Not ALL the physically dead are raised at the same time, the dead in Christ rise FIRST.

[covenantee]

God was speaking literally when he said that he would bring his people back to the land and circumcise their hearts.

Who are "his people"? What identifies them as "his people"?

1. Their DNA
2. Their religion
3. Their culture
4. Their domicile
5. Their faithfulness and obedience to God and His Son
6. Something else

Need a hint?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do they accept Christ? Do you compound your ignorance?

Some will some won't. But that isn't the issue. The people of Israel are returning to the land as God promised through his prophets. This is clear evidence that Amillennialism is wrong.

You are absolutely dispensational.

You are in error.

Only dispensationalism, describing itself as "Christian" zionism, allies itself with the racist zionist antichrist in according any significance to 1948

You have been duped by conspiracy theories.

Examination of historic premils such as Justin Martyr reveals that they, long before Augustine, in concert with amils, declare those in Christ alone to allegorically be "the true Israelitic race".

Augustine invented Amillennialism in reaction to the "millennialists" of his day because the "millennialists" were waiting for a glorious time when one might practice sexual deviancy. He decided that the prophets shouldn't be taken literally and taught his followers to read the Bible allegorically instead.

The reconstitution of Israel in 1948 proved him wrong. God literally brought his people back to the land just as he promised.

Christ was speaking literally when He said:

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

I don't agree with your interpretation. Contrary to your translation, Jesus wasn't talking about nations, he was talking about people. The kingdom of God was taken from the scribes and Pharisees and given to the Apostles.

That nation is His Church, and His Church alone:

No. His church is not a nation.

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Peter was talking to Jewish people.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Who are "his people"? What identifies them as "his people"?

1. Their DNA
2. Their religion
3. Their culture
4. Their domicile
5. Their faithfulness and obedience to God and His Son
6. Something else

Need a hint?

Why is it that Satan can identify his people but you can't?

 

[covenantee]

Some will some won't. But that isn't the issue. The people of Israel are returning to the land as God promised through his prophets. This is clear evidence that Amillennialism is wrong.

See post 101.

You have been duped by conspiracy theories.

You've been duped by Darby and Scofield, who were duped by the zionist antichrist.

Augustine invented Amillennialism in reaction to the "millennialists" of his day because the "millennialists" were waiting for a glorious time when one might practice sexual deviancy. He decided that the prophets shouldn't be taken literally and taught his followers to read the Bible allegorically instead.

Amil was alive and well in Justin Martyr's time, long before Augustine.

I don't agree with your interpretation. Contrary to your translation, Jesus wasn't talking about nations, he was talking about people. The kingdom of God was taken from the scribes and Pharisees and given to the Apostles.

So when Jesus said "a nation", he wasn't talking about a nation.

Thanks for continuing to confirm your dispen delusionism.

No. His church is not a nation.

Peter rebuts you.

Peter was talking to Jewish people.

More dispen delusionism.

Peter was talking to the Church.

God is not a racist.

You won't be able to contort Him into one.

 

[covenantee]

Why is it that Satan can identify his people but you can't?

Just answer the question.

If you can.

 

[PinSeeker]

Of course I will argue with that since it's false. There's no direct correlation between amillennialism and Calvinism.

The positive correllation of Calvinists and Amillennialists is not false at all. Calvin didn't write a lot on eschatology and Revelation, not because he was not reformed in his understanding of it ~ he was one of the chief reformers, you know ~ but because that wasn't the issue that he focused on. He was more concerned with systematic theology, soteriology. and God's sovereignty.

The reason Calvinism and dispensationalism are seldom found together is primarily because of the difference of the view of the church between covenant theology and dispensationalism. Calvin was very covenantal in his understanding of Scripture and wrote extensively on systematic theology and the centrality of the covenants through Scripture, from Adam (life), to Noah (life renewed), to Abraham (land/descendants), to Moses (Law), to David (King), to, finally, the one true, everlasting Covenant in Christ, Who was and is the fulfillment of all the previous "lesser" covenants.

So:

Some of the leading dispensationalists are Calvinists, such as John MacArthur.

