The "Yeah, but..." school of doctrine - Bible versus Bible

[St. SteVen]

Today, both sides claim their theological systems are based on scripture.

Very informative post. Thanks.
Interesting that the first publication of the King James Bible was 1611. (the 1610s)

This bit quoted above caught my attention.

How do Christians evaluate whether a doctrine (man-made) is true, or false? Is it biblical?
But isn't EVERY doctrine biblical? Complete with "proof-texts" to validate it.

When the doctrines are contradictory, the two sides accuse each other of misunderstanding,
or more likely misusing the Bible. "doctrines of demons"

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[St. SteVen]

Question-are there any apostles on planet earth?

Same question, but for prophets.

Same answers as post #78.

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[Lambano]

Is the Great Commission recorded in Scripture still binding today, or was it intended only for the disciples?

I don't see anything in the NT writings or in history that would abrogate the Great Commission.

What I find interesting about your question is this: About 20 years ago on the old Key Life Forums, I ran into some who taught a doctrinal system that held that Jesus's teachings (which would include the Great Commission) were part of the "Law" dispensation and thus binding only on his contemporary Jewish audience, and not on NT believers who are part of the "Grace" dispensation. At the time, I was completely taken aback. Today, I think I would identify it as strikingly similar to the heresy of Marcion of Sinope.

 

[Lambano]

This "If God hates them, why shouldn't I?" is so prevalent in Christianity.
It should be replaced with "There go I but for the grace of God."

One of the songs on the soundtrack of my life.

And so you see I have come to doubt
All that I once held as true
I stand alone without beliefs
The only truth I know is You

And as I watch the drops of rain
Weave their weary paths and die
I know that I am like the rain
There but for the grace of You go I

 

[St. SteVen]

One of the songs on the soundtrack of my life.

It seems that most of what we say about "the scriptures" also applies to songs and other poetry that touch us deeply.

All of the arts really. We will be stopped in our tracks when something resonates with us.
It's hard to separate the spiritual aspect from an experience like that.

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[St. SteVen]

All of the arts really.

Even creation itself is so breathtaking at times.
When we aren't taking it for granted.



[

 

[Wick Stick]

We have all been there.

You present your doctrinal position and give biblical support for it.
The response is, "Yeah, but..." and then your "opponent" gives their differing doctrinal position with biblical support.
So basically, Bible versus Bible. (who will win?)

Ironically, the WORDS "Yeah, but..." are an agreement, "Yeah" means "Yes" in proper English.
Shouldn't they say, "No, but...", if they disagree? (nope) That doesn't even make sense.

This is a strange little dance that we do with each other.
Since our opponent gave scriptural support, we are compelled to agree while we disagree.

Has this happened to you? How do you handle it?
What do you do with the "Yeah, but..." response?

That's a pretty poor quality of conversation, but I've been there.

I find that where there is polarized disagreement, there is often a flaw in the foundations upon which the argument is built. So nowadays, my first course is to go look at the logic that came before the argument.

For instance, in the longstanding quarrel between Calvinism and Arminianism, the argument arises because both sides (mis)understand the Bible's words about election in terms of individuals. This is a mistake - the election is not of individuals, but of a group. They are both building on two sides of the same cracked foundation... no wonder it's coming apart.

 

[Johann]

View attachment 50421

That's a good question.

There were Apostles (capital A) and there were apostles. (small a)

Many are of the opinion that there were only Apostles and apostles are no more.
But if God gave apostles to the church, why would we assume there are none now?
The church (the body of Christ) is still here.

Do we NOT need apostles today to:
- be equipped for works of service? (vs 12)
- be built up in the body of Christ? (vs 12)
- reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge? (vs 13)
- to attain to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ? (vs 13)

Ephesians 4:11-13 NIV
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature,
attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

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2) "And some, prophets" (tous de prophetes) "Moreover he gave to some (grace-gifts) to be prophets." The subject is spiritual gifts. It was the special "gifts" of apostleship and prophecy Paul affirmed were given by Jesus Christ to church believers, when He had ascended on high, 1Co_12:28-31.


