The "Yeah, but..." school of doctrine - Bible versus Bible

[St. SteVen]

I think this might be the doctrine the Old Testament spends the most time developing... Israel is elect, special, chosen by God.

Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

I don't think it's a great leap of logic to say that... it means the same thing in the New Testament that it does in the Old Testament.

I tend to link the Elect to salvation and predestination. (which raises some issues on the flip side of that coin)

But if the Elect is seen as a group with a purpose, that takes the edge off.

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[Johann]

Good questions.

The Holy Spirit is a person. He distributes manifestations just as he determines.
"Gifts" are not to be "discovered", the Spirit distributes them as needed.

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit,
and he distributes them to each one,
just as he determines. - 1 Corinthians 12:11 NIV

The "gifts" are manifestations of the Holy Spirit for ministry to the body.
I have a theory that in a small church, the manifestations have to be distributed more lavishly on fewer individuals.
Since all the manifestations are needed to make the church complete.

I also believe that no one is locked into a "gift". There is no hole left in ministry if they leave the church.
Churches aren't waiting for the right "gift" to arrive to cover areas with missing "gifts".
The Spirit distributes and redistributes as he wishes. Assuming the church understands how this works.

I imagine that some churches have missing body parts because of a poor understanding of manifestations.

[

I take it you are not a cessationist?


1Co 13:1 Love, the More Excellent Way
¶ If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a ringing brass gong or a clashing cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and I know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And if I parcel out all my possessions, and if I hand over my body in order that I will be burned, [Some manuscripts have “in order that I may boast”] but do not have love, it benefits me nothing.

1Co 13:4 ¶ Love is patient, love is kind, love is not jealous, it does not boast, it does not become conceited,
1Co 13:5 it does not behave dishonorably, it is not selfish [Literally “does not seek the things of itself”], it does not become angry, it does not keep a record of wrongs,
1Co 13:6 it does not rejoice at unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth,
1Co 13:7 bears all things , believes all things , hopes all things , endures all things .

1Co 13:8 ¶ Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will pass away. If there are tongues, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will pass away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1Co 13:10 but whenever the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside the things of a child.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a mirror indirectly [Literally “in an indirect image”], but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know completely, just as I have also been completely known.
1Co 13:13 And now these three things remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Without true love, we are nothing. No amount of good works or self-effort will count, even if I attend church five times a day.

Love is the greatest—without it, I am nothing.

It surpasses all spiritual gifts: healings, miracles, prophecy, apostleship, speaking in tongues, and the empty routine of "churchianity."

Correct brother?

J.

 

[Johann]

I tend to link the Elect to salvation and predestination. (which raises some issues on the flip side of that coin)

But if the Elect is seen as a group with a purpose, that takes the edge off.

[

Election is also for service-don't forget that.

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

I take it you are not a cessationist?

Correct. I am a Continuationist.
The church I was raised in was Cessationist.
That's why I left.

Love is the greatest—without it, I am nothing.

It surpasses all spiritual gifts: healings, miracles, prophecy, apostleship, speaking in tongues, and the empty routine of "churchianity."

Correct brother?

Correct. The "gifts" (manifestations) of the Holy Spirit are not an end in themselves.
The driving force is love.

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[Wick Stick]

I tend to link the Elect to salvation and predestination. (which raises some issues on the flip side of that coin)

But if the Elect is seen as a group with a purpose, that takes the edge off.

Well, the Elect should be linked to salvation. That's part of God's promise to them:

So all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.' As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. Romans 11:26-28

I don't think there's any differentiation to be made between (a) the Elect and (b) the True Israel of God.

Where Paul seems to make a difference (such as here in Romans 11), there are actually two things called Israel. One is national Israel - a mixed group of true and false Israelites. The other is what I'm calling true Israel - a mixed group of believing Jews and believing Gentiles who have been adopted into Israel. And this leads him to make some confusing statements, like this one:

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Romans 9:6

 

[Lambano]

I think this might be the doctrine the Old Testament spends the most time developing... Israel is elect, special, chosen by God.

