Numbers 5. numbers 5 is the good news. The path to freedom from the curse of the bitter Water. Even being made like unto “the earthen vessel” yet without sin.
 
Last edited:

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
10,558
8,404
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
End times not only “He despised Moses’ law died with mercy under two or three witnesses …sorer punishment having counted the blood of the covenant—wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing…
Hebrews 10:28-29 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Having counted the blood of the covenant —-wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing …reminds me of Hebrews 12:23-25 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel. [25] See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven:
Who speaks from heaven? If not the firstborn—the mediator of the New Covenant, the blood of the firstborn —wherewith he was sanctified —which is not (called) an unholy thing.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,902
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

I missed this reply earlier. Yes, "at the last day"! Last means there will be no more days to follow, otherwise it would not be the last day! Why do you continue to argue there will be more given this earth AFTER the last day? That makes ZERO sense!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,719
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well you say the first resurrection is past, and I still talk to you.:gd
You talk to me, but don't fellowship with me like you did with him even if we agree on something, which we have a few times.

I say that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection because scripture says that. Do you deny that it says that?

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

But, I do NOT say that people having part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) is all in the past as you falsely try to claim. It's an ongoing thing each day as people spiritually have part in Christ's resurrection by way of going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,719
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I missed this reply earlier. Yes, "at the last day"! Last means there will be no more days to follow, otherwise it would not be the last day! Why do you continue to argue there will be more given this earth AFTER the last day? That makes ZERO sense!
Exactly. To premils the last day is not really the last day in any sense. Similar to how the last trumpet is not actually the last trumpet in any sense to pretribs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,902
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What Amils are trying to do is redefine what “the first resurrection“ means in Rev. 20:4-6.

These verses below are not about Jesus being resurrected almost 2,000 years ago. It is about the dead in Christ being resurrected at the last day.

There you go again trying to define doctrine you have little if any understanding of! Amillennialism doesn't redefine "the first resurrection"! We understand it through the Spirit of Christ within. Christ tells us when He came the Kingdom of God had also come. Premillennialism looks for that which cannot be seen with physical sight and tries to find a Kingdom they can physically enter. You ignore the FACT that the Kingdom of God Christ says has come is NOT a physical Kingdom NOW in this age of TIME.

The Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom, and none can see (know) or enter into the spiritual Kingdom of God unless they have been born again! Ignorance keeps pushing for a literal physical Kingdom of God on this earth without understanding Christ opened the doors to the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven when He made atonement for sin and RESURRECTED physically immortal from the dead. Anyone with the smallest understanding of the Word of God can understand, if they want to, that the way to be part of the first resurrection is through the resurrection life of Christ alone! Because it is only through Him that man might overcome the second death!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,719
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Last time I checked Rev. 20:4-6 is in the NT.
Amil doctrine reminds me someone who described a place to another, who in turn described a place to another, neither having ever been there themselves, they had only read about it in a book.
Total nonsense. Our doctrine is based on clear, straightforward scripture. John 5:28-29 says a singular hour is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected, but you change it to two hours coming when the dead are resurrected. And 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 shows the order of resurrections as being Christ's first and next in order those who are Christ's at His coming and you ignore that. What about anyone who would die during the supposed future thousand years? Where did Paul mention their resurrection? Nowhere. But, you'd rather ignore passages like those than accept what they teach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,902
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The first resurrection was the resurrection of the martyrs, and it was physical. That was the whole point - the ones who gave up their physical lives, received a new physical life - fair recompense.

Then why aren't they physically alive today? When the physical body is resurrected to life again it will be immortal and incorruptible, and more importantly, NONE shall be physically resurrected until the time coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,719
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There you go again trying to define doctrine you have little if any understanding of! Amillennialism doesn't redefine "the first resurrection"! We understand it through the Spirit of Christ within. Christ tells us when He came the Kingdom of God had also come. Premillennialism looks for that which cannot be seen with physical sight and tries to find a Kingdom they can physically enter. You ignore the FACT that the Kingdom of God Christ says has come is NOT a physical Kingdom NOW in this age of TIME.

The Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom, and none can see (know) or enter into the spiritual Kingdom of God unless they have been born again! Ignorance keeps pushing for a literal physical Kingdom of God on this earth without understanding Christ opened the doors to the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven when He made atonement for sin and RESURRECTED physically immortal from the dead. Anyone with the smallest understanding of the Word of God can understand, if they want to, that the way to be part of the first resurrection is through the resurrection life of Christ alone! Because it is only through Him that man might overcome the second death!
Exactly. Premils do not want to even consider what is required to avoid the second death. Revelation 20:6 says that one must have part in the first resurrection in order for the second death to have no power over them. Is a bodily resurrection required to avoid the second death? No! In that case those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord would not avoid the second death. Instead, what you described is what is required to avoid and overcome the second death, which is to spiritually have part in the first resurrection by way of being born again and going from being dead in sins to alive in Christ.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,719
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How is the return of Jesus a woe?
Is this a serious question? Do you actually read scripture at all or not? I think not.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

It seems to me that the return of Jesus will be a woe for "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ", wouldn't you agree? For you to even ask that question shows just how little understanding of scripture you really have.

Yes, I see your point. But doesn't this cause us to wonder if there might be more to the third trumpet than the return of Christ?
No. I think it would only cause someone who doesn't want to accept what scripture teaches to wonder about that.

I don't know about that. Amil, on the other hand can't see or won't acknowledge a physical kingdom.
Why lie like this? Explain to me how you think it helps your case to lie? I'd really like to know. Amil does NOT deny a physical kingdom. What we claim is that Jesus will deliver the spiritual kingdom that He is King over now to the Father when He returns and then it will be a physical kingdom on the new earth for eternity. We will dwell there with immortal bodies at that point.

Yes, I know what Amil believes. Perhaps you don't?
You clearly do not as evidenced by the fact that you badly misrepresented it above.

Imagine that. You are a Premil. That is what Premils believe. The kingdom of God will become fully manifested in a Physical kingdom.

You seem to have a hard time understanding what other people write. Don't place that on us.
You are the one who understands nothing that other people write, including the authors of the Bible, not me.
 

Stewardofthemystery

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2024
1,412
317
83
62
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I missed this reply earlier. Yes, "at the last day"! Last means there will be no more days to follow, otherwise it would not be the last day!
Again it is the last day of this world/age.

Luke 20:34-36

King James Version

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.= the first resurrection

Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Luke 18:30
Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,719
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Again it is the last day of this world/age.

Luke 20:34-36​

King James Version​

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.= the first resurrection

Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Luke 18:30
Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Yes, the last day of this temporal age. The age to come is eternal, according to Jesus who said it will result in "eternal life" and "life everlasting". But, not according to you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

Stewardofthemystery

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2024
1,412
317
83
62
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You suppose? I hated Number 5 because as a woman/female I read it as a weird ritual.
I always saw The husband figure who was jealous for his wife as a similitude of God, being He is a jealous God for His wife.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Notice what Paul says below….

2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
10,558
8,404
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I always saw The husband figure who was jealous for his wife as a similitude of God, being He is a jealous God for His wife.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Notice what Paul says below….

2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Who is the husband …I still who is the husband that has to die by the body of Christ that you be made free? If God is espoused you to “one husband” then who’s the other? For example the woman by the well was told of Christ to call her husband. We know her answer. And Jesus Christ answer concerning her husbands…
 

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
1,443
924
113
45
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then why aren't they physically alive today? When the physical body is resurrected to life again it will be immortal and incorruptible, and more importantly, NONE shall be physically resurrected until the time coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer.
Why? I don't know why. But the fact of it happening is recorded right there in Matthew:

Matthew 27
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
 

Stewardofthemystery

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2024
1,412
317
83
62
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Who is the husband …I still who is the husband that has to die by the body of Christ that you be made free? If God is espoused you to “one husband” then who’s the other? For example the woman by the well was told of Christ to call her husband. We know her answer. And Jesus Christ answer concerning her husbands…
If you view the bitter water as the curse of the law, then it would make sense. The curse of the law came in by two ways. The first was to swearing an oath to God ( like a wedding vow) to keep the whole law.

The second part of the curse came when they transgressed the law, which is sin. That is like the wife being unfaithful.

So Christ came to redeem his wife from that curse of the law…

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:

We see those similitudes below…

Numbers 5:19
And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:

Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

In that way it makes sense.