The "Yeah, but..." school of doctrine - Bible versus Bible

[Episkopos]

Indeed, and following your example of respectful discussion (and staying on topic out of respect to the OP), I have rewritten the final paragraph of my post.

I must confess that I am reacting emotionally to other users (not Arthur81) who have recently used the Reformed understanding of "election" as a pretext for mistreating those whom they perceive as "not-elect". "If God hates them, why shouldn't I?" But I need to keep my emotions under control.

Election is NOT about salvation...but about being chosen for service and selflessness. A chosen person can be rejected by God...as in Go away, I never knew you.

The bible cites being called, chosen AND faithful.

Many are called, few are chosen. And many of those chosen are not faithful.

Being chosen is into the higher walk...the race of faith...unto glory (not just salvation)

 

[Johann]

Years ago, a Catholic brother challenged me to read through one of their catechisms. I burned out somewhere around article #1500; God help me, I tried. I noticed that they supported each precept with a biblical quote, yet the hermeneutical principle seemed to favor an interpretation that supported the power of the Church institution. (Which is a mean thing to say, but it's what I observed.)

When the same process forms mutually incompatible theological systems, should we not reexamine the underlying assumptions of the process itself? That is what @St. SteVen has been doing.

Like I have said, we have over 45,000 denominations spanning the globe-

There are more than 45,000 denominations globally. Followers of Jesus span the globe. But the global body of more than 2 billion Christians is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on.

Regarding your final point, I would say yes-when a process yields mutually incompatible theological systems, it’s absolutely worth reexamining the underlying assumptions. If interpretations consistently diverge, especially in ways that appear to serve institutional agendas or certain theological biases, then it raises important questions about how the process of exegesis and hermeneutics is being applied. Are we approaching the text objectively, or are we influenced by preconceived notions or denominational frameworks?

Reevaluating the methods by which we interpret scripture-whether it be historical context, grammatical analysis, or the weight we place on tradition-might help ensure that we are striving for truth rather than reinforcing divisions. It can be a humbling yet necessary step in pursuit of theological clarity.

It’s important to acknowledge that we all have biases, and you might disagree with me on this point. However, unless we assume that we have a complete understanding of scripture, it’s evident that there are persistent disagreements when it comes to the core tenets of our faith and doctrines.

Clearly, something is amiss.

J.

 

[Lambano]

Clearly, something is amiss.

Indeed. I have seen some scholars (quite orthodox in their views, actually) who are intellectually honest enough to admit that what they call "tensions" in the text are real. Then the process comes down to how much weight one puts on which side of the tension - and why.

 

[Johann]

Indeed. I have seen some scholars (quite orthodox in their views, actually) who are intellectually honest enough to admit that what they call "tensions" in the text are real. Then the process comes down to how much weight one puts on which side of the tension - and why.

Do you believe that Scripture is paradoxical, dialectical, and filled with tension? If so, how do we determine which side we should prioritize? And, of course, the overarching question is: why?

J.

 

[Arthur81]

Does that mean you hold to many Roman doctrines because they had learned scholars for th elongest?

That depends on how one views the Roman Catholic Church as their heresies grew. Notice list on page 7

https://www.tlchrist.info/keithgreen/boettner_romancatholocism.pdf

Those who know the Bible can match the Creeds and Confessions to the Scriptures and see where they are biblical, or man-made.

Are the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds scriptural? Here is a site to view the biblical support -

Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds According to Scripture

steadfastlutherans.org

Is the Athanasian Creed clearly based on scripture?

Athanasian Creed According to Scripture

steadfastlutherans.org

Is the 1646 First London Confession of Faith based on scripture. This is the Baptist Confession that I embrace as best representing my beliefs.

First London Confession of 1646 | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

www.apuritansmind.com

 

[Arthur81]

I'll give you one @Arthur81 and you'll probably disagree.

Modern-day Christians are understood to continue the task laid out in the Great Commission, which is to make disciples of all nations, baptizing and teaching them to obey the commands of Christ. This command, originally given to the eleven disciples, is seen as ongoing because of several factors derived from both the context of Matthew 28:16-20 and the broader New Testament teachings.

