It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Spiritual Israelite]

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number … standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes … Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come? “I said to him, sir, you know. And he said to me, “these are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (Revelation 7:9-14)

The word "the" was added by the translators there. Other translations just have "great tribulation" instead of "the great tribulation". All believers go through great tribulation, so it makes no sense to think that refers only to people who are martyred during a short period of time in the future.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Biblepaige]

The word "the" was added by the translators there. Other translations just have "great tribulation" instead of "the great tribulation". All believers go through great tribulation, so it makes no sense to think that refers only to people who are martyred during a short period of time in the future.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Certainly we face trials and tribulations in our life walk as Christians.

The wrath of God is something else. Something more.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Certainly we face trials and tribulations in our life walk as Christians.

The wrath of God is something else. Something more.

This is the problem we're continually running into in the post-trib vs. pretrib debate. It seems that pretribs typically associate the tribulation only with God's wrath while post-tribs associate the tribulation with persecution against believers and a high level of deception, apostasy, wickedness and such. So, having different definitions for these terms makes it impossible to have a reasonable discussion about these things.

So, with that said, you are then saying that the "trib" part of "pre-trib" or "post-trib" is only God's wrath? In my view Christ's wrath comes down on all his enemies right after we are caught up to Him. I see 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 as happening on the same day when Christ comes and I believe 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Thess 2:1-3 is about that same day. Pretribs often try to say that post-tribs have believers experiencing God's wrath, but that is not the case. We agree with 1 Thess 5:9 every bit as much as pretribs do. No believer is appointed to God's wrath...ever.

With that said, I believe the context of Revelation 7:9-14 is in relation to believers enduring through tribulation in terms of persecution and such rather than it being a case of being taken away from God's wrath. So, I see that as referring to all believers who have ever endured through tribulation in their lives rather than just referring to people in the future being taken away from God's wrath. The book of Revelation is not a book that is only about the future.

 

[WPM]

It's the MO of all pretribs, apparently. We can't get a single pretrib to actually exegete scripture and show how exactly it supports their doctrine. Notice how he didn't bother addressing what I said about Luke 17:26-37. He knows that passage does not support pre-trib or else he would have addressed it.

What have they? That is why they resort to links and charts that we cannot engage with.

 

[Biblepaige]

You cut it short before looking at the scripture which contradicts your pre-trib doctrine? How convenient.

You're far too snide.
The passages I quote in context prove my point.

Can you tell me how you can reconcile your view with the passage I quoted from Luke 17:26-37? It's quite telling that you didn't bother addressing what I said about that passage. Is it because you know that passage doesn't support pre-trib? If you think otherwise, then address what I said about it and show how you interpret it. I'm not going to address all your points and questions if you don't bother addressing mine first.

So, show us then. We're definitely not just going to take your word for it or Chuck Missler's word for it.

We see that. You first and foremost don't take God's word for it. We know as Christians and Bible students of God's word that when people don't take God at his word first,we have no chance to reach them.

Yet again God's word is proven true. Not everyone will understand the word. For you and others like you here the pre tribulation rapture message is foolishness. And doesn't exist.
God told us we would meet people who feel that way.

You can't help it. And neither can we help you to see.

 

[Biblepaige]

What have they? That is why they resort to links and charts that we cannot engage with.

You can engage. All you have to do is open a link or watch a video. But you refuse.

You stay ignorant. While continually crowing the same yarn, prove it! But you won't learn anything from our efforts. You don't care to. You don't want to. You refuse to.

You don't believe a word we say. Because you don't believe a word God said first.

 

[Douggg]

And, what do you think this means exactly then? And, how do you differentiate between "the uttermost part of the earth" and "the uttermost part of heaven", as referenced in Mark 13:27?

Go outside and look straight up into the sky (assuming it is not cloudy outside). And then start lowering your eyes, following the sky. When the sky reaches the horizon where sky and earth meet - that is the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost post of heaven juncture. Then as far as a person can go east, west, north, south, following that juncture. Which simply means all around the earth, all places upon the earth.

Of course I don't. Please stop asking ridiculous questions. The word "rapture" itself refers to the act of being caught up to Christ. The angels will gather the elect after God raises the dead in Christ and changes everyone's bodies (including the living) to be immortal.

The angels are not mentioned in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 rapture/resurrection event. It is by Jesus, not the angels.

 

[WPM]

Go outside and look straight up into the sky (assuming it is not cloudy outside). And then start lowering your eyes, following the sky. When the sky reaches the horizon where sky and earth meet - that is the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost post of heaven juncture. Then as far as a person can go east, west, north, south, following that juncture. Which simply means all around the earth, all places upon the earth.


The angels are not mentioned in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 rapture/resurrection event. It is by Jesus, not the angels.

Not true!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[Biblepaige]

Not true!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The article has to be concise. The Lord himself descends and it is therein described the Lord gives the shout with the voice of an archangel.