This is really a continuation from above. John MacArthur, SI, describes himself as a "leaky dispensationalist." He holds to the dispensationalist school of premillenialism, a pre-tribulational Rapture of the Church, and a literal Millennium, and, regarding Israel, a completely restored political state Israel that will inherit physical ownership of the land of Canaan on the earth. John Calvin would have very much disagreed with all these things, along with MacArthur's maintaining of the distinction between the church and Israel, which is a hallmark of dispensationalism, premillennialism, and a literal, still future, Millennium.

Again, most "five-point" Calvinists (which is based, of course, on Calvin's understandings, and I count myself as one, obviously) follow covenant theology, subscribing to a progressively covenantal understanding of Scripture, which denies this distinction and places the beginning of the church at least back to Abraham, and logically back to Adam, and that God's millennium is synonymous with the time God is bring His Israel to completion, the time of the New Covenant, which is from Jesus to now and going forward to His return, which is amillennialism.

I argue with false teaching and false beliefs. That's just what I do.

That's all well and good, but what you deem "false" is not necessarily false. And, you can say the same of me; I have no problem with that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So when Jesus said "a nation", he wasn't talking about a nation.

Jesus wasn't speaking in English.

Peter rebuts you.

Peter doesn't know me. The question is a matter of what Peter said and what he meant. He doesn't mean what you think he does.

Peter was talking to the Church.

He was talking to his own people about issues that would concern them. Paul says that Peter is the Apostle to the Jews. Galatians 2:8. Peter addresses his letter to the Jewish diaspora. 1 Peter 1:1

God is not a racist.

So what? Does this fact negate what the scriptures say? No. With whom did God make the covenant at Mt. Sinai? The Hebrew people who came out of Egypt. And who lived in Jerusalem until Titus emptied the city? And to whom did God say he would return them to the land? And who is returning to the land right now?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Just answer the question.

If you can.

The answer is, you aren't willing to listen and consider.

 

[covenantee]

The answer is, you aren't willing to listen and consider.

I need an answer before I can listen and consider.

Dispens trumpet incessantly about "his people", but refuse to even identify who they are.

Because such identification exposes and detonates the racist zionist foundation upon which dispensationalism depends for its survival.

Next.

 

[covenantee]

Jesus wasn't speaking in English.

Enlighten us.

Peter doesn't know me. The question is a matter of what Peter said and what he meant. He doesn't mean what you think he does.

Knowing you wouldn't change one iota of what Peter declared.

He was talking to his own people about issues that would concern them. Paul says that Peter is the Apostle to the Jews. Galatians 2:8. Peter addresses his letter to the Jewish diaspora. 1 Peter 1:1

He was talking to the Church.

1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

That description is reserved specifically for the Church, as Paul affirms.

Ephesians 2
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

With whom did God make the covenant at Mt. Sinai?

That covenant is decayed, old, and vanished. (Hebrews 8:13)

And who lived in Jerusalem until Titus emptied the city?

Jews and Gentiles.

And to whom did God say he would return them to the land? And who is returning to the land right now?

I asked you to identify who "them" are.

You refuse.

So don't try to tell us about "them".

 

[CadyandZoe]

I need an answer before I can listen and consider.


Dispens trumpet incessantly about "his people", but refuse to even identify who they are.

Because such identification exposes and detonates the racist zionist foundation upon which dispensationalism depends for its survival.

Next.

If you weren't playing the "gotcha" game, you might learn something. You might come to understand that the leadership of Israel makes no difference right now. Have you never read Malachi chapter 4? Have you never read that a sun of healing will rise in His wings? Have you never read that he will bless those who fear the Lord and burn up those who are arrogantly evil?

Wake up.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Enlighten us.

Do you believe he was? hmm. Surely you know that the New Testament is written in Koine Greek? Did you also know that Jesus primarily spoke Aramaic, which was the common language in Judea during the first century AD. What you are reading is a translation and your translation doesn't accurately indicate what Jesus meant.

Knowing you wouldn't change one iota of what Peter declared.

He was talking to the Church.