1. Christ's Authority Is Universal and Eternal
Jesus declares that "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matthew 28:18), signifying His lordship over every age and people group. The Great Commission is rooted in this all-encompassing authority, which has no expiration. As Christ’s dominion over heaven and earth continues, so does the mission that flows from it. This means that as long as there are nations and people groups who need to hear the Gospel, the task remains relevant.

2. The Command to "Make Disciples" Is Ongoing
The Greek verb μαθητεύσατε (mathēteúsate, "make disciples") is a direct and imperative command. There is no indication in Scripture that this command was limited to the first-century disciples alone. Instead, the New Testament emphasizes that every believer is called to participate in the ministry of spreading the Gospel. For instance, Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 refers to Christians as "ambassadors for Christ," tasked with reconciling the world to God through the message of Christ.

3. Jesus' Promise of His Presence "Until the End of the Age"
Jesus' promise in Matthew 28:20, "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" (συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος, synteléias toû aiônos), suggests that His presence and the accompanying mission will last until the consummation of the present age. This implies that the task of disciple-making will extend to future generations of believers, not just the original apostles.

4. The Book of Acts and Early Christian Practice
The book of Acts and the epistles demonstrate that the apostles understood this commission as an ongoing mission for the early church. In Acts 1:8, Jesus tells His disciples that they will be His witnesses "to the ends of the earth." This phrase signifies a mission that reaches beyond the immediate context of the first-century world, suggesting a long-term effort to spread the Gospel globally.

5. The Call for the Church to Be "Salt and Light"
Jesus' teachings in Matthew 5:13-16 describe believers as the "salt of the earth" and the "light of the world." These metaphors indicate the ongoing role of Christians in preserving and illuminating the truth of the Gospel in the world. Being "light" implies that Christians are to continue pointing others toward the truth and demonstrating the way of salvation, a task consistent with making disciples.

6. Paul's Letters and Church Instruction
Paul repeatedly exhorts the churches to continue proclaiming the Gospel and discipling others. For example, in 2 Timothy 2:2, Paul instructs Timothy, "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."

This shows a chain of discipleship that extends beyond one generation, with the goal of perpetuating Christ’s teachings through successive waves of believers.

Modern-day Christians are certainly called to carry on with the task of the Great Commission. The global, timeless scope of Jesus' command, His eternal authority, and the ongoing work of the early church all suggest that making disciples, baptizing, and teaching are responsibilities that belong to all followers of Christ, regardless of the age they live in. As the Church continues to proclaim the Gospel and teach obedience to Christ, it fulfills its mission in partnership with the Holy Spirit, ensuring that Christ's presence and message are carried to every corner of the world.

Shalom
J.

I agree with your #6 as evangelizing is now in the church, the body of Christ. The office of evangelist is an 'extraordinary' gift of the Spirit, which ended with the apostolic age. This is a minority view, but I find agreement with Matthew Poole on this:

"The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers," (Eph 4:11 NRSV)

And he gave; distributed several gifts, (which are spoken of in general, Eph 1:7), according to his Father’s appointment, who is said to set in the church what Christ is here said to give, 1Co 12:28.

Objection. Nothing is here said of gifts, but only of offices.

Answer. Christ never gave offices without suitable furniture; this diversity therefore of offices includes diversity of respective gifts.

Apostles; extraordinary officers, with an immediate call, universal commission, infallibility in teaching, and power of working miracles, appointed for the first founding the Christian church in all parts of the world, Mat 28:19; Act 19:6.

Objection. The apostles were appointed by Christ before his death.

Answer. The apostle here speaks not of Christ’s first calling them, but:

1. Of his fully supplying them with gifts necessary to the discharge of their office, which was after his resurrection, Act 1:4; Joh 7:39. And:

2. Of their solemn inauguration in their office, by the pouring out of the Holy Ghost upon them in a visible manner, Act 2:1-47.

Prophets; extraordinary officers who did by immediate revelation interpret the Scriptures, 1Co 14:4,5, and not only such as did foretell things to come, Act 11:27; 21:10.

Evangelists; these were likewise extraordinary officers, for the most part chosen by the apostles, as their companions and assistants in preaching the word, and planting churches in the several places where they travelled. Such were Timothy, Titus, Apollos, Silas, &c.