This is what I think "election" is in the OT. From Deuteronomy 7:6:

6 “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

I think this passage defines to the Jewish people to this day who they are. Also, ever notice the places in the Torah where God threatens to "cut off" someone from His people? Like this:

Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14)

When your identity is defined by being part of a group, being "cut off" from the group is like death.

 

[Johann]

This is what I think "election" is in the OT. From Deuteronomy 7:6:

6 “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

I think this passage defines to the Jewish people to this day who they are. Also, ever notice the places in the Torah where God threatens to "cut off" someone from His people? Like this:

Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14)

When your identity is defined by being of a group, being "cut off" from the group is like death.

 

[Lambano]

I don't think it's a great leap of logic to say that... it means the same thing in the New Testament that it does in the Old Testament.

I remember brushing against this in a Bible study back in my church in Florida. I opined that "Election" as God's people in the New Testament was individual, in contrast to being corporate. My pastor, who was leading the study, disagreed. The concept is that "the Elect" are God's people. I don't recall the exact reasoning, but it kinda looks something like this: Jesus Christ, the Anointed Jewish One, is "the Elect One from the Foundation of the World". Our "election" is not in ourselves; it is in Christ. We are God's people insomuch as we are in and remain in Christ.

On my to-do reading list is Robert Shank's Elect in the Son, which expands on this in more detail. (Assuming I got in right above.)

 

[Johann]

I remember brushing against this in a Bible study back in my church in Florida. I opined that "Election" as God's people in the New Testament was individual, in contrast to being corporate. My pastor, who was leading the study, disagreed. I don't recall the exact reasoning, but it kinda looks something like this: Jesus Christ, the Anointed Jewish One, is "the Elect One from the Foundation of the World". Our "election" is not in ourselves; it is in Christ. We are God's people insomuch as we are in and remain in Christ.

On my to-do reading list is Robert Shank's Elect in the Son, which expands on this in more detail. (Assuming I got in right above.)

Individual and corporate.

Isaiah 42:1 (NKJV)
“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.”

Luke 9:35 (NKJV)
“And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!’”

1 Peter 2:6 (NKJV)
“Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
‘Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.’”

Matthew 12:18 (NKJV)
“Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen,
My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased!
I will put My Spirit upon Him,
And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.”

J.

 

[Lambano]

Individual and corporate.

Agreed, but our identity as God's people cannot be separated from the person of Christ.

Notice that in the OT verses you quoted, God's Servant Israel is represented as a single entity. This is probably just a common literary device, but in the NT, that Servant becomes a true single entity, Christ Himself.

 

[Wick Stick]

This is what I think "election" is in the OT. From Deuteronomy 7:6:

6 “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

I think this passage defines to the Jewish people to this day who they are. Also, ever notice the places in the Torah where God threatens to "cut off" someone from His people? Like this:

Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14)

When your identity is defined by being part of a group, being "cut off" from the group is like death.

The Bible even describes it as "death." In the prophets, Israel is said to be "dry bones" and the prophesy is for resurrection. And there's the whole 'let the dead bury their dead' thing.

 

[St. SteVen]

Should election, or the Elect, be connected to predestination, or is that not right?

[

 

[Johann]

Agreed, but our identity as God's people cannot be separated from the person of Christ.

Notice that in the OT verses you quoted, God's Servant Israel is represented as a single entity. This is probably just a common literary device, but in the NT, that Servant becomes a true single entity, Christ Himself.

Depending on context.

Corporate Election
Corporate election refers to God choosing a group of people, typically the people of Israel or the Church, for His purposes.

Israel as God's Chosen People:
Deuteronomy 7:6 (NKJV) – “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.”
This shows that Israel, as a nation, was elected by God to be His chosen people.

The Church as God's Elect:
Ephesians 1:4-5 (NKJV) – “...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will...”
In this case, the "us" refers to the Church as a collective body that is elected by God for salvation through Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV)
“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.”
Here, the "chosen generation" refers to the community of believers, reinforcing the corporate nature of election.

2. Individual Election
Individual election focuses on God's choice of specific individuals for salvation, service, or particular roles.

Romans 8:29-30 (NKJV)
“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son... Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
This passage emphasizes God's foreknowledge and predestination of individuals, suggesting that election can also apply on a personal level.