It isn't an archangel that descends and shouts. It is the Lord himself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Go outside and look straight up into the sky (assuming it is not cloudy outside). And then start lowering your eyes, following the sky. When the sky reaches the horizon where sky and earth meet - that is the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost post of heaven juncture. Then as far as a person can go east, west, north, south, following that juncture. Which simply means all around the earth, all places upon the earth.

You didn't answer my question. I'm asking you what is the difference between "the uttermost pat of the earth" and "the uttermost part of heaven". Based on what you've said, it seems that you think those phrases both mean the same thing. Is that correct? If not, then what is your understanding of each of those phrases?

The angels are not mentioned in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 rapture/resurrection event. It is by Jesus, not the angels.

The angels don't need to be mentioned there because we already know how the elect are gathered from Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27. Not every passage about the second coming contains all the same details about it. Are you not capable of understanding that simple concept?

You say that 1 Thess 4:14-17 can't be the same event as Matthew 24:29-31 because it doesn't reference the angels. Where does 1 Thess 4:14-17 say that Jesus gathers the elect (His people)? It doesn't. You conclude that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is a different event because it doesn't mention the angels gathering the elect, but it also does not mention Jesus gathering the elect. So, you're not being consistent with your method of interpretation here. Can you admit that the text in 1 Thess 4:14-17 does not specify how exactly those who are in Christ are gathered to Him when He comes? I would hope so because it doesn't. There is no requirement that the angels have to be mentioned in that passage in order to be present at that event. That's ridiculous.

They are mentioned here and this is the same event as 1 Thess 4:14-5:3.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This shows that when He comes and the rapture occurs (when else will He come to be glorified in his saints and admired in all them that believe except for when the rapture occurs?) His mighty angels will be with Him. You have failed to interpret scripture with scripture as you always do. You interpret 1 Thess 4:14-17 in isolation from the rest of scripture and then you twist other scripture to fit that interpretation. You frequently try to relate unrelated scripture and deny that scriptures which are obviously related have any relation to each other. It's just unbelievable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The article has to be concise. The Lord himself descends and it is therein described the Lord gives the shout with the voice of an archangel.

It isn't an archangel that descends and shouts. It is the Lord himself.

Jesus is not an archangel. You are mistaken. The shout is by way of the voice of the archangel (probably Michael) who will be leading the rest of the angels when they come with Jesus. That voice of the archangel is figuratively called "the trumpet of God". The seventh trumpet is also called "the voice of the seventh angel" (Rev 10:7).

 

[Biblepaige]

Jesus is not an archangel. You are mistaken. The shout is by way of the voice of the archangel (probably Michael) who will be leading the rest of the angels when they come with Jesus. That voice of the archangel is figuratively called "the trumpet of God". The seventh trumpet is also called "the voice of the seventh angel" (Rev 10:7).

Who sounds the trumpets?

I didn't say Jesus is an archangel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who sounds the trumpets?

I didn't say Jesus is an archangel.

I thought you were saying that because I thought you recognized that the shout is from the voice of the archangel. But, I guess not. I believe the shout, the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God all refer to the same thing. You can see in Revelation 10:7 that the seventh trumpet is also referred to as "the voice of the seventh angel", so prophetic trumpets symbolically represent the voices of angels.

You said "The angels are not mentioned in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 rapture/resurrection event". An archangel is an angel, so that's evidence that at least one angel is there. So, then you have to ask yourself if it's really talking about an event where just one angel is there and not the rest of them as well? Not every passage about the second coming is going to have all the same details about it. There's nothing in 1 Thess 4:14-17 that contradicts anything in Matthew 24:29-31. They just don't have all the same details.

 

[IndianaRob]

Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

 

[Douggg]

Not true!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The day and hour of rapture/resurrection event will be directed from God the Father to Jesus, as to being the actual trigger for the event to take place.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

And then when carrying out God the Father's directive, on that unknown day and hour...Jesus will come for them in Christ, the living and the dead. And Jesus's shout and speaking is the voice of the archangel ( Jesus being the highest-most messenger of God as Jesus will be sent by God), and the trump of God. He will raise the dead and translate the living.

In Revelation 4:1, when John was called up to heaven, he described the voice saying "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be thereafter" were as it were a trumpet talking to him.

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus is not an archangel. You are mistaken. The shout is by way of the voice of the archangel (probably Michael) who will be leading the rest of the angels when they come with Jesus. That voice of the archangel is figuratively called "the trumpet of God". The seventh trumpet is also called "the voice of the seventh angel" (Rev 10:7).

There are not a group of angels coming with Jesus to participate in the raising of the dead in Christ, nor the translation of the living.

God The Father sends Jesus.

 

[WPM]

You can engage. All you have to do is open a link or watch a video. But you refuse.

You stay ignorant. While continually crowing the same yarn, prove it! But you won't learn anything from our efforts. You don't care to. You don't want to. You refuse to.

You don't believe a word we say. Because you don't believe a word God said first.

You have proved nothing here. Start with the classic supposed Pretrib proof passages in the Op, and we can move forward.