Pastors and teachers; either two names of the same office, implying the distinct duties of ruling and teaching belonging to it; or two distinct offices, but both ordinary, and of standing use in the church in all times; and then pastors are they that are fixed to and preside over particular churches, with the care both of instructing and ruling them, 1Th 5:12; Heb 13:17; called elsewhere elders, and bishops, Act 20:28; Phi 1:1; 1Ti 3:1; Tit 1:5,7; 1Pe 5:1,2.

Teachers; they whose work is to teach the doctrine of religion, and confute the contrary errors.

 

[Lambano]

Do you believe that Scripture is paradoxical, dialectical, and filled with tension? If so, how do we determine which side we should prioritize? And, of course, the overarching question is: why?

I do observe that Scripture is "paradoxical, dialectical, and filled with tension". I do have my reasons for prioritizing what I prioritize. Some may well be based my own very human fears and insecurities, and thus should be scrutinized carefully. I mentioned one of the reasons earlier - I rejected a certain interpretation of "election" because it quite logically led one to justify mistreating those whom one perceives as "non-elect". (And consequently showing my personal bias towards the commands to love our neighbors, even our enemies, even when it is impossibly difficult.)

 

[Lambano]

Being chosen is into the higher walk...the race of faith...unto glory (not just salvation)

I daresay that there are very, very few who are both called and chosen into the "higher walk", though I recognize that such does exist. I'm sure that's one of the reasons why you get such hostility, because most of us just simply can't relate to that calling.

 

[Johann]

I do observe that Scripture is "paradoxical, dialectical, and filled with tension". I do have my reasons for prioritizing what I prioritize. Some may well be based my own very human fears and insecurities, and thus should be scrutinized carefully. I mentioned one of the reasons earlier - I rejected a certain interpretation of "election" because it quite logically led one to conclude that the non-elect may/should be mistreated. (And consequently showing my personal bias towards the commands to love our neighbors, even our enemies, even when it is impossibly difficult.)

Here’s a question for you, @Lambano:

Is the Great Commission recorded in Scripture still binding today, or was it intended only for the disciples?


Matthew 28:16-20 (NRSV)
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Mark 16:15-16 (NRSV)
15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation.
16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 24:46-49 (NRSV)
46 He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Messiah is to suffer and to rise from the dead on the third day,
47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
48 You are witnesses of these things.
49 And see, I am sending upon you what my Father promised; so stay here in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

John 20:21-23 (NRSV)
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Acts 1:8 (NRSV)
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

But to stay on-topic: The tensions inherent in the Biblical text have led to a pair of mutually incompatible theological systems, both claiming Biblical support, that have been debated for over 400 years.

Fantastic post, thanks.

Could you unwrap/expand on this bit about the "pair of mutually incompatible theological systems".
Seems well worth discussing.

And I just stumbled out of bed, so I couldn't even name them. - LOL
(waiting for the coffee to do its work)

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I must confess that I am reacting emotionally to other users (not Arthur81) who have recently used the Reformed understanding of "election" as a pretext for mistreating those whom they perceive as "not-elect". "If God hates them, why shouldn't I?" But I need to keep my emotions under control.

So true.

This "If God hates them, why shouldn't I?" is so prevalent in Christianity.
It should be replaced with "There go I but for the grace of God."

I don't think that God sees us as "dirty rotten sinners".
More like a child that needs a diaper change or their nose wiped.
A good father doesn't toss the baby in the dumpster simply because they soiled their nappies.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Everyone claims they’ve got it right-but clearly, someone must be wrong.

Great posts, thanks.

I wonder if we need to question this idea of there only being one right answer.
And someone being wrong. Typically EVERYONE but us.

What makes anything wrong or right?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Years ago, a Catholic brother challenged me to read through one of their catechisms. I burned out somewhere around article #1500; God help me, I tried. I noticed that they supported each precept with a biblical quote, yet the hermeneutical principle seemed to favor an interpretation that supported the power of the Church institution. (Which is a mean thing to say, but it's what I observed.)

Not mean at all. IMHO
They see salvation as being in the Church. (capital C)
Even claiming that Protestants left the church. (small c)

When the same process forms mutually incompatible theological systems, should we not reexamine the underlying assumptions of the process itself? That is what @St. SteVen has been doing.

Amen to that. Thanks.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Sometimes a "yeah, but" is actually trying to bring a right balance to a tilted understanding. I would say.."on the other hand"...

Thanks for joining the discussion. Great post. I love all the contrasting examples.