1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

That description is reserved specifically for the Church, as Paul affirms.

We distinguish between the "addressee" of a letter and the subject matter of the letter. The addressee of Peter's first epistle is the Jewish diaspora -- his kinsmen living abroad from his perspective. Since you don't understand this distinction, you don't understand Peter's letter.

Ephesians 2
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

That covenant is decayed, old, and vanished. (Hebrews 8:13)

Jews and Gentiles.

I asked you to identify who "them" are.

You refuse.

So don't try to tell us about "them".

Playing games again. Do you ever get tired?

 

[PinSeeker]

If you weren't playing the "gotcha" game...

It seems a simple question to me, CAZ. Who is Israel? Well, Jews, I presume you would answer. If so, okay, then, who are God's true Jews?

You know, just one other comment... And this is not particularly directed at you or anyone else, specifically, but there is so much, shall we say, unpleasantness, on this board, and that troubles my soul.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

​

Zechariah 14​

​

King James Version​

​

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.”

The above proves that some of the heathen are left on earth during the millennial reign of Christ with His saints in Jerusalem.

Can you show me where Jesus indicated in what He said in the following that it was only a temporary thing?

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So, you expect us to believe that Jesus changed things so that people no longer needed to go to Jerusalem to worship God, and instead made it so that people must worship God in spirit and in truth only to one day make it so that people would need to go to Jerusalem again to worship God without having to worship him in spirit and in truth anymore?

And, you expect us to believe that animal sacrifices and offerings will be reinstated in the future, as is implied by the reference to keeping the feast of tabernacles, which requires making animal sacrifices? Why would that occur when Jesus made His "once for all" sacrifice long ago that established the new covenant while making the old covenant and its animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete? Is God really going to revert to old covenant ways after establishing the better new covenant by way of Christ's sacrifice (Heb 8:6-13, Heb 10:1-12)? That is an insult to what Christ accomplished on the cross to think that animal sacrifices would ever be reinstated.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The positive correllation of Calvinists and Amillennialists is not false at all.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. There is no direct correlation between Calvinism and Amillennialism, as if you can only believe in both or neither of those. In other words, it's not the case that a belief in one of those necessitates a belief in the other as well. Would you agree with that?

Calvin didn't write a lot on eschatology and Revelation, not because he was not reformed in his understanding of it ~ he was one of the chief reformers, you know ~ but because that wasn't the issue that he focused on. He was more concerned with systematic theology, soteriology. and God's sovereignty.

Sorry, but I couldn't care less about that.

The reason Calvinism and dispensationalism are seldom found together is primarily because of the difference of the view of the church between covenant theology and dispensationalism.

You understand that dispensationalism isn't the only form of premillennialism, right?

Calvin was very covenantal in his understanding of Scripture and wrote extensively on systematic theology and the centrality of the covenants through Scripture, from Adam (life), to Noah (life renewed), to Abraham (land/descendants), to Moses (Law), to David (King), to, finally, the one true, everlasting Covenant in Christ, Who was and is the fulfillment of all the previous "lesser" covenants.

Yawn.

So:

This is really a continuation from above. John MacArthur, SI, describes himself as a "leaky dispensationalist." He holds to the dispensationalist school of premillenialism, a pre-tribulational Rapture of the Church, and a literal Millennium, and, regarding Israel, a completely restored political state Israel that will inherit physical ownership of the land of Canaan on the earth. John Calvin would have very much disagreed with all these things, along with MacArthur's maintaining of the distinction between the church and Israel, which is a hallmark of dispensationalism, premillennialism, and a literal, still future, Millennium.

Again, most "five-point" Calvinists (which is based, of course, on Calvin's understandings, and I count myself as one, obviously) follow covenant theology, subscribing to a progressively covenantal understanding of Scripture, which denies this distinction and places the beginning of the church at least back to Abraham, and logically back to Adam, and that God's millennium is synonymous with the time God is bring His Israel to completion, the time of the New Covenant, which is from Jesus to now and going forward to His return, which is amillennialism.