 

[Keraz]

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture to Heaven false teaching:
1. As Pre-Trib writer and leader John Walvoord admits, there is no actual verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches a Pre-Tribulation rapture to heaven.

2. Pre-Trib’ers force assumptions on many key Bible verses – especially assuming that all references to “saints” and to the “elect”, who are being persecuted and martyred during the “end-times’ tribulation”, must refer to those individuals who are saved after the Pre-Trib rapture has taken place. How are all these folks getting saved during the “end-times’ tribulation” if the “Church” and the “restrainer” have been removed?

3. There is no instance in the New Testament where the Lord Jesus Christ, or the Apostles made any statement to the effect that “the church is to be evacuated off of planet Earth prior to the beginning of the end-times tribulation period.

4. Despite taking several texts out of context from a few early church fathers’ writings, the Pre-Trib’ers really cannot find any predominant, popular teaching that supports the Pre-Trib rapture prophetic viewpoint in any era of Church history prior to the 1830s.

5. Many learned men of the Christian faith, such as John Bunyan, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Finney, John Knox, John Calvin, Martin Luther, George Whitefield, etc., were all solid Post-Trib believers! That is: they believed the faithful peoples go to be with Jesus in Jerusalem at His Return.

6. The Pre-Trib rapture is a very big “cash cow” for Pre-Trib writers. Yet, there are some Pre-Trib’ers who will admit that their prophetic viewpoint is still a minority among Bible scholars. How can that be, you may ask, since so many prophecy books favor the “Pre-Trib” viewpoint? That is because so many of the major “Christian” publishing houses are, for the most part, owned and controlled by liberal Christians. Post-Trib writers often find it extremely hard to get their books published by these publishing houses, because Pre-Trib “sells”. Could that be because a rapture removal to heaven appeals to an “escapist” mentality? It’s that mentality of: “I sure don’t want to be here when the Antichrist takes over!” The Pre-Trib rapture theory appeals to many, after all, who wants to face persecution?

7. Despite the fact that many Pre-Trib’ers dislike author Dave MacPherson, they haven’t been able to disprove his well-documented findings that show that the Pre-Trib rapture’s origins (as far as any public teaching) date back to the 1830s – and not earlier than that time. Nor have the Pre-Trib’ers been able to disprove MacPherson’s findings that the vast majority of the early church fathers taught that the church would go through the “end-times’ tribulation” – and lots of tribulation before that.

8. Public teaching of the Pre-Trib rapture originated in the British Isles during the 1830s. This theory was then taken to America a little bit later, and was popularized by the “Scofield Study Bible”.

9. To believe in the Pre-Trib rapture, one must ignore several key Bible verses that speak directly against that idea, such as John 17:15 where the Lord Jesus Christ Himself prays that the Father NOT take believers OUT OF the world – and I Thessalonians 4:16, 17, which says that the Christians living at the time of Jesus Christ’s return are not caught up until after the “dead in Christ” are raised first.

10. Believing in the Pre-Trib rapture, goes against the prevalent theme of those portions of the Bible that deal with tribulation and persecution. That prevalent theme is “preservation in the midst of tribulation”. Note: the accounts of Daniel in the lions’ den, and of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the fiery furnace! Isaiah 43:2

11. To believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, you have to think that you will be among a very “select group” of Christians who will not have to suffer horrible things during the “end-times’ tribulation”. Your “select group” excludes those millions of Christians from past centuries who were NOT “air evacuated” out of their tribulation and suffering, and the many individuals who become Christians during the “end-times’ tribulation”, and who will suffer martyrdom! As Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:25 plainly say will happen.

12. The Pre-Trib rapture belief is, for the most part, seen to produce very bad fruit– that is, it seems to have neutralized” many Christians living today, causing them to sit back and to not fight evil. And that is because, don’t you know, they won’t be here when things get really bad. Could this “doctrine” have been specifically designed to make Christians complacent and careless?

13. There will be a ‘rapture’, but not to heaven, when Jesus Returns to earth. this will be the gathering of Matthew 24:31 and the rising into the air to meet Him of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Then we Christians will be with Him always; ON EARTH.
Ref; Darryl Eberhart

 

[Biblepaige]

You have proved nothing here. Start with the classic supposed Pretrib proof passages in the Op, and we can move forward.

I and others have proven plenty. Not just to support biblical pre tribulation rapture but also that you have absolutely no genuine interest in scripture. Whether it be this topic or any other.

No matter what is posted you push the lie that nothing has been proven. And you think we don't see it.

You are the falsehood here.

 

[WPM]

I and others have proven plenty. Not just to support biblical pre tribulation rapture but also that you have absolutely no genuine interest in scripture. Whether it be this topic or any other.

No matter what is posted you push the lie that nothing has been proven. And you think we don't see it.

You are the falsehood here.

You have obviously nothing to bring to the table but insults and avoidance. That is Pretrib.

Take any text and let us discuss.