And this is key, from your quote above. Rather than discounting the other in the discussion, we should keep them in.
Too often subjects are addressed as "one right answer" and "mine not yours".

Build bridges, not walls.

[

 

[Johann]

"The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers," (Eph 4:11 NRSV)

The gifts specified.
He gave
He is emphatic. It is He that gave. Compare given in Eph_4:7.

Apostles
Properly, as apostles, or to be apostles. Christ's ministers are gifts to His people. Compare 1Co_3:5, “ministers as the Lord gave;” also 1Co_3:21, 1Co_3:22. The distinguishing features of an apostle were, a commission directly from Christ: being a witness of the resurrection: special inspiration: supreme authority: accrediting by miracles: unlimited commission to preach and to found

churches.
Prophets

Preachers and expounders under the immediate influence of the Spirit, and thus distinguished from teachers. 1Co_12:10.
Evangelists
Traveling missionaries.

Pastors and teachers
Pastors or shepherds. The verb ποιμαίνω to tend as a shepherd, is often used in this sense. See on 1Pe_5:2; see on Mat_2:6. The omission of the article from teachers seems to indicate that pastors and teachers are included under one class. The two belong together. No man is fit to be a pastor who cannot also teach, and the teacher needs the knowledge which pastoral experience gives.
VWS
And he gave (kai autos edōken). First aorist active indicative of didōmi. In 1Co_12:28 Paul uses etheto (more common verb, appointed), but here repeats edōken from the quotation in Eph_4:8. There are four groups (tous men, tous de three times, as the direct object of edōken). The titles are in the predicate accusative (apostolous, prophētas, poimenas kai didaskalous). Each of these words occurs in 1Co_12:28 (which see note for discussion) except poimenas (shepherds).

This word poimēn is from a root meaning to protect. Jesus said the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep (Joh_10:11) and called himself the Good Shepherd. In Heb_13:20 Christ is the Great Shepherd (cf. 1Pe_2:25). Only here are preachers termed shepherds (Latin pastores) in the N.T. But the verb poimainō, to shepherd, is employed by Jesus to Peter (Joh_21:16), by Peter to other ministers (1Pe_5:2), by Paul to the elders (bishops) of Ephesus (Act_20:28). Here Paul groups “shepherds and teachers” together. All these gifts can be found in one man, though not always. Some have only one.
RWP.


NASB "He gave"
NKJV "He Himself gave"
NRSV "the gifts He gave"
TEV "It was he who gave gifts to men,"
NJB "and to some, his gift was"
Christ Himself, or rather the Trinity (cf. Eph_4:4-6; 1Co_12:4-6), gives spiritual gifts to His/their people. Believers are all gifted ministers. Some are leaders, but all are ministers. We are saved to serve.

There are several lists of spiritual gifts in Paul's writing (cf. 1Co_12:8-10; 1Co_12:28-30; Rom_12:6-8; Eph_4:11). These lists are not identical. This implies that these lists are not exhaustive, but representative. For Paul the gifts are aspects of Jesus' ministry given to His body (the church) to continue His ministry. The NT never gives a definitive list of the gifts or a guideline for believers' knowing which gifts they are given. The focus is not on identifying gifts, but on the diverse aspect of ministry. One of the best practical guidelines for knowing one's spiritual gift is found in an IVP booklet called "Affirming the Will of God" by Paul Little. The same guidelines for knowing God's will apply to discovering one's spiritual gift.

"apostles" This is the ongoing usage of the term beyond "The Twelve" (cf. Act_14:4; Act_14:14, Barnabas; Rom_16:7, Andronicus and Junias; 1Co_4:6; 1Co_4:9; 1Co_12:28-29; 1Co_15:7, Apollos; Php_2:25, Epaphroditus; 1Th_2:6, Silvanus and Timothy). Their exact task is uncertain, but it involves proclamation of the gospel and servant leadership of the church. It is even possible that Rom_16:7 (KJV "Junia") refers to a feminine apostle!

"prophets" The exact function of these gifted believers is also uncertain (cf. Act_11:28; Act_21:9-11; Act_15:32). They are not the same as OT prophets who wrote Scripture. New Testament prophets apply Scripture to new and different situations. They are linked with apostles, evangelists, pastors and teachers because they all proclaim the gospel, but with different emphases. See Special Topic at Eph_2:20.