One Body with Many Members
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


1) "Are all apostles?" (me pantes apostoloi) "Not all (are) apostles (are they)?" Paul asked seven successive rhetorical questions by use of parallelism. Each question implied a negative answer to be right.

2) "Are all prophets?" (me pantes prophetai) "All (are) not prophets (are they)?" Surely all church members were neither of the first four kinds name, 1) apostles, 2) prophets, 3) teachers, and 4) miracle.
1Co_12:29-30

Are all ... -- These rhetorical questions expect a "no" answer. The body of Christ is diverse and each one is needed and have their own vital part to play.

SOME PRACTICAL GUIDELINES FOR HOW BELIEVERS CAN KNOW THEIR GIFTS
1. Ask God specifically to show you.
2. Ask other mature believers who know you what they think your gift might be.
3. Explore your natural desires.
4. Move in the direction of the best light you have and your desire.
5. Give it a try and look for personal contentment and spiritual fruit.
These are taken from a wonderful booklet by Paul Little, Affirming the Will of God, published by IVP. It gives Christian wisdom, not Scripture, on how to know God's will, which is analogous to how to know one's spiritual gift.
However, believers need to remember that the lists of gifts are not the same. Being able to name our gift is not as important as recognizing that we have one. Believers, all believers, are called and gifted to ministry (cf. Eph_4:11-12).

Guess we need to find our gifting in the body of Christ then @St. SteVen.

J.

 

[amigo de christo]

The person who isn't on a "christian" forum to try to "win".

the only ONE we should be winning folks to , per say , IS JESUS CHRIST , HIS EVERY LOVELY WORD .
But do beware for within christendom you have many
who preach another jesus , another gospel , and my friend , THAT ONE WONT SAVE ONE TINY SOUL .
We got BROAD ROAD sin accepting jesus getting preached
We got many and more and more who are coming to the lie , THEY THINK IS LOVE , which
seems to seriously negate the FACT that one must EVEN BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST . WOW that lie wont save one soul .
We got rainbow jesus , the jesus that accepts everones path
WHAT I DONT SEE , Or if i do its very few who do so
are those who actually REMIND folks of ALL THINGS JESUS TAUGHT , of all things the apostels taught
Behold , ITS NOT LOOKING GOOD for ol christendom right now .
WE IS IN A MASSIVE FALLING AWAY and most folks just think its LIGHT LOVE AND THE TRUTH OF THE LORD . that is a bad sign .

 

[amigo de christo]

View attachment 50421

View attachment 50423


2) "And some, prophets" (tous de prophetes) "Moreover he gave to some (grace-gifts) to be prophets." The subject is spiritual gifts. It was the special "gifts" of apostleship and prophecy Paul affirmed were given by Jesus Christ to church believers, when He had ascended on high, 1Co_12:28-31.


One Body with Many Members
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


1) "Are all apostles?" (me pantes apostoloi) "Not all (are) apostles (are they)?" Paul asked seven successive rhetorical questions by use of parallelism. Each question implied a negative answer to be right.

2) "Are all prophets?" (me pantes prophetai) "All (are) not prophets (are they)?" Surely all church members were neither of the first four kinds name, 1) apostles, 2) prophets, 3) teachers, and 4) miracle.
1Co_12:29-30

Are all ... -- These rhetorical questions expect a "no" answer. The body of Christ is diverse and each one is needed and have their own vital part to play.

SOME PRACTICAL GUIDELINES FOR HOW BELIEVERS CAN KNOW THEIR GIFTS
1. Ask God specifically to show you.
2. Ask other mature believers who know you what they think your gift might be.
3. Explore your natural desires.
4. Move in the direction of the best light you have and your desire.
5. Give it a try and look for personal contentment and spiritual fruit.
These are taken from a wonderful booklet by Paul Little, Affirming the Will of God, published by IVP. It gives Christian wisdom, not Scripture, on how to know God's will, which is analogous to how to know one's spiritual gift.
However, believers need to remember that the lists of gifts are not the same. Being able to name our gift is not as important as recognizing that we have one. Believers, all believers, are called and gifted to ministry (cf. Eph_4:11-12).

Guess we need to find our gifting in the body of Christ then @St. SteVen.

J.

A trivea question followed by the answer .
WHAT IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY . THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS THE CHRIST .
rather odd i see lots of folks who may cliam to be a prophet , a teacher an etc
YET they seem to testify of a version of love that has come of the world
RATHER THAN THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
as they find common ground with all religoins , believing we serve the same GOD .
DONT see the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY IN ALL OF THAT .
I see a delusion in all of that .
They preach the love of GOD as though letting folks believe that other religoins serve the same GOD we do
they accept certain sins , they call evil good and good evil
I sure dont see the LOVE OF GOD IN ANY OF THAT . they wont correct squat , they rather holler judge not
its not our job to try and correct our fellow brethren . YET IT IS OUR JOB if we LOVE THEM TO CORRECT them .
THEN they sit and ponder , WHY are churches getting worse . WELL when leaven dont get corrected
ITS GONNA BRING MORE LEAVEN . as error begets only more error . You all have a blessed day now .

 

[amigo de christo]

SOUND the trumpet , its all out war for the souls of men .
To the trenches one and all . Time to contend for the true faith . Let all that has breath praise and thank the glorious LORD .

 

[amigo de christo]

Even creation itself is so breathtaking at times.
When we aren't taking it for granted.

View attachment 50416

[

Imagine that at one time that was just a wee tiny bit of cells forming within the womb .
Lets keep that in mind the next time one comes supporting what they call a medical procedure
but what i call legalized murder . That might sound grave , but i bet the unborn if they could hear it
would think its not GRAVE ENOUGH . you all have a blessed day now .

 

[Johann]

A trivea question followed by the answer .
WHAT IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY . THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS THE CHRIST .
rather odd i see lots of folks who may cliam to be a prophet , a teacher an etc
YET they seem to testify of a version of love that has come of the world
RATHER THAN THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
as they find common ground with all religoins , believing we serve the same GOD .
DONT see the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY IN ALL OF THAT .
I see a delusion in all of that .
They preach the love of GOD as though letting folks believe that other religoins serve the same GOD we do
they accept certain sins , they call evil good and good evil
I sure dont see the LOVE OF GOD IN ANY OF THAT . they wont correct squat , they rather holler judge not
its not our job to try and correct our fellow brethren . YET IT IS OUR JOB if we LOVE THEM TO CORRECT them .
THEN they sit and ponder , WHY are churches getting worse . WELL when leaven dont get corrected
ITS GONNA BRING MORE LEAVEN . as error begets only more error . You all have a blessed day now .

It's easy to sit comfortably and type whatever comes to mind, but true faith is shown when we act, not just speak. The Bible emphasizes that we must not only be hearers of the Word but also doers (James 1:22). Instead of focusing solely on building more churches, we need more outreach ministries actively putting God's Word into action, serving the poor and needy in our communities. As Jesus taught, "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me" (Matthew 25:40).

Shalom.
J.

 

[amigo de christo]

It's easy to sit comfortably and type whatever comes to mind, but true faith is shown when we act, not just speak. The Bible emphasizes that we must not only be hearers of the Word but also doers (James 1:22). Instead of focusing solely on building more churches, we need more outreach ministries actively putting God's Word into action, serving the poor and needy in our communities. As Jesus taught, "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me" (Matthew 25:40).

Shalom.
J.

ITS ALL NEEDED . and the sooner we realize this the far better off we had been . ITS all NECESSARY .
from all correction , warnings , gravity , to taking care of others , to doing all those things johann .
BUT what i see today is a ONE SIDE MESSAGE .
it speaks only of perhaps doing some good works .
DIDNT you yourself write a post about ONE SIDED MESSAGES . sometimes our own feet can slip .
But dont you worry my friend . you are not being judged or condmened by me my friend .
Just a fellow friend reminding another fellow friend . Have a blessed day now .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That depends on how one views the Roman Catholic Church as their heresies grew. Notice list on page 7

https://www.tlchrist.info/keithgreen/boettner_romancatholocism.pdf

Those who know the Bible can match the Creeds and Confessions to the Scriptures and see where they are biblical, or man-made.

Are the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds scriptural? Here is a site to view the biblical support -

Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds According to Scripture

steadfastlutherans.org

Is the Athanasian Creed clearly based on scripture?

Athanasian Creed According to Scripture

steadfastlutherans.org

Is the 1646 First London Confession of Faith based on scripture. This is the Baptist Confession that I embrace as best representing my beliefs.

First London Confession of 1646 | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

www.apuritansmind.com

Well I know what I believe is now called the NIcene Creed, which was known as the Apostles Creed when I was a young catholic. I know that is biblical. The rest I will look at after and deecide for myself viewing Scripture what is right or wrong.

 

[St. SteVen]

For instance, in the longstanding quarrel between Calvinism and Arminianism, the argument arises because both sides (mis)understand the Bible's words about election in terms of individuals. This is a mistake - the election is not of individuals, but of a group. They are both building on two sides of the same cracked foundation... no wonder it's coming apart.

Good post, thanks.

This is worth discussing further. "election is not of individuals, but of a group."
How did you arrive at that interesting conclusion?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

SOME PRACTICAL GUIDELINES FOR HOW BELIEVERS CAN KNOW THEIR GIFTS
1. Ask God specifically to show you.
2. Ask other mature believers who know you what they think your gift might be.
3. Explore your natural desires.
4. Move in the direction of the best light you have and your desire.
5. Give it a try and look for personal contentment and spiritual fruit.
These are taken from a wonderful booklet by Paul Little, Affirming the Will of God, published by IVP. It gives Christian wisdom, not Scripture, on how to know God's will, which is analogous to how to know one's spiritual gift.
However, believers need to remember that the lists of gifts are not the same. Being able to name our gift is not as important as recognizing that we have one. Believers, all believers, are called and gifted to ministry (cf. Eph_4:11-12).

Guess we need to find our gifting in the body of Christ then @St. SteVen.

I have a pet peeve about how this is handled in the church.
I've seen many books and classes on "Discovering your gift."

The word "gifts" is such an unfortunate rendering. IMHO
We are talking about supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
Manifestations that are distributed as the Spirit sees fit.

We don't own the manifestations; the manifestations own us.

We are not limited to "gifts" we discovered. -- "Nope, that's not my gift."

I make myself available to anything the Spirit wants to manifest in me.

[

 

[Johann]

I have a pet peeve about how this is handled in the church.
I've seen many books and classes on "Discovering your gift."

The word "gifts" is such an unfortunate rendering. IMHO
We are talking about supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
Manifestations that are distributed as the Spirit sees fit.

We don't own the manifestations; the manifestations own us.

We are not limited to "gifts" we discovered. -- "Nope, that's not my gift."

I make myself available to anything the Spirit wants to manifest in me.

[

How do you know with what God in Christ "graced" you through the instrumentality of the Spirit.?

Where in the body of Christ do you "fit in?"

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

How do you know with what God in Christ "graced" you through the instrumentality of the Spirit.?

Where in the body of Christ do you "fit in?"

Good questions.

The Holy Spirit is a person. He distributes manifestations just as he determines.
"Gifts" are not to be "discovered", the Spirit distributes them as needed.

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit,
and he distributes them to each one,
just as he determines. - 1 Corinthians 12:11 NIV

The "gifts" are manifestations of the Holy Spirit for ministry to the body.
I have a theory that in a small church, the manifestations have to be distributed more lavishly on fewer individuals.
Since all the manifestations are needed to make the church complete.

I also believe that no one is locked into a "gift". There is no hole left in ministry if they leave the church.
Churches aren't waiting for the right "gift" to arrive to cover areas with missing "gifts".
The Spirit distributes and redistributes as he wishes. Assuming the church understands how this works.

I imagine that some churches have missing body parts because of a poor understanding of manifestations.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

Good post, thanks.

This is worth discussing further. "election is not of individuals, but of a group."

How did you arrive at that interesting conclusion?

I think this might be the doctrine the Old Testament spends the most time developing... Israel is elect, special, chosen by God.

Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

I don't think it's a great leap of logic to say that... it means the same thing in the New Testament that it does in the Old Testament.