I follow covenant theology as well and I'm not a Calvinist. So, again, there is nothing which would indicate that if you're an Amillennialist you must also be a Calvinist. That's all I'm saying, but maybe you missed that. It appears that what you're saying is, based on what Calvin himself believed in relation to covenant theology, his view fit with amillennialism. Okay, sure. But, obviously, some other Calvinists don't believe in amillennialism, so, apparently, those Calvinists didn't ascribe to what he taught about eschatology, if they are even aware of it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It seems a simple question to me, CAZ. Who is Israel? Well, Jews, I presume you would answer.

Israel is a country in the Middle East.

If so, okay, then, who are God's true Jews?

Concerning God's promise to bring them back to the land and circumcise their hearts, all sorts of Hebrew people are returning to the Land of Promise, both "true Jews", if you will, and other Jews. At the moment, it doesn't matter. When the time comes, they will sort themselves out.

You know, just one other comment... And this is not particularly directed at you or anyone else, specifically, but there is so much, shall we say, unpleasantness, on this board, and that troubles my soul.

Grace and peace to you.

Me too.
Grace to you also. :)

Edit to clarify the issue of the Jewish return to the land. Let's take a look at Deuteronomy 30:5-7

5 The Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.​

​

6 “Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. 7 The Lord your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you.​

I hope the passage above illustrates that the question of who is a "true" Jew is not relevant. Why? God says that when he brings his people back to the Land, he will circumcise their hearts. At that moment, ALL of them will be "true Jews." God is the one who sanctifies people, and at the proper time, he will sanctify them.

The debate over whether the current inhabitants of Israel are "true" doesn't really serve a purpose. When the time comes, things will be sorted out, and God will circumcise their hearts.

 

[covenantee]

Do you believe he was? hmm. Surely you know that the New Testament is written in Koine Greek? Did you also know that Jesus primarily spoke Aramaic, which was the common language in Judea during the first century AD. What you are reading is a translation and your translation doesn't accurately indicate what Jesus meant.

Whom to believe?
1. You
2. Jesus
Need a hint?

We distinguish between the "addressee" of a letter and the subject matter of the letter. The addressee of Peter's first epistle is the Jewish diaspora -- his kinsmen living abroad from his perspective. Since you don't understand this distinction, you don't understand Peter's letter.

Yes, Peter didn't dare address the Church, did he, because he knew that you'd see it.

Playing games again. Do you ever get tired?

Not of games that you lose.

 

[covenantee]

If you weren't playing the "gotcha" game, you might learn something. You might come to understand that the leadership of Israel makes no difference right now. Have you never read Malachi chapter 4? Have you never read that a sun of healing will rise in His wings? Have you never read that he will bless those who fear the Lord and burn up those who are arrogantly evil?

Wake up.

1. Their DNA
2. Their religion
3. Their culture
4. Their domicile
5. Their faithfulness and obedience to God and His Son
6. Something else

Are "those who fear the Lord" those who are faithful and obedient to God and His Son?

 

[PinSeeker]

Israel is a country in the Middle East.

Not in God's economy. You might take a look at Romans 2:28-29, and Romans 9-11 ~ specifically 9:6-8 and 11:25-26. And Galatians 3:26-29, and Ephesians 2:11-22.

Concerning God's promise to bring them back to the land...

You might consider what the land promise really is, as Jesus proclaims it in Matthew 5:5.

and circumcise their hearts...

Yes, of the Spirit, as Paul speaks of in (again) Romans 2:28-29. And this is inclusive of all those called by God and in Christ, regardless of ethnicity.

, all sorts of Hebrew people are returning to the Land of Promise, both "true Jews", if you will, and other Jews. At the moment, it doesn't matter. When the time comes, they will sort themselves out.

The true Jews, those of God's Israel, are... will be... all those in Christ Jesus. Again ~ as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26, "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

all sorts of Hebrew people are returning

Oh, so it is their DNA that determines who "his people" are.

Salvation by DNA.

What took you so long to admit it?

Numbers 25
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

24K poor souls whose DNA didn't save them then.

Does it save them today?

Scripture, please.