"evangelists" Surprisingly, in light of Mat_28:19-20, this gift is mentioned only three times in the NT. Their task in the early church, like the previous two, is uncertain (cf. Act_21:8; 2Ti_4:5), but again obviously involved proclamation of the gospel and servant leadership. It is possible that these first three gifted leaders had itinerant or regional ministries.

"pastors and teachers" The titles "elders" (presbuteroi), "bishops" (episkopoi), and "pastors" (poimenas) all refer to one function and later office (cf. Act_20:17; Act_20:28; and Tit_1:5-7). The term "elder" had an OT background, while the term "bishop" or "overseer" had a Greek city-state background. The Greek syntax (one conjunction [de] and one article [tous]) links these two titles together as one function, one gifted person who proclaims and explains the gospel to a local situation.

It is interesting that in Rom_12:7 and 12:28 teachers are listed as a separate gift and pastors are not mentioned at all (unless it is "he who exhorts" in Rom_12:8). There is so much we moderns do not know about the early church.
Utley.


Do you believe in making disciples @Arthur81?

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Arthur81 said:
"The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers," (Eph 4:11 NRSV)

The gifts specified.
He gave
He is emphatic. It is He that gave. Compare given in Eph_4:7.

I understand these gifts to be offices in the church.
Sometimes referred to as the 5-fold ministry.

And perhaps the gifts/offices are more of a structure than individual "giftings".
God gave us this WAY to operate.

How many churches actually OPERATE within this structure?
(apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers)

We argue about whether there are apostles or prophets today.
Perhaps, if there aren't, there should be.

[

 

[Johann]

Arthur81 said:
"The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers," (Eph 4:11 NRSV)

I understand these gifts to be offices in the church.
Sometimes referred to as the 5-fold ministry.

And perhaps the gifts/offices are more of a structure than individual "giftings".
God gave us this WAY to operate.

How many churches actually OPERATE within this structure?
(apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers)

We argue about whether there are apostles or prophets today.
Perhaps, if there aren't, there should be.

[

Question-are there any apostles on planet earth?

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Question-are there any apostles on planet earth?

That's a good question.

There were Apostles (capital A) and there were apostles. (small a)

Many are of the opinion that there were only Apostles and apostles are no more.
But if God gave apostles to the church, why would we assume there are none now?
The church (the body of Christ) is still here.

Do we NOT need apostles today to:
- be equipped for works of service? (vs 12)
- be built up in the body of Christ? (vs 12)
- reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge? (vs 13)
- to attain to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ? (vs 13)

Ephesians 4:11-13 NIV
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature,
attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

[

 

[Lambano]

Fantastic post, thanks.

Could you unwrap/expand on this bit about the "pair of mutually incompatible theological systems".
Seems well worth discussing.

And I just stumbled out of bed, so I couldn't even name them. - LOL
(waiting for the coffee to do its work)

[

The context of the discussion was the Calvinist vs. the Arminian "ordo salutis", another Latin phrase for your vocabulary (to go with digitus impudicus) meaning "order of salvation". Historically, the followers of the late Jacobus Arminius published the Articles of Remonstrance in 1610 stating their disagreements with teachings of John Calvin based on scripture. The Synod of Dort countered in 1618 with their own scripture verses in the Canons of Dort, better known today as "TULIP". The Synod condemned the Remonstrants as heretics and blood was spilled. Today, both sides claim their theological systems are based on scripture.

That was in the good old 1610s. Last week on this board, we had the Calvinists accusing the Arminians of "preaching a perverted gospel" and the Arminians accusing the Calvinists of "following a doctrine of demons", with both sides lobbing Bible verses like hand grenades and misguided missiles at each other.

And they'll know we are Christians
By our love, by our love;
And they'll know we are Christians by our love.

 

[Johann]

That's a good question.

There were Apostles (capital A) and there were apostles. (small a)

Many are of the opinion that there were only Apostles and apostles are no more.
But if God gave apostles to the church, why would we assume there are none now?
The church (the body of Christ) is still here.

Do we NOT need apostles today to:
- be equipped his people for works of service? (vs 12)
- be built up in the body of Christ? (vs 12)
- reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge? (vs 13)
- to attain to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ? (vs 13)

Ephesians 4:11-13 NIV
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature,
attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

[