John 15:16 (NKJV)
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain...”
Jesus is speaking to His disciples, highlighting individual election for a specific purpose of service and fruit-bearing.


Agree?
J.

 

[Lambano]

Should election, or the Elect, be connected to predestination, or is that not right?

[

@Johann picked some of the key verses (and that's an excellent summary), but I'm going to change to NASB:

Ephesians 1:4-5 (NASB) – “..just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

In these verses, our chosen-ness and our predestination for adoption is "In Him", i.e. corporate and contingent on being in Christ.

29 Romans 8:29-30 (NASB) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

In these verses, our individual predestination to conformation to the image of Christ and our calling and our justification and our glorification is based on God's foreknowledge. The theologians will debate on what "foreknowledge" means - our foreseen response to Christ, God's pre-planning...

 

[Wick Stick]

Should election, or the Elect, be connected to predestination, or is that not right?

Predestination... is a mountain that the church has made out of a molehill. Shall we examine the molehill? Paul mentions predestination 5 total times in 3 different chapters.

Ephesians 1 contains two of those, and it's a doxology whose purpose is to give glory to God because He has carried out the plan that He made from the beginning (predestination!). It doesn't mention the elect, but it does use the words "we" and "us" a lot, and specifically that they (we?) were predestined to adoption. There are elements there that can be read as talking about individuals, but there are also elements that suggest the group - those we-s and us-es, and the necessity that they be adopted into a larger body.

1Corinthians 2 says that God had a plan from the beginning of the world (predestination!) that was unknown in the past but has now been revealed. It doesn't actually say what that plan is, though. Paul intentionally leaves it as a "mystery." The gist is of it is "I'd like to initiate you into these deeper mysteries, but you aren't mature enough." Oof.

And then there's Romans 8. A whole topic... or book... or library... might be written about it (and has been). The following verses seem to be the main battleground of the debate:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

Should one read the verses that come before and after (context? on an internet forum?!?) the text before is about adoption, and the text afterwards mentions The Elect™. Depending on your version of the Bible (and perhaps the theological prejudices of its translators), it may or may not be obvious that The Elect™ is a plural word, and being used as another name for the whole of the church. (I mentioned that last bit because I have my own theological prejudices, lol).

Anyhow, if we were to read the chapter fully instead of microscoping on the few disputed verses, we'd find it is strictly hortatory. Paul's purpose is to encourage the Roman church. Evil cannot prosper against them because they ARE the elect, and... well in Paul's own words...

If God is for us, who can be against us?

edit: Sorry for long post - I may be guilty of building that mountain from that molehill myself. :E

 

[St. SteVen]

Predestination... is a mountain that the church has made out of a molehill. Shall we examine the molehill? Paul mentions predestination 5 total times in 3 different chapters.

This would make a great topic. IMHO

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[Wick Stick]

This would make a great topic. IMHO

I think... this would make a terrible topic. It would devolve into a fight between the Calvinists and Arminians pretty quickly, thereby causing more of the problem that it criticizes.

 

[St. SteVen]

I think... this would make a terrible topic. It would devolve into a fight between the Calvinists and Arminians pretty quickly, thereby causing more of the problem that it criticizes.

The perfect storm. - LOL

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[St. SteVen]

New topic:

Ripped and Torn - What pages have you torn out of your Bible?

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[Lambano]

I think... this would make a terrible topic. It would devolve into a fight between the Calvinists and Arminians pretty quickly, thereby causing more of the problem that it criticizes.

6 When Paul noticed that some were Sadducees and others were Pharisees, he called out in the council, ‘Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. I am on trial concerning the hope of the resurrection of the dead.’ 7 When he said this, a dissension began between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, or angel, or spirit; but the Pharisees acknowledge all three.) 9 Then a great clamour arose, and certain scribes of the Pharisees’ group stood up and contended, ‘We find nothing wrong with this man. What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?’ 10 When the dissension became violent, the tribune, fearing that they would tear Paul to pieces, ordered the soldiers to go down, take him by force, and bring him into the barracks. (Acts 23:6-10)

@St. SteVen, you wouldn't do that, would you?

I once saw a T-shirt that said, "I was with Paul in Jerusalem. It was a